Church Bashing

[marks]

They are righteous. That’s what it says. You are very correct that faith is not mentioned there.
This is the second resurrection. I’m pretty sure…

The second group are told, I never knew you.

This is when Jesus returns to the earth at the end of the great tribulation.

Much love!

 

[David H.]

If you read it as prophecy, that's what the prophecy says. That's what Jesus prophesied would be done. Do you disagree with whether the words mean everlasting, and torment? Or do you see "torment" meaning "cessation of existence? How is it that you do not see Jesus saying that the unrighteous will be sent to everlasting torment? Or that you don't think that's what's going to happen?

Everlasting means forever. Living forever means forever living. Dying forever means forever dead.

I Actually agree with @marks here. It does not say "eternal death", but eternal torment, Unquenchable thirst, or the fire that never shall be quenched (Mark 9:45). What happens when death and hell are cast into the lake of fire as found in Revelation 20:14, Aka the "second death" i believe is uncertain what that exactly entails?

 

[marks]

Those are some of the socks that don't fit in the Reformation suitcase.

I joined this discussion late, so I didn't see your interpretation of these verses. If you have already done so, can you point me to them?

Could you also please explain your understanding of what purpose it serves God to torment human beings for ever and ever?

This will open the wormy can . . .

After the great tribulation, Jesus will come to the earth, and all surviving Israel will be reborn, and regathered to Israel. After that, Jesus takes His earthly throne to rule for 1000 years. The surviving nations aside from Israel are gathered and judged according to how they treated God's chosen nation during this great tribulation. Correlate this to Matthew 10 as well, and Joel 3. There are other places also.

Those who survive this judgment will live in this 1000 year kingdom, those who don't are sent into everlasting torment. This judgment does not correlate to the present day. Just as there was a change at the giving of the Law, and there was a change at the death and resurrection of Christ, and there will be a change when Jesus sits on His throne, there is also a change here, this among other evidences show a change at the beginning of a final 7 year stretch ending when Jesus returns. Without acknowledging and understanding these differences, we won't find the harmony.

To answer your question what purpose suffering serves, I have few clues. One of those is from Peter, "he who has suffered has ceased from sin", something like that. Suffering commands our attention, but does not violate our will. Perhaps sufficient suffering is God's way of ending sin in the sinner without a violation of their will. Perhaps the more ingrained a person is in their iniquity, the greater the suffering that will be required to keep them focused on the suffering instead of the iniquity. Mind you I speak of things I don't know!

Much love!

 

[marks]

If both the container and it’s contents are destroyed, what is left?
If both body and soul (will, thoughts, emotions) are destroyed, what is left?

Something that was already dead, something that God created alive, but died the day they ate. Something God created durable, but can only be described as "alive" if it's connected to God. Break that connection and life turns to death, and death remains unless turned back to life. For a time, it can be turned back to life, but the second death ends that possibility.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Born to eternal torment vs. born to privilege doesn't sit well with me either.

I don't see humanity as a collection of individuals. I think the Bible shows humanity as a single thing, Man, and that to look at man, you look at what looks like a massive tree of billions of people, all going back to Noah, and then to Adam. God created Man, and Man began to unfold. But not according to what was good.

When Levi paid tithes in Abraham, when Adam with one transgression killed Man, all humanity, that tree died. Mankind continued to unfold over the centuries, but all dead, twice dead, to be cut down.

A new Tree, the Tree of Life, baptised into Jesus, moved from death to life, from the first Man to the Last Man, the Lord of Heaven, hid with Christ in God, to appear with Him when He appears. From condemnation to justification.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I Actually agree with @marks here. It does not say "eternal death", but eternal torment, Unquenchable thirst, or the fire that never shall be quenched (Mark 9:45). What happens when death and hell are cast into the lake of fire as found in Revelation 20:14, Aka the "second death" i believe is uncertain what that exactly entails?

In that verse, yes. But two different words were used. I’d need to look into why translators used two different words rather than the same word.

 

[Brakelite]

Church bashing...
KJV Isaiah 58:1-5
1 Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and shew my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins
2 Yet they seek me daily, and delight to know my ways, as a nation that did righteousness, and forsook not the ordinance of their God: they ask of me the ordinances of justice; they take delight in approaching to God
3 Wherefore have we fasted, say they, and thou seest not? wherefore have we afflicted our soul, and thou takest no knowledge? Behold, in the day of your fast ye find pleasure, and exact all your labours
4 Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as ye do this day, to make your voice to be heard on high
5 Is it such a fast that I have chosen? a day for a man to afflict his soul? is it to bow down his head as a bulrush, and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him? wilt thou call this a fast, and an acceptable day to the LORD

 

[Wrangler]

shew my people their transgression

Who is God talking to? Not us.

