Church Bashing

[marks]

The only thing resembling a truly eternal torment I have found is outer darkness. And it seems like those verses in those places deal with people who are surprised and shocked that they’re going there, like they truly thought they wouldn’t go there. But for God to say I never knew you and throw them into that outer darkness would mean they HAVE eternal life, so…

Jesus foretold eternal torment in the fire, so something needs to be worked out.

Those surprised to be rejected . . . yes, there are plenty of people who claim that to be NT Christians. Who did Jesus say it to? Was that who?

Or was it to those who insisted having Abraham as their father was enough? HEY! We're ISRAEL. But they were not born again, and rejected the Messiah. Being children of Abraham wasn't enough.

If we keep the parables in their contexts, and to whom they are addressed, then we find harmony with everything else. There is no "tension" as if the reconciled get unreconciled.

When you apply that to a child of God then it gets all tangled up, and conflicts abound.

Much love!

 

[marks]

In the end, does "might make right"? Whoever carries the biggest stick determines what right and wrong is?

@marks, my brother, that's what I wanted you to think about.

Of course not. I'm not sure what I may have said that led you to think I'd think that way.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

All right, fair enough. Yet believing two contradictory premises is basically the definition of "Cognitive Dissonance". So what then is the purpose of this arguing if it's not to persuade those who hold the contradictory view? The exploration may be helpful to reveal additional truths that you didn't see before, you may even be persuaded in that the other position was correct all along, but in the end, you're still stuck with cognitive dissonance. And to do what? Display our exegetical skills? To demonstrate our fidelity to a book that only points us to the One in who we should trust?

39 You examine the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is those very Scriptures that testify about Me; 40 and yet you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

Cognitive dissonance is a tool used by interrogators to destabilize the subject and make them more pliable for whatever purposes the interrogators intend. Usually for evil.

…it isn’t cognitive dissonance to say: yes, but God has ALSO said such and such. Jesus answered satan that way. It is to try to understand the verses TOGETHER instead of setting them to war with one another. Okay, so one man may be trying to teach and won’t look at ALL the verses as true but will instead change one verse to fit his understanding of another but that doesn’t bother me. God will get the man where God wants the man.

 

[marks]

People who study the Bible seriously recognize these tensions really exist and understand that life is about making important decisions with insufficient data and accepting the consequences.

I've found that those who feel there is a contradiction - tension, they like to say - simply haven't understood it.

But I get it about making the decisions and accepting the consequences. God help us!

Much love!

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I can do your second request after I get ready to go. Your first request will be impossible for me. Ask anyone and they will tell you!

lol. Don’t feel alone I have the same problem. Too many words

 

[marks]

The problem today is people believe what their taught by man and not by God.

I think the problem is first that people don't want to believe in God, and then second that they don't want to believe God, then thirdly that they don't know how to believe God.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

We’ve come to some real good in this thread. Not everyone can see it but…real good!Total understanding? No. More understanding? Yes!

Just the fact that we’ve seen God judges and gives differing degrees of punishment to different men is wonderful to know!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

When we got around to arguing how many resurrections there will be, I realized I can't play this game anymore. I can't take the cognitive dissonance that's required. If some of my brothers and sisters disfellowship me for that, so be it.

You don’t much care for puzzles I take it?

 

[marks]

Cognitive dissonance is a tool used by interrogators to destabilize the subject and make them more pliable for whatever purposes the interrogators intend. Usually for evil.

Yes, I think so also. It can be something people impose on themselves in an effort to stabilize their minds in the midst of conflicting beliefs, and it can be a weapon against someone to disconnect them from sound reasoning process.

Maybe the idea is "if I can feed you that lie, here are some more . . ."

But I've also found that these sorts of discussions can feel VERY threatening to some, as they find their views challenged, but are afraid of letting them go.

To me the answer is to, well, like @amadeus would say, take the lowest room. When I come to the Bible I know nothing. I read what I read. I accept it's truth, in whatever sort of language it is. I do my very best to not deny the full value of every single word.

First, it's understand the words themselves. THEN start trying to understand the sentence and THEN the paragraph, and so on. How many read a verse and mentally edit it to make it fit their view? In over 20 years on forums, I can't tell you how many times I've seen this.

"For you have died, and your life is hid with Christ in God".

Much love!

 

[marks]

…it isn’t cognitive dissonance to say: yes, but God has ALSO said such and such. Jesus answered satan that way. It is to try to understand the verses TOGETHER instead of setting them to war with one another. Okay, so one man may be trying to teach and won’t look at ALL the verses as true but will instead change one verse to fit his understanding of another but that doesn’t bother me. God will get the man where God wants the man.

Amen!!

Much love!

