Church Bashing

[bbyrd009]

We later learned that it was scam from the start

im curious if you recall any signs in retrospect; any complaining, or anything?

 

[bbyrd009]

Look up "Umin and Thummim" in your Bible concordance. God's holy dice.

"I'll do my best and trust you're guiding my steps" is about all we can do sometimes.

imo even rolling actual dice might not be the worst idea

 

[BarneyFife]

... if we are always in the Spirit and led by the Spirit, we will always know God's answer to any questions to which we need [not want] the answers.

I love your post, here John, but given this a true (oops) statement, don't we really have to more clearly define what the word "need" means? What in, fact, do we need? We really don't know what we need, but your claim that we must be in and led by The Spirit couldn't be more true (there it is again--I just can't seem to express myself without it-lol), because The Great Apostle says that we know not what we ought to pray for as we should but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. What a wonderful promise!!!
HALLELUJAH--PRAISE THE LORD!!!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

... if we are always in the Spirit and led by the Spirit, we will always know God's answer to any questions to which we need [not want] the answers.

Im led by His Spirit but I’ve never gotten an answer, so He’s taken me a way that I have to trust He guides my steps. And I’m fine with that, I really am.

 

[amadeus]

im curious if you recall any signs in retrospect; any complaining, or anything?

On the contrary... only a hard luck story which I now forget as to what happened to their money.

The guy went around from church to church asking for work to earn for traveling money to get them home from Oklahoma some place in Arkansas. We had a couple projects going on the grounds of the church, so our pastor let him work with me for a couple of hours. The man worked hard and did a good job, because being the only church person working at the moment I was working with him showing him what to do.

The couple said they had no vehicle, and that they said they were dependent on public transportation or hitchhiking. I saw the girl early on, but she disappeared when we were working.

When my wife showed up and heard about their supposed plight of needing to get home but having no money at all, she came up with the idea of letting them sleep on our roll out bed in the living room. We fed them a nice dinner, which my wife prepared and fixed their bed. In the morning, I purchased bus tickets to somewhere a few hundred miles away. Greyhound still had a few running in those days, but they had to get to Tulsa to catch the bus. So, I volunteered to drive them the 90 some miles to Tulsa and the bus station.

I handed them the ticket which had cost us close to $100.00 and dropped them off at the station and headed back home. They were supposed to meet the girl's older sister, get the bus ticket money for us and send it to us ASAP. For some reason the sister's name was genuine and the city was correct. However, the street address was phony as was the phone number the couple had given for the sister.

I forget all of the details, but sometime later we managed to get hold of the sister on the telephone. She provided the details which we then believed to be the truth. We were far from the first people, [always church people], to be bilked by the couple. She had not seen her sister in several months and did not expect to as they already gotten money from her... She could not afford to reimburse us and apologized on behalf of her sister.

The bus company confirmed that the couple had cashed in the ticket at the Tulsa station. Where they went from there is anybody's guess. Off to find another town with gullible church members, I suppose.

The single fact that had reassured me when I agreed with my wife's suggestion to give them a place to sleep was that the young man had really been a good worker. It was hard work drilling holes in concrete to insert rebar to connect the older sidewalk to new one to be poured alongside. He worked hard and well for a couple of hours in the hot sun. Of course, our pastor paid him for that. That's about all I remember now.

No hints that would have led me to suspect them before we were committed and set me to worrying.

 

[amadeus]

I love your post, here John, but given this a true (oops) statement, don't we really have to more clearly define what the word "need" means? What in, fact, do we need? We really don't know what we need, but your claim that we must be in and led by The Spirit couldn't be more true (there it is again--I just can't seem to express myself without it-lol), because The Great Apostle says that we know not what we ought to pray for as we should but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. What a wonderful promise!!!
HALLELUJAH--PRAISE THE LORD!!!

People... and I do mean church people, very often do not know the difference between what they want and what God would say that they need. A lot of them it seems to me do not really care to know what God would say that they need. They often, it seems, presume that what they want in the flesh must be OK with God because they have already "repented". Do they even understand what that means?

Do we need to eat three natural meals a day in order to continue living naturally? We perhaps want to with even a few little tasty snacks between meals, but what do we need?

Do we want to talk to God every day? Do we need to talk to God every day in order to approach Him more closely? Do we need to do anything at all after we have repented that first time in order to endure to the end with Him?

Need versus want!

 

[amadeus]

Im led by His Spirit but I’ve never gotten an answer, so He’s taken me a way that I have to trust He guides my steps. And I’m fine with that, I really am.

