Church Bashing
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Not the end but the beginning (which you misunderstand). See Rev 20:10 and Rev 14:10,11. How do people manage to misunderstand? That's why I have posted a thread in the Christian theology forum on this subject.
H. The unrighteous dead in Sheol/Hades will face the Second Death
Those who are presently in Sheol/Hades will be resurrected at the resurrection of damnation (John 5:29), then judged at the Great White Throne Judgment, then cast into the Lake of Fire, which is the Second Death (Rev 20). But God does not want anyone to face the Second Death, and that is why the Gospel is to be preached in all the world and to “every creature” (Mt 28:18-20; Mk 16:15,26):
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and Hades delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Death and Hades are personified in this passage, and when they are “cast into the Lake of Fire” it means that they are terminated. That is the end of death and Hades. But as we can see there is eternal torment in Hell: and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Why are so many Christians still so confused about the afterlife?
My explanation will mean nothing to you unless you can see that Jesus alone pays for our sins, providing reconciliation to God. And and that this reconciliation is complete and total.
Clay pots were broken if defiled, not just the temple stuff, but any clay pot. It had to do with your ability to cleanse it. If the pot could be washed, I.E. metal or plastic, it was cleansed. If it could not be washed, I.E. clay, it was broken to prevent re-use.
Just like if the mold on your wall didn't go away, the wall would be torn down.
We have this treasure in clay pots, that the excellency of the power is from God and not us.
Not just the temple pots, all clay pots were broken if defiled. All.
Much love!
You’re making this about eternal life when it’s not about eternal life. I believe those in outer darkness have eternal life.
But you believe they are there paying for their sins, or am I misunderstanding you?
I thing we must have very different ideas of what reconciliation to God is. Your idea of outer darkness apparently fits with your idea of a less than complete reconciliation to God. Again . . . unless I misunderstand you.
Much love!
John 17:3 KJV
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Much love!
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
Of course, I accept your apology, although none is needed. You have not offended me in any way. I must say, however, I'm finding it increasingly difficult to understand how to respond to your posts in a way that meets your approval. I had no idea it was necessary to analyze and seek to discern your motives before addressing you. I admit I can't help wondering how you know to what extent I have considered your remarks and views. I can only assume what hasn't been expressed, and this is not without its many distinct disadvantages, at best. With regard to the questionable interpretation of a single phrase by two different styles of expression, the curiosity seems to be self-evident. Others appear to agree.
It seems to me that we've been over this ground before. I know you've shared before that you have some OCD or Autistic-type tendencies so perhaps that is what causes the constant calls for clarification, but it is used by many professional debaters as a tactical maneuver. I've probably said too much already. We're all broken, you know? And it's okay. If you could be a fly on the wall of my shrink's office, it would make you feel very secure and affirmed. lol
Salvation is judged by works, but not provided by them. I'm not at all sure the word "dependant" is specific enough in clarifying the issue.
What I say merely represents my views of Christ and His Kingdom. It bears no weight in the judgment of anything or anyone, religious or otherwise. I am less than the least of all saints and am the chief of sinners. And I don't even realize it as I should.
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
Parables can often be very unclear, usually directly proportionate to our level of consecration. Scriptural (or divine) ones are absolutely designed that way. I haven't been following this discussion closely, so perhaps you'll pardon me if I mention something redundant. But it seems to me that the parable in question uses much figurative/symbolic language. I'm not at all sure that the term "sons (or children) of the Kingdom" doesn't mean Pharisees/legalists. And "outer darkness" doesn't sound too much like either of the two final destinations that are portrayed throughout the Bible (preponderance), so it might be figurative as well. I suspect that it means hellfire. Just my not-very-well-studied opinion, though.
This is the parable we were talking about.
23 “Therefore, the Kingdom of Heaven can be compared to a king who decided to bring his accounts up to date with servants who had borrowed money from him. 24 In the process, one of his debtors was brought in who owed him millions of dollars. 25 He couldn’t pay, so his master ordered that he be sold—along with his wife, his children, and everything he owned—to pay the debt.
26 “But the man fell down before his master and begged him, ‘Please, be patient with me, and I will pay it all.’ 27 Then his master was filled with pity for him, and he released him and forgave his debt.
28 “But when the man left the king, he went to a fellow servant who owed him a few thousand dollars. He grabbed him by the throat and demanded instant payment.
