Church Bashing

[marks]

Sometimes it is necessary to invoke the concept of paradox. Why do we embrace this fact with some texts and refuse to consider it with others?

We should go through these one by one and demystify them. But tomorrow. My time to go.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Fear has torment. The unrighteous are sent to everlasting torment.

OK, that's really all I can say. Because those are the only two places that word is used in Scripture.

Much love!

The only thing resembling a truly eternal torment I have found is outer darkness. And it seems like those verses in those places deal with people who are surprised and shocked that they’re going there, like they truly thought they wouldn’t go there. But for God to say I never knew you and throw them into that outer darkness would mean they HAVE eternal life, so…

 

[BarneyFife]

We should go through these one by one and demystify them. But tomorrow. My time to go.

Much love!

They don't mystify me at all.

I'm afraid I've failed to make my point. :)

 

[quietthinker]

Yes, death is indead death!

And you, being dead in trespasses . . . is this death?

@stunnedbygrace mentioned not being able to unsee what she'd seen, myself, I wonder that people can't see what I see. The one who has died is freed from sin.

Reckon yourself therefore dead unto sin and alive unto God.

There is so much more to death and life than a light switch on our existence. It's about us and God. Life and death are words of relationship and separation. And like what she said, it's all over the place!

God said to Adam, on the day you eat of that tree, dying you will die. Did God lie? No! Let God be true, and every man a liar! On that day, Adam most certainly did die. Or God lied to Adam. It's one or the other.

Much love!

Not sure how to approach this but consider these texts you quoted...'The one who has died is freed from sin'.....'Reckon yourself therefore dead unto sin and alive unto God'.....understand the difference between being dead and reckoning yourself dead.
Now if we look at 'dead' in the way you categorise it, we end up with a hotch-potch.

 

[quietthinker]

The ordinary person on the street knows there is an eternal Hell.

your statement here is too wild and smacks of desperation.

 

[Enoch111]

Hell is eventually thrown into the lake of fire. So is death.

You are now more confused than ever. That word is "Hades" not "Hell" (even though the KJV translators used "hell" mistakenly). So what does the Bible mean when it says that Death and Hades were cast into the Lake of Fire?

Sheol/Hades is the region of the unsaved dead at present (located in the lower parts of the earth or "the heart of the earth). That is where their souls are awaiting judgment. As we see in the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, Death and Hades are personified riding on a pale horse. We know that that cannot be taken literally. So when Death and Hades are cast into the Lake of Fire it means (a) death is terminated at that time (there will be no more physical death on earth) and (b) Hades will have served its purpose, therefore Hades is also terminated at that point.

But what you fail to grasp is that the Lake of Fire and its torment is for eternity (Rev 20:10). You assume eternal torment = eternal life, when it is the EXACT OPPOSITE.

 

[Enoch111]

your statement here is too wild and smacks of desperation.

Have you heard people using the word "Hell" as a swear word? Next time just ask the person who uses it "Is Hell a place of eternal torment?" and see what he says.

 

[quietthinker]

Revelation 14:9-11 LITV
9) And a third angel followed them, saying in a great voice, If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives a mark on his forehead, or in his hand,
10) he also shall drink of the wine of the anger of God having been mixed undiluted in the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented by fire and brimstone before the holy angels and before the Lamb.
11) And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. And those worshiping the beast and its image have no rest night and day, even if anyone receives the mark of its name.

What do you do with this?

9) First, the beast, it's image and its mark....and the meaning of it location needs to be identified.
10) Second, 'the wine of the anger of God' and 'the cup of his wrath' needs identifying
11) Third, why is it so critical?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Have you heard people using the word "Hell" as a swear word? Next time just ask the person who uses it "Is Hell a place of eternal torment?" and see what he says.

So your argument is since the majority of people think it, it’s correct?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

But what you fail to grasp is that the Lake of Fire and its torment is for eternity

And what you fail to grasp is that just because the majority think something is true doesn’t necessarily mean it is.

 

[Brakelite]

Who understands the true nature of evil and sin? Who understands what rebellion against God looks like from His point of view?

Bad enough to cost the Son of God His life, and to risk His own eternal existence to redeem us.

 

[Brakelite]

I don't think that of you. I'm wanting to point to the infinite gap between He and us, His mind and our minds.

Much love!

Without attempting to equate our mind precisely as God thinks, I would suggest that scripture does support the idea of having the mind of Christ... Recreated in the image of God, which is why we are horrified regarding abortion, tyranny, persecution, and other equally appalling atrocities such as genocide. These things we rightly regard as evil in every sense of the word. Yet when we believe God does it's justice?

 

[quietthinker]

“… the earth abideth for ever.” — Ecclesiastes 1:4

“… the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.” — 2Peter 3:10

“… I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.” — Genesis 32:30

“No man hath seen God at any time…”– John 1:18

“The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father…” — Ezekiel 18:20

“I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation…” — Exodus 20:5

“Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man.” — James 1:13

“And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham…” — Genesis 22:1

“…he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more. ” — Job 7:9

“…the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth….” — John 5:28-29

“… with God all things are possible.” — Matthew 19:26

“…The LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.” — Judges 1:19

Sometimes it is necessary to invoke the concept of paradox. Why do we embrace this fact with some texts and refuse to consider it with others?