Indeed content with that:

"Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content." Phil 4:11

The only step we need to see is the very next one and sometimes walking with God that is all we can see. Sometimes God may show us things that lie farther ahead along our pathway, but we should be expecting it. Should we even ask for it?

"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." Matt 6:33-34

 

[Nancy]

Look up "Umin and Thummim" in your Bible concordance. God's holy dice.
[Dang, Amadeus beat me to it!]

"I'll do my best and trust you're guiding my steps" is about all we can do sometimes.

Uma Thurman?

 

[Lambano]

But God doesn’t want us to be going and trying to be good and loving in our own strength, without power.

Sometimes (no, usually) it's not clear whether it's me trying to be good and loving in my own strength, or God working love and goodness through me. How do I tell?

 

[Lambano]

Well, actually, as it turns out, you do have some power. You have Gods words to try to help build up someone’s trust. You also have some power with your own testimony of a similar situation where you had a breakdown and felt God hated you just as this person you’re talking to feels. You know how He brought you out of that, so…how did that happen? What things did He show YOU that made you see He didn’t hate you?

I don't think that will work.

If a man believes you have the Elect and the non-Elect, continued sin and a lack of sorrow over it is evidence he's part of the non-Elect. (A position with which I can identify.) Testifying what God has done for me is effectively bragging that I am part of the Elect while he is not, which would make me an object of envy and resentment. That is not a position in which I want to be.

How can God's word build up trust in a man who believes "For God so loved the world" doesn't apply to him?

 

[BarneyFife]

Amen, sister! Not long after we moved to Oklahoma we got burned very badly by a "nice" young couple who expressed their need for help. We never even suspected that such a young couple could have already learned to take advantage of the kindness of others. We later learned that it was scam from the start

We were striving to be good Christian people so naturally we helped them. The financially part hurt only a little as I was still working and getting lots of overtime, but the pain of their smiling faces and honest sounding words remains to this day.

It really could have been a lot worse because we did take them into our home and give them a bed to sleep in for a night. We must learn to hear from God in situations like that.

You don't want to deny a real need when you have the means, but neither do you want to feed the devil and hurt yourself or others in the process.

I've had this kind of thing happen to me many times and, in my experience, there is no better way to deal with it than to just leave it with the LORD. After all, since we're doing everything as to the LORD, there's no loss involved, really.

The earth and the cattle on a thousand hills belong to Him. I've had to learn to think of absolutely everything I possess (right down to the bathroom tissue) as on loan from God. I'm just a steward.

I also find I have to pray daily for the grace to keep me mindful that forgiveness is not merely an event, but also an essential attitude, a part of the lifestyle of a Christian. I often hear Christians testify that they are having a hard time forgiving someone and that they've prayed so hard for the ability to do it. Christ had no time to kneel and struggle with His Father for the ability to forgive when the High Priest's guard struck Him in the hall of the Sanhedrin.

If we earnestly pray for a generally forgiving heart (for we truly need it), instead of focusing on those who have wronged us (not that we shouldn't pray for them), God will surely answer, and we will have an experience as we've never had, a closeness to the LORD we never thought possible.

Of course, all of this is relative: It doesn't happen overnight, usually, and there is no limit to the amount of this spirit we may receive. If we "only believe" (Mark 5:36). And, of course, I know I am preaching to the choir here, but for the benefit of others who might be struggling, I thought it should be voiced. :)


Exodus 32:32 KJV: Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.

Luke 23:34 KJV: Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

 

[amadeus]

I've had this kind of thing happen to me many times and, in my experience, there is no better way to deal with it than to just leave it with the LORD. After all, since we're doing everything as to the LORD, there's no loss involved, really.

The earth and the cattle on a thousand hills belong to Him. I've had to learn to think of absolutely everything I possess (right down to the bathroom tissue) as on loan from God. I'm just a steward.

I also find I have to pray daily for the grace to keep me mindful that forgiveness is not merely an event, but also an essential attitude, a part of the lifestyle of a Christian. I often hear Christians testify that they are having a hard time forgiving someone and that they've prayed so hard for the ability to do it. Christ had no time to kneel and struggle with His Father for the ability to forgive when the High Priest's guard struck Him in the hall of the Sanhedrin.

If we earnestly pray for a generally forgiving heart (for we truly need it), instead of focusing on those who have wronged us (not that we shouldn't pray for them), God will surely answer, and we will have an experience as we've never had, a closeness to the LORD we never thought possible.

Of course, all of this is relative: It doesn't happen overnight, usually, and there is no limit to the amount of this spirit we may receive. If we "only believe" (Mark 5:36). And, of course, I know I am preaching to the choir here, but for the benefit of others who might be struggling, I thought it should be voiced. :)


Exodus 32:32 