Church Bashing

[Wrangler]

It seems to me like it would give Christians a bad name if they went around using words like "hell" as a form of extreme expression having nothing to do with the actual meaning of the word itself, especially if that word's origin is sacred or solemn.

IF.

I invoke the word to reinforce the pathway to destruction of the 1st sinner, Satan. His sin was pride, leading to a God complex. Who the hell did Satan think he is? God.

This led to his separation from God. Some say that is what hell is. What do you say?

 

[Wrangler]

We are told by Paul not only to exhort and encourage one another but to reprove and rebuke one another.

And you equate this with Church bashing?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Except that that would make the second death a misnomer.

Perhaps, if "death" doesn't really mean "death" then it seems possible that we should be careful not to be too ultra-literal in our interpretation of words like "eternal" and "torment."

@BarnyFife , you are a careful and wise man.

It all fits together if you take all of scripture together. It does NOT fit if you don’t take it all together. Scripture even says satan will be destroyed.

But here is something interesting…the verse we were talking about earlier, the word can be also translated more like…to the ages of ages. When put together with “tormented day and night” it begins to sound like…
Will be tormented day and night until the end of the ages. Eternity is the end of ages, and day and night will cease. So those words “day and night” have piqued my interest. Still working on it all. I wish someone smarter than me would do it, but I’m working on it. It’s difficult to set all assumptions aside to lock all of it into place. You have to say, this and this are true and that ALSO is true, and then you have to keep adding to it even though it doesn’t seem to fit. You are discovering what your assumptions are and casting them aside one by one, rather than changing meanings to make it lock into place with your assumptions. It’s like…a great detective novel!

 

[JohnPaul]

It is not his place to judge other believers and certainly not to bash churches under any pretext. That is his trespass. It gives Christians a bad name.

Who the hell does he think he is?

Who the hell do you think you are and what church have I bashed, if I’ve defended Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons.

 

[GaryAnderson]

Where did Mark go? Does anybody know what this means?

Yes we are.

Just the same, there is a way God deals with Man that is this way. In Adam, all die, in Christ, all are made alive. Transfered from darkness to Jesus' kingdom. Justification is a new identity, being a new creature, alive in Christ, sharing His identity, sharing His personhood, being transformed into His image.

Much love!

In Adam all die but in Christ they’re made alive?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Where did Mark go? Does anybody know what this means?




In Adam all die but in Christ they’re made alive?

1 Corinth 15:22 was what he was making reference to.

 

[GaryAnderson]

1 Corinth 15:22 was what he was making reference to.

Thank you.
I’ve seen some interesting opinions here on death and afterlife so I can’t tell when people are quoting scripture or when they’re expressing their opinions.

 

[APAK]

Where did Mark go? Does anybody know what this means?




In Adam all die but in Christ they’re made alive?

Read 1 Cor 15: 21-23...
The unsaved in this life, born and remain in their natural state of the first man, the 1st Adam, their soul will perish. The saved, in Christ, of the second man, 2nd Adam, will live because they will be resurrected to immortality.

 

[lilygrace]

i have not had a chance to read this whole thread in general yet ...so my response will be almost vague please take with a grain o fsalt.
from what i know unless im wrong it will be common for most if not all churches will begin to fade and teach wrong.
yet through my life i have a concern for someone who wishes to criticize almost every church. i believe people should want to meet other believers.
i am testing a church that i feel that i should not stay in permanently. i feel an urgency to leave it as soon as possible. i personally feel they water down and make a joke of scripture.
i like some solemnity when preaching about the virgin birth and its generally too personal to get into.
i dont pick apart a ministry based on their music unless i feel led.
i also no longer wish to be or pretend i am more spiritual than i am.

also i have nothing against books but i have discernment over what i feel might be wrongfully said.
i read the boundaries book before and they addressed procrastination which i believe personally is not redeeming time wisely or you are struggling with fear. but the authors compared it to Jesus' death and that he said it is finished. i personally found that to be wrong.

