Church Bashing

[stunnedbygrace]

Since Purgatory is a complete fiction, you are leaning towards fantasies instead of truth. In effect, you are becoming wiser than God. It would be far better to simply accept what the Bible says (whether or not you can figure it out). That's called faith.

The Lake of Fire is in outer darkness (outside of space) and it is indeed eternal. Only God knows and only God decides.

25Reconcile quickly with your adversary, while you are still on the way to court. Otherwise, he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26Truly I tell you, you will not get outuntil you have paid the last penny.

And also:
23 “Therefore, the Kingdom of Heaven can be compared to a king who decided to bring his accounts up to date with servants who had borrowed money from him. 24 In the process, one of his debtors was brought in who owed him millions of dollars. 25 He couldn’t pay, so his master ordered that he be sold—along with his wife, his children, and everything he owned—to pay the debt.

26 “But the man fell down before his master and begged him, ‘Please, be patient with me, and I will pay it all.’ 27 Then his master was filled with pity for him, and he released him and forgave his debt.

28 “But when the man left the king, he went to a fellow servant who owed him a few thousand dollars. He grabbed him by the throat and demanded instant payment.

29 “His fellow servant fell down before him and begged for a little more time. ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it,’ he pleaded. 30 But his creditor wouldn’t wait. He had the man arrested and put in prison until the debt could be paid in full.

31 “When some of the other servants saw this, they were very upset. They went to the king and told him everything that had happened. 32 Then the king called in the man he had forgiven and said, ‘You evil servant! I forgave you that tremendous debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Shouldn’t you have mercy on your fellow servant, just as I had mercy on you?’ 34 Then the angry king sent the man to prison to be tortured until he had paid his entire debt.

35 “That’s what my heavenly Father will do to you if you refuse to forgive your brothers and sisters from your heart.”

Read them and pay attention. They are not the lake of fire. They are more along the lines of a prison/purgatorial type place.

 

[marks]

There might be another place that mentions it as “outside the gate” in Revelation 22:15…not sure.

This is something else I've considered.

Much love!

 

[marks]

25Reconcile quickly with your adversary, while you are still on the way to court. Otherwise, he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26Truly I tell you, you will not get outuntil you have paid the last penny.

And also:
23 “Therefore, the Kingdom of Heaven can be compared to a king who decided to bring his accounts up to date with servants who had borrowed money from him. 24 In the process, one of his debtors was brought in who owed him millions of dollars. 25 He couldn’t pay, so his master ordered that he be sold—along with his wife, his children, and everything he owned—to pay the debt.

26 “But the man fell down before his master and begged him, ‘Please, be patient with me, and I will pay it all.’ 27 Then his master was filled with pity for him, and he released him and forgave his debt.

28 “But when the man left the king, he went to a fellow servant who owed him a few thousand dollars. He grabbed him by the throat and demanded instant payment.

29 “His fellow servant fell down before him and begged for a little more time. ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it,’ he pleaded. 30 But his creditor wouldn’t wait. He had the man arrested and put in prison until the debt could be paid in full.

31 “When some of the other servants saw this, they were very upset. They went to the king and told him everything that had happened. 32 Then the king called in the man he had forgiven and said, ‘You evil servant! I forgave you that tremendous debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Shouldn’t you have mercy on your fellow servant, just as I had mercy on you?’ 34 Then the angry king sent the man to prison to be tortured until he had paid his entire debt.

35 “That’s what my heavenly Father will do to you if you refuse to forgive your brothers and sisters from your heart.”

Read them and pay attention. They are not the lake of fire. They are more along the lines of a prison/purgatorial type place.

Parables have a purpose and a place. I don't believe the place of that parable is to tell a NT child of God that there are sins which were not reconciled by Christ of which you can now have removed by your own pain and suffering.

For one thing, that takes a very light view of sin in my opinion. Sin is not removed by my pain and suffering. Without the shedding of blood (the life is in the blood) sins cannot be sent away.

If sin can be removed in something you do, like suffer, then Jesus didn't have to die.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The Lake of Fire is in outer darkness (outside of space) and it is indeed eternal. Only God knows and only God decides.

Are you sure about that? It looks to me like YOU might already know and have decided.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

35 “That’s what my heavenly Father will do to you if you refuse to forgive your brothers and sisters from your heart.”

Matthew 6:21-23 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. [22] The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. [23] But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

Luke 11:34-36 The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but when thine eye is evil, thy body also is full of darkness. [35] Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness. [36] If thy whole body therefore be full of light, having no part dark, the whole shall be full of light, as when the bright shining of a candle doth give thee light.