These texts are a worthy challenge. This challenge taken up with an open heart reveals much about whose perspective. When it is seen the obvious becomes evident nullifying any contradiction.

 

[Lambano]

Without attempting to equate our mind precisely as God thinks, I would suggest that scripture does support the idea of having the mind of Christ... Recreated in the image of God, which is why we are horrified regarding abortion, tyranny, persecution, and other equally appalling atrocities such as genocide. These things we rightly regard as evil in every sense of the word. Yet when we believe God does it's justice?

In the end, does "might make right"? Whoever carries the biggest stick determines what right and wrong is?

@marks, my brother, that's what I wanted you to think about.

 

[quietthinker]

And I don’t assume God is out to confuse me by making darkness to mean fire, death to mean eternal life and black to mean white. So there are also a lot of assumptions you make that others don’t.
That’s it for me now with you. If I want to have continual argument and picking over words I can go argue with my PA mother and make her very happy. I can’t unsee what I’ve seen no matter HOW hard you want to argue that when God says darkness He means fire and when He says death He means life! It’s just a waste of time. I want it to make sense, not change what darkness means.

@stunnedbygrace....without saying a whole lot of words, please watch this presentation...thanks.
vOipjP-8q6Y

 

[Lambano]

These texts are a worthy challenge. This challenge taken up with an open heart reveals much about whose perspective. When it is seen the obvious becomes evident nullifying any contradiction.

What if there really are contradictions?

Matthew says Judas Iscariot hanged himself (Matthew 27:5), while Dr. Luke rather graphically says he splattered his guts out after a fall (Acts 1:15-20). The inerrantist logical premise requires us to invent something that's not in the text, like he was hanging himself from a really tall oak tree and the rope broke ... For all we know, the real story is that Simon Zelotes slit Judas's throat in some Jerusalem back alley. Zealots know how to handle traitors.

See, @stunnedbygrace, my friend and sister in Christ whom I respect and even, y'know, like, I really am a heretic because I am forced to deny the logical premise of Biblical Inerrancy. While these back-and-forth volleys of Scripture may be an enjoyable and informative learning exercise for the mind and the soul, few people actually change their minds because there are real tensions in the text. And so, faithful men and women still debate the tension between God's sovereignty and Man's responsibility 411 years after the Articles of Remonstrance were published. People who study the Bible seriously recognize these tensions really exist and understand that life is about making important decisions with insufficient data and accepting the consequences.

When God healed me, I saw that Jesus revealed a loving and merciful, yet just, God. This is my basic premise. It requires that I prioritize those texts that reveal God's love and mercy. Don't look at me like that; we all do it, we all have our priorities, our mental images and mental models of God. We're all idolators. My understanding of God is necessarily limited, and I know I'm going to be wrong somewhere. I cannot have certainty, so I must have Faith. Faith requires that I trust God to dispose of the unsaved in a just, yet merciful manner. I accept the harsh words and imagery without taking it completely literally. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, and I must accept the consequences when I stand before Jesus myself in the Judgment. It's the only way I found that I could live with myself.

Signed,
Lambano the Heretic, and may God have mercy on his soul.

 

[Daniel Veler]

I've heard enough generalized church bashing to last the rest of my life.

God tells us that if we create division in the body of Christ, be warned, if you destroy God's temple, He will destroy you.

Jesus said, Upon this rock I will build My church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

But how many have a heard declare, "Western Christianity is a failure", "the church has become corrupt", on and on it goes.

Well, I have a couple of responses. First of which, if this is your experience, find a new church to attend! Seek until you find faithful believers. They are there. God will lead you to them.

Secondly, how in the world do you know what my church is like? Simple answer. You don't. So why make out like it's all so rotten? Does that make you feel better to sit over all of Christendom in judgment? Think about it.

And thirdly, who are you helping in telling everyone there isn't any good church anywhere? Why not be good church?

OK, I could go on, but, rant over.

Much love!

You thinking on this matter isn’t clear are you saying the denominations are the church or those in Christ. If you want to know if the denomination is write for you understanding what their putting out. Read the seven letters in Revelation to see if you denomination is guilty or not. The problem today is people believe what their taught by man and not by God. The apostle wrote that we have been given the Holy Spirit and we don’t need men to teach us anything the Holy Spirit will teach us. But in most cases man will not ask the Lord but excepts things that sound good by their leaders.

 

[quietthinker]

What if there really are contradictions?

there is still much to learn

 

[Lambano]

there is still much to learn

Indeed.

12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully, just as I also have been fully known. 13 But now faith, hope, and love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love. (1 Corinthians 13:12-13)

 

[Lambano]

I couldn't take the cognitive dissonance.

The less I seek my source for some definitive,
The closer I am to "fine"
(Indigo Girls, Closer to Fine)