 

[lilygrace]

ever since iw as told i wasnt allowed to attend a program anymore i was told by my ex friend that i am allowed to go i just dont want to. i found this hurtful
i cannot drive and was offered a ride there but not one home. i declined. it is useless to me if i cant find a ride home.
my family personally said i wasnt allowed to go until i took the vaccine. i expressed this to some church people as well and they dismissed it as i was thinking that it was the church telling me i had to do this. it was not.
could they be in fear?

 

[David H.]

And you equate this with Church bashing?

I call it knocking men off their pedestal of pride as our sin nature is inclined to do, making us think that we know it all, have all doctrine figured out, and say "we are rich and in need of nothing".

The church as an institution of men has these same problems only multiplied and made into traditions of men. Change at this level comes only in reformations and sometimes revolutions.... God raising up a remnant that is Holy unto Himself... To replace the corrupt priesthood with a holy one.

 

[Wrangler]

Who the hell do you think you are and what church have I bashed, if I’ve defended Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons.

Great! What are you talking about then?

 

[Wrangler]

I call it knocking men off their pedestal of pride as our sin nature is inclined to do

I recall a couple of decades ago when several prominent pastors fell from grace in short order, e.g, Baker, Falwell, Catholic priests, et Al. It was their personal, moral behavior that got them in trouble, not their doctrine.


Also, I’d like to propose that holding accountable and rebuking someone you have a personal relationship with < publicly denigrating an entire denomination over doctrine.

None of us are perfect and doctrinal disputes are petty - in that there is no doctrinal purity test to be saved. I am convinced that most of the 30,000 denominations help and do good more than they harm and our orientation should be sadness when they fall/fail rather than piling on the self-righteous condemnations; prayers for them, not acrimonious barbs over doctrine.

 

[JohnPaul]

Great! What are you talking about then?

What are you talking about?
I’m only answering your post above where you accuse me of church bashing and then ask me what am I taking about.

 

[Wrangler]

What are you talking about?
I’m only answering your post above where you accuse me of church bashing and then ask me what am I taking about.

If you are not defending church bashing, my mistake. My apologies.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Wow…Hebrews 11:35…so that they might receive a better resurrection…
A better resurrection. Better than a less better resurrection…
So they knew trusting God led to a better resurrection. At least some of them did.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Great! What are you talking about then?

Lol...
I didn't actually note anyone bashing any denomination. Even I was just bashing untrue doctrine.

 

[David H.]

I recall a couple of decades ago when several prominent pastors fell from grace in short order, e.g, Baker, Falwell, Catholic priests, et Al. It was their personal, moral behavior that got them in trouble, not their doctrine.

It was their doctrine that got them into their moral degeneracy. Their pride of place.... God knocked them off their pedestal, but it took men and women to expose their immoral behavior.

None of us are perfect and doctrinal disputes are petty - in that there is no doctrinal purity test to be saved.

True none of us are perfect in our doctrinal understanding: "we all know in part" as Paul writes. But there most certainly is a "doctrinal Purity test". We are Told to test the Spirits to see if they are of God (1 John 4:1-6), We are told to "earnestly contend for the faith" (Jude 1:3), We are told "there must be heresies among us that they which are approved may be made manifest among us" (1 Corinthians 11:19), We are Told to judge them within the church (1 Corinthians 5:9-13), Exhort and edify, yes, but sometimes we are called to rebuke and correct. In fact, most of the Epistles were written as rebukes and corrections of problems in the churches they were addressed to, whether Judaizers in Galatians or Gnostics in 1 John, or false teachers in 2 Peter and Jude. Were the apostles guilty of "church bashing"?

 

[Enoch111]

...Perhaps, if "death" doesn't really mean "death"...

Death means SEPARATION. Physical death = separation of soul and spirit from the body. Second death = eternal separation from God in the Lake of Fire.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Another verse, the one that says God does not desire that any perish.
Again though, perish must mean live forever in torment, right?