1 John 2:11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.

?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Parables have a purpose and a place. I don't believe the place of that parable is to tell a NT child of God that there are sins which were not reconciled by Christ of which you can now have removed by your own pain and suffering.

For one thing, that takes a very light view of sin in my opinion. Sin is not removed by my pain and suffering. Without the shedding of blood (the life is in the blood) sins cannot be sent away.

If sin can be removed in something you do, like suffer, then Jesus didn't have to die.

Much love!

All I can say is read it more carefully. Especially the end punishment for not forgiving after you were forgiven. It isn’t lake of fire for that man. It is a “prison” that he won’t come out of until he has paid the last farthing. It is a purgatorial type place. It is like:
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

 

[marks]

All I can say is read it more carefully. Especially the end punishment for not forgiving after you were forgiven. It isn’t lake of fire for that man. It is a “prison” that he won’t come out of until he has paid the last farthing. It is a purgatorial type place. It is like:
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Hear me on this. If sin can be removed by our own suffering, Jesus didn't have to die.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Hear me on this. If sin can be removed by our own suffering, Jesus didn't have to die.

Much love!

Okay, then keep arguing. Keep refusing to look at what I layed out.
Redefine what “prison” means. Redefine what “more stripes and less stripes” means. Redefine what “so my Father will do” means.

I mean, I look at it with hope for that man. Better to be a live dog put in a cage for a bit than a dead dog!

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Hear me on this. If sin can be removed by our own suffering, Jesus didn't have to die.

Much love!

how else would the way to the Father be manifest unless Christ revealed the way? Otherwise …who would believe to be brought low …unless He was brought low and suffered; that through His Spirit where He said I am humble and with lowly in spirit …that sounds unbelievable? What of: come to Me all you who are heavy and you will find rest. What of 1 Peter 4:1-19

Does none of the above apply because you often hear quoted “Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind…” but then I often hear that isn’t for today…then my question is: is all the suffering today just for sin? Is there any: Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. [4] But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
James 1:3-4

 

[marks]

how else would the way to the Father be manifest unless Christ revealed the way? Otherwise …who would believe to be brought low …unless He was brought low and suffered; that through His Spirit where He said I am humble and with lowly in spirit …that sounds unbelievable? What of: come to Me all you who are heavy and you will find rest. What of 1 Peter 4:1-19

Does none of the above apply because you often hear quoted “Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind…” but then I often hear that isn’t for today…then my question is: is all the suffering today just for sin? Is there any: Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. [4] But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
James 1:3-4

This is in the renewing of our minds, not that we pay for our sins, because if we want to cover the price of our sins, the lake of fire awaits us. We will have to die in our sins, and will suffer the second death.

Or, we receive the Risen Savior, and instead of having to pay with our own death, Jesus shares His death with us.

We are baptized into His death,

Romans 6:3-4 KJV
3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

It came to me last night why it is that we are not "baptised into His resurrection". I've wondered that over the years. We are baptized into His death, and buried with Him in baptism. We are put into Him as He died, we are in Him as He is buried, but we are not put into Him being raised.

Because having died with Him, buried with Him, that's our death, and we are "good to go". A death that cleanses us, and doesn't destroy us. And Jesus comes into us. Instead of being immersed into Him in baptism into His death, He comes into us to share with us His life, His resurrection, from the inside.

We never were our flesh. Adam lost righteousness and therefore lost his communion with his Maker. In the day you eat, dying you will die, and the spirit being created by God died, lost connection with God, and became just the soul, left to work things out via conscience, the knowledge of good and evil.

Jesus coming into us brings His Own righteousness, and His presence in us brings that dead spirit back to life. We can have restored communion with God because our sins are gone via death, the shedding of blood.

The Bible speaks of "as the outer man decays, the inner man is being restored", that is, returned to a "new" state. Which means that we are like Adam was before the fall. There is though one extremely important difference between a born again child of God, and Adam before the fall.

Adam was in communion with God because his spirit was righteous, no separation from God. But his spirit died in unrighteousness when he sinned. We are in communion with God because Jesus is righteous, and Jesus revives our dead spirit, giving us life, His life, His righteous life in communion with God.

The body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is life because of righteousness.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Okay, then keep arguing. Keep refusing to look at what I layed out.
Redefine what “prison” means. Redefine what “more stripes and less stripes” means. Redefine what “so my Father will do” means.

I mean, I look at it with hope for that man. Better to be a live dog put in a cage for a bit than a dead dog!

No, you keep arguing!

I'm not refusing to look at anything, but now you've gotten me to get into self-defense and I'm not into that really.

Put the parable in context. I'm not saying redefine or ignore anything. I'm saying put it into context, and that's not a bad thing.