 

[Lambano]

I don't see humanity as a collection of individuals. I think the Bible shows humanity as a single thing, Man, and that to look at man, you look at what looks like a massive tree of billions of people, all going back to Noah, and then to Adam. God created Man, and Man began to unfold. But not according to what was good.

When Levi paid tithes in Abraham, when Adam with one transgression killed Man, all humanity, that tree died. Mankind continued to unfold over the centuries, but all dead, twice dead, to be cut down.

A new Tree, the Tree of Life, baptised into Jesus, moved from death to life, from the first Man to the Last Man, the Lord of Heaven, hid with Christ in God, to appear with Him when He appears. From condemnation to justification.

Much love!

Are we not both a single organism and individuals?

 

[Lambano]

After the great tribulation, Jesus will come to the earth, and all surviving Israel will be reborn, and regathered to Israel. After that, Jesus takes His earthly throne to rule for 1000 years. The surviving nations aside from Israel are gathered and judged according to how they treated God's chosen nation during this great tribulation. Correlate this to Matthew 10 as well, and Joel 3. There are other places also.

Okay. I correlate it with the Great White Throne Judgement. But I was taught to be suspicious of those who try to establish an eschatological timeline.

To answer your question what purpose suffering serves, I have few clues. One of those is from Peter, "he who has suffered has ceased from sin", something like that. Suffering commands our attention, but does not violate our will. Perhaps sufficient suffering is God's way of ending sin in the sinner without a violation of their will. Perhaps the more ingrained a person is in their iniquity, the greater the suffering that will be required to keep them focused on the suffering instead of the iniquity. Mind you I speak of things I don't know!

Nor do I know. Can suffering then be redemptive? That is, if suffering finally brings repentance, will the punishment cease?

 

[marks]

Are we not both a single organism and individuals?

Yes we are.

Just the same, there is a way God deals with Man that is this way. In Adam, all die, in Christ, all are made alive. Transfered from darkness to Jesus' kingdom. Justification is a new identity, being a new creature, alive in Christ, sharing His identity, sharing His personhood, being transformed into His image.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Okay. I correlate it with the Great White Throne Judgement. But I was taught to be suspicious of those who try to establish an eschatological timeline.

I just leave it where it is. When He comes in glory, He will sit on His throne of glory, and divide the nations. The timeline is established in the passage, very simply stated.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Nor do I know. Can suffering then be redemptive? That is, if suffering finally brings repentance, will the punishment cease?

I don't see where repentance is offered after that point.

Much love!

 

[Lambano]

I don’t think a holy person, a person actually walking IN the Spirit, would say someone who cast out demons was working by satans power. I wouldn’t call those men holy…

For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. - Deuteronomy 7:6

But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; -1 Peter 2:9

(I'm just sassin' you.)

In the Incarnation, the Holy and the Broken meet.

 

[Lambano]

I don't see where repentance is offered after that point.

Much love!

Repentance happens. (I think I'll make a bumper sticker out of that one.)

 

[Lambano]

Yes we are.

Just the same, there is a way God deals with Man that is this way. In Adam, all die, in Christ, all are made alive. Transfered from darkness to Jesus' kingdom. Justification is a new identity, being a new creature, alive in Christ, sharing His identity, sharing His personhood, being transformed into His image.

Much love!

But not all who are in Adam join Christ and become alive. So there is an individual selection process at work.

 

[marks]

But not all who are in Adam join Christ and become alive. So there is an individual selection process at work.

Agreed!

Much love!

 

[marks]

Repentance happens. (I think I'll make a bumper sticker out of that one.)

God grants repentance. He also requires it. I don't see where it just happens on it's own, either God repents us, or we repent, from metanoia, to have a different mind, the "after-mind", the result of an exchange.

Much love!

 

[Lambano]

God grants repentance. He also requires it. I don't see where it just happens on it's own, either God repents us, or we repent, from metanoia, to have a different mind, the "after-mind", the result of an exchange.

Much love!

Nah. People change their minds all the time. Or to use the Hebrew term, shwub, to turn around. People turn around all the time.

 

[GaryAnderson]

Yes we are.

Just the same, there is a way God deals with Man that is this way. In Adam, all die, in Christ, all are made alive. Transfered from darkness to Jesus' kingdom. Justification is a new identity, being a new creature, alive in Christ, sharing His identity, sharing His personhood, being transformed into His image.

Much love!

What does this mean? I don’t understand it.
In Adam all die but in Christ we are made alive?