29 “His fellow servant fell down before him and begged for a little more time. ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it,’ he pleaded. 30 But his creditor wouldn’t wait. He had the man arrested and put in prison until the debt could be paid in full.
31 “When some of the other servants saw this, they were very upset. They went to the king and told him everything that had happened. 32 Then the king called in the man he had forgiven and said, ‘You evil servant! I forgave you that tremendous debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Shouldn’t you have mercy on your fellow servant, just as I had mercy on you?’ 34 Then the angry king sent the man to prison to be tortured until he had paid his entire debt.
35 “That’s what my heavenly Father will do to you if you refuse to forgive your brothers and sisters from your heart.”
It very distinctly does NOT sound like the lake of fire to me, or hellfire you called it? It sounds like there’s the possibility of getting out of the prison, which I’m seeing as possibly being outer darkness.
23 “Therefore, the Kingdom of Heaven can be compared to a king who decided to bring his accounts up to date with servants who had borrowed money from him. 24 In the process, one of his debtors was brought in who owed him millions of dollars. 25 He couldn’t pay, so his master ordered that he be sold—along with his wife, his children, and everything he owned—to pay the debt.
26 “But the man fell down before his master and begged him, ‘Please, be patient with me, and I will pay it all.’ 27 Then his master was filled with pity for him, and he released him and forgave his debt.
28 “But when the man left the king, he went to a fellow servant who owed him a few thousand dollars. He grabbed him by the throat and demanded instant payment.
29 “His fellow servant fell down before him and begged for a little more time. ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it,’ he pleaded. 30 But his creditor wouldn’t wait. He had the man arrested and put in prison until the debt could be paid in full.
31 “When some of the other servants saw this, they were very upset. They went to the king and told him everything that had happened. 32 Then the king called in the man he had forgiven and said, ‘You evil servant! I forgave you that tremendous debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Shouldn’t you have mercy on your fellow servant, just as I had mercy on you?’ 34 Then the angry king sent the man to prison to be tortured until he had paid his entire debt.
35 “That’s what my heavenly Father will do to you if you refuse to forgive your brothers and sisters from your heart.”
It very distinctly does NOT sound like the lake of fire to me, or hellfire you called it? It sounds like there’s the possibility of getting out of the prison, which I’m seeing as possibly being outer darkness.
So you are thinking that those in outer darkness nonetheless are in communion with God?
Much love!
That's not what I'm doing, if that is affecting your replies. When I'm asking for clarification, or elaboration, it's because I'm not sure what you are saying.
The only thing I wanted to point to was that you declared my hermanuetic to be, what did you say? Regardless, without any talk about how I arrived at that, only that I wasn't being consistent or whatever it was, I honestly don't really care.
That's all it was. To me it's a speed bump in the conversation.
No worries!
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I don't see that myself. I see that salvation is knowing God, and being born from Him. The works follow, but God knows who His children are.
Or did you mean that others judge our salvation based on our works? Like James was talking about?
Much love!
Parables can often be very unclear, usually directly proportionate to our level of consecration. Scriptural (or divine) ones are absolutely designed that way. I haven't been following this discussion closely, so perhaps you'll pardon me if I mention something redundant. But it seems to me that the parable in question uses much figurative/symbolic language. I'm not at all sure that the term "sons (or children) of the Kingdom" doesn't mean Pharisees/legalists. And "outer darkness" doesn't sound too much like either of the two final destinations that are portrayed throughout the Bible (preponderance), so it might be figurative as well. I suspect that it means hellfire. Just my not-very-well-studied opinion, though.
I likewise hope I don't write the same things over and over to someone. I forget who I've said what to.
These parables match up very well to certain groups of people during certain historical times. And to me, to keep them in that context, the meanings are much more clear.
Well, like you said, depending . . .
"The Sower went out to sow . . ." for instance . . . Jesus said no one comes to Him unless the Father draw Him, that was before the cross. Jesus also said that if He be lifted up, He would draw all men to Himself. So then, the parable of the Sower, should we place the meaning before or after the cross?
Jesus told His disciples, "if you don't understand this parable, how will you understand any of the parables." What is it about the parable of the Sower that is fundamental toward understanding all the others?
There are four soils, four responses to the Word. One of them is honest and good, only one. And it's only in that one that the Word is fruitful, bearing fruit.
Much love!
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