And I'm saying, there are some rather fundamental truths given in the Bible, or so it seems to me, such as the one I've said. If sin could be removed in some other way, Jesus didn't have to die. Jesus' death is The Only remedy for sin.

But again, put these parables in their contexts, and the seeming difficulties just disappear. Or so it seems to me.

If you want to keep making personal about how I'm ignoring or just wanting to argue or whatever, that's your choice. But I'm not going to own it, and I'll hopefully just ignore all those comments going forward. We'll have to see about that though. :

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Put the parable in context.

The context of the parable is being forgiven and then not forgiving.
Jesus says one who does this will be thrown into a prison and not come out until they have paid the last farthing of their debt since they didn’t forgive as they were forgiven.

 

[marks]

I mean, I look at it with hope for that man. Better to be a live dog put in a cage for a bit than a dead dog!

Its like when people try to turn the Sermon on the Mount into a "New Testament Christian Law", confusion results.

IF IF you could suffer a while to finish paying off your sins, why did Jesus die? God would simply assign everyone the appropriate amount of suffering, and then welcome them in afterward. There would be no one left out. Right?

God is love, and if that were the way, well, what do you think?

But that's not what it's about.

"All sins shall be forgiven men" (with 1 exception, and it's very specific)

"Behold the Lamb of God, Who carries away the sin of the world"

Where are the "leftover sins" to be purged in the flames so we can know eternal life? Are we in communion with God as we burn in the flames? For He has promised, I will NEVER leave you, nor forsake you.

That's what it's about. He has promised, I will never leave you nor forsake you. All who come to Him, He will not cast out. And we aren't cleansed in the flames of the lake of fire, we are cleansed in the death of Christ.

Shall we say the death of Christ was not sufficiently cleansing, but by doing a stint in the suffering ourselves we can make up what Christ lacked for us? That's not how I see it. I trust in the sufficiency of His death.

Much love!

 

[marks]

The context of the parable is being forgiven and then not forgiving.

That would be the topic. The context is what surrounds it, the people, the times, other relevant passages, similar parables in similar times with similar peoples. The context would also, at least to me, include any relevant passage that speaks towards any aspects of the parable.

Parables should be remembered to be a truth cast alongside a familiar story, but the story isn't the teaching. The story is something familiar, and the parable's lesson comes from the story, but not as a matter of "decoding" every detail.

The parable of the unjust judge, for instance, shows that. We'd have to conclude Jesus is saying God is unjust, but that's not the point of the parable. The people know . . . a judge who doesn't care about you, who can't be bothered to make a ruling for you, even that one will give in if you don't give up. So don't give up with God.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Where are the "leftover sins" to be purged in the flames so we can know eternal life?

We aren’t talking about the lake of fire or flames of annihilation.
We are talking about the outer darkness.

 

[marks]

Something I'm trying to say here is that the foundation of my faith is Christ's death and resurrection both reconciling me to God and giving me life. This seems as well established in Scripture as anything can be. So interpretations of parable that directly contradict this understanding, I'm going to examine, and I've yet to find something in the Bible that says I have to add something to Jesus' death, only to trust in Him.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Something I'm trying to say here is that the foundation of my faith is Christ's death and resurrection both reconciling me to God and giving me life. This seems as well established in Scripture as anything can be. So interpretations of parable that directly contradict this understanding, I'm going to examine, and I've yet to find something in the Bible that says I have to add something to Jesus' death, only to trust in Him.

Much love!

Well it doesn’t say the man loses his life. So it doesn’t contradict eternal life. It doesn’t say he will be executed. It says he will be put in prison.

 

[marks]

We aren’t talking about the lake of fire or flames of annihilation.
We are talking about the outer darkness.

I thought you were saying something like the flames of the lake of fire could be purgatorial, and were relating that to the parable with the man put into prison to pay the last penny. Did you mean the outer darkness to be that prison, in which the debt is paid?

Colossians 2:13-14 KJV
13) And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14) Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Cheirographon . . . their word for Promisory Note, a certificate of indebtedness.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Well it doesn’t say the man loses his life. So it doesn’t contradict eternal life. It doesn’t say he will be executed. It says he will be put in prison.

Put into prison why?

I didn't just say that His resurrection brings us life, but also His death reconciles us. Even before we believe! Consider the implications of that!

:)

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I thought you were saying something like the flames of the lake of fire could be purgatorial, and were relating that to the parable with the man put into prison to pay the last penny. Did you mean the outer darkness to be that prison, in which the debt is paid?

Colossians 2:13-14 KJV
13) And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14) Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Cheirographon . . . their word for Promisory Note, a certificate of indebtedness.

Much love!

No. I wasn’t talking about the lake of fire and annihilation. I was talking about the outer darkness.