Church Bashing
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JohnPaul
Soldier of Jehovah and Christ
You both should stop this nonsense you have going on and just get back to the peaceful conversation that was being had. There, now you BOTH can think me unloving and arrogant.
Taken
Well-Known Member
You are in error.
What JohnPaul has said, IS HE has accepted Jesus’ Offering of Conversion.
That is a done deal between him and the Lord God.
It is not JohnPaul’s requirement to FORGIVE MEN of “THEIR” sin Against God.
JohnPaul’s requirement is to FORGIVE MEN who have “TRESPASSED” Against “him”.
Men disagreeing with JohnPaul or JohnPaul disagreeing with other men IS NOT the other men causing JohnPaul HARM, or JohnPaul causing HARM to other men....
You are saying....JohnPaul should forgive men.......FOR WHAT?
Sin against God? NOT JohnPauls Authority.
JohnPaul should forgive men.......FOR WHAT TRESPASS against JohnPaul?
Name the Trespass that JohnPaul committed against a man...or another man committed against JohnPaul.... ??
Scripture is Specific.
God forgives SIN.
Men forgive men of Trespasses which the Trespass caused the individual HARM.
@David H. , I have some time right now to look. Sometimes the root words have a different direction or leaning that informs. If I don’t find anything there, I still have to wonder why translators used a different word in the same short sentence, to mean the same exact thing, and why it doesn’t fit with all of scripture. I’m not a Greek scholar, bank on that!
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Taken
Well-Known Member
Doesn’t matter what an other “THINKS”. You define yourself. You have been asking questions. Asking questions is neither “unloving or arrogant”!
They both are having a disagreement. Both understand “differently”.
Wrangler believes, JohnPaul should forgive all men that JohnPaul disagrees with, and all men that disagree with JohnPaul.
Disagreement between men, ARE NOT TRESPASSES between men.
Scripture teaches God forgive SINS of man Against God.
Scripture teaches Men forgive Trespasses men have committed against men.
NO ONE has identified a Trespass JohnPaul has committed against a man, or a Trespass a man has committed against JohnPaul.
yeah well, I’m definitely not going to help the nonsense there continue. Both are taking offense.
JohnPaul
Soldier of Jehovah and Christ
Taken
Well-Known Member
Your Freewill effected by you. I have no issue with that!
God Bless you.
Glory to God,
Taken
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
I am not in error. Church bashing ≠ rebuking those you love in Christ.
We agree Scripture is specific. However, we too have a burden to forgive.
Matthew 6:14-15
For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Taken
Well-Known Member
People SPEAK in generalities, without ever considering the bit by bit, step by step ORDER and WAY of precise meanings.
For the most part, individuals ARE NOT on the same page of SPECIFIC, Order, Way, OR PRECISE MEANINGS....thus the banter back and forth goes on and on and on....and turns PERSONAL....trying to erroneously tell each other what they think and believe.
A trespass between men MUST BE COMMITTED, before forgiveness between men can even be considered or given.
Wrangler is “equating” forgiveness with “love”....show the love OF Forgiveness...that he claims have not done....without identifying...WHAT trespass you “supposedly” committed against whom.
Nothing new on this forum or in general application between men.
Glory to God,
Taken
Taken
Well-Known Member
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
It's irrelevant to the OP.
Worse, you are taking something that is unconditional and attempting to make it conditional.
Taken
Well-Known Member
It is specifically relevant to your conversation with JohnPaul.
Forgiveness of God toward men, IS absolutely conditional....
A man MUST Believe IN HIS HEART IN the Lord God.
A man MUST ASK the Lord God for forgiveness FROM HIS HEARTS THOUGHTS.
“FOR TO”.....RECEIVE .... “NOW WHILE” THE MAN IS ALIVE IN HIS NATURAL FLESH...
THE ONCE and FOREVER .... forgiveness and works of Gods conversion IN THAT MAN.
Forgiveness of men toward men, IS absolutely conditional....OF A “TRESPASS. having BEEN COMMITTED”.
Men DISAGREEING with other men IS NOT A TRESPASS.
Men calling other men BY A TRUE DESCRIPTION is NOT A TRESPASS.
Men DISAGREEING with what a church teaches that is false IS NOT A TRESPASS.
Again...WHAT exactly are you claiming is JohnPaul’s TRESPASS, and Against WHOM exactly?
I think you are confusing the ability for men to forgive one another....WITH WHEN a man should forgive one another for COMMITTED trespasses.
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
Except that that would make the second death a misnomer. :)
Perhaps, if "death" doesn't really mean "death" then it seems possible that we should be careful not to be too ultra-literal in our interpretation of words like "eternal" and "torment."
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
It is not his place to judge other believers and certainly not to bash churches under any pretext. That is his trespass. It gives Christians a bad name.
Who the hell does he think he is?
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
I'm disturbed at the idea that we shouldn't judge doctrine. :)
We are told by Paul not only to exhort and encourage one another but to reprove and rebuke one another. We as believers in general need this, and as a body of believers (the church) more so or else the Rot of our sin nature takes over... the folly of pride.
Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.
Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be yet wiser: teach a just man, and he will increase in learning. (Proverbs 9:8-9)
I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. (2 Timothy 4:1-4)
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
It seems to me like it would give Christians a bad name if they went around using words like "hell" as a form of extreme expression having nothing to do with the actual meaning of the word itself, especially if that word's origin is sacred or solemn. I wonder what kind of words Peter used when he denied his Lord with cursing and swearing. Just a thought, or am I "bashing?"
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
There is no doctrinal purity test to be saved. That should tell you something.
I'm sure you agree there is a difference between merely judging something and engaging in Church Bashing, which is what this thread is about. Judging doctrine is not what this thread is about. There are 30,000 denominations. Why spend time on what denominations you don't agree with?
But the bigger point is not what is being judged but that some embrace judgmentalism. The yolk and burden of Christ is easy and light. We only have the burden to judge those we have authority over. Why do we take on this burden to judge others? It is the original sin, pride, leading to a God Complex. James is clear.
My brothers and sisters, do not assault each other with criticism. If you decide your job is to accuse and judge another believer, then you are a self-appointed critic and judge of the law; if so, then you are no longer a doer of the law and subject to its rule; you stand over it as a judge. 12 Know this—there is One who stands supreme as Judge and Lawgiver. He alone is able to save and to destroy, so who are you to step in and try to judge another?
James 4:11-12 (Voice)
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