 

[marks]

lol. Don’t feel alone I have the same problem. Too many words

Me too.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Yet believing two contradictory premises is basically the definition of "Cognitive Dissonance".

You mean like…


4 Don’t answer the foolish arguments of fools,
or you will become as foolish as they are.
5 Be sure to answer the foolish arguments of fools,
or they will become wise in their own estimation.

So it’s cognitive dissonance to believe these are both true since God has said them both?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Jesus mentions the outer darkness 3 times. They are all in the book of Mathew. It doesn’t sound like they are unbelievers.

Im leaning toward a purgatorial sort of place for the outer darkness, a place where you will not come out until you pay the last farthing such as the man whose debt was forgiven but then did not also forgive another mans debt. A sort of…being put on a stool with your back to everyone when you were a bad child.

If you examine the three places Jesus teaches about the outer darkness, you don’t come away with the impression of them being annihilated but rather a place of shame.

And we know some will receive more stripes and some less.

My friend thinks outer darkness is forever. My hope is it is just during the millennium.

 

[David H.]

Jesus mentions the outer darkness 3 times. They are all in the book of Mathew. It doesn’t sound like they are unbelievers.

Im leaning toward a purgatorial sort of place for the outer darkness, a place where you will not come out until you pay the last farthing such as the man whose debt was forgiven but then did not also forgive another mans debt. A sort of…being put on a stool with your back to everyone when you were a bad child.

If you examine the three places Jesus teaches about the outer darkness, you don’t come away with the impression of them being annihilated but rather a place of shame.

And we know some will receive more stripes and some less.

My friend thinks outer darkness is forever. My hope is it is just during the millennium.

Or they will miss out on the first resurrection and the millennium and come to life at the second resurrection.... ??

 

[marks]

You mean like…


4 Don’t answer the foolish arguments of fools,
or you will become as foolish as they are.
5 Be sure to answer the foolish arguments of fools,
or they will become wise in their own estimation.

So it’s cognitive dissonance to believe these are both true since God has said them both?

There's no dissonance there.

Proverbs 26:4-5 KJV
4) Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
5) Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

They are both shown what they mean by their intent.

Lest thou be like him, you are conceding. Don't answer a fool in his folly so that you will also be like him.

Lest he be wise in his own conceit, you are rebuking. Answer a fool according to his folly so that he won't think he is wise in his conceit.

Much love!

 

[David H.]

Or they will miss out on the first resurrection and the millennium and come to life at the second resurrection.... ??

See Revelation 20:5-6

 

[Enoch111]

Im leaning toward a purgatorial sort of place for the outer darkness...

Since Purgatory is a complete fiction, you are leaning towards fantasies instead of truth. In effect, you are becoming wiser than God. It would be far better to simply accept what the Bible says (whether or not you can figure it out). That's called faith.

The Lake of Fire is in outer darkness (outside of space) and it is indeed eternal. Only God knows and only God decides.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Or they will miss out on the first resurrection and the millennium and come to life at the second resurrection.... ??

It’s a LOT to try to sort out. But I can’t find a place for outer darkness except as a purgatorial darkness. But yes…at the second resurrection would fit…one thing’s for certain - it does not fit to say it’s the lake of fire!
There might be another place that mentions it as “outside the gate” in Revelation 22:15…not sure.

The very good video I found on YouTube of E. L. Fudge speaking has a story a rabbi he knew talking about them hearing a song sung in heaven and saying, hey, that’s a really good song…let’s sing it here too! And God saying, hey, listen, they’re singing our song, they should be here singing it with us! I know it’s not scripture but I really liked it.

 

[marks]

My friend thinks outer darkness is forever.

Matthew 8:10-13 KJV
10) When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
11) And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12) But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
13) And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.

Matthew 22:8-14 KJV
8) Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9) Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
10) So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
11) And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
12) And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13) Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14) For many are called, but few are chosen.

Matthew 25:28-30 KJV
28) Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29) For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30) And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Do you want to look at these?

I don't know that outer darkness is in the lake of fire, and I don't know that outer darkness is forever.

Matthew 25:10 KJV
And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

Does "the children of the kingdom" equal "the children of God"? Or are we talking about the kingdom promised to Israel that they rejected in their unbelief?

Is the man without the wedding garment a child of God who was stripped of his life in Christ? Or is it one who didn't come in the right way, and thought he could stay?

Is the unprofitable servant again a child of God? Who did nothing, and has nothing?

There is no comment of the duration of the outer darkness, or the location, only the misery.

Much love!

 

[marks]

The Lake of Fire is in outer darkness (outside of space) and it is indeed eternal. Only God knows and only God decides.

That's what makes the most sense to me, but then, we're not given much info. But I don't believe it relates to some purgatorial exprience, repudiates grace.

It seems to me that there is a lot of "teaching" about something of which we're given virtually no information.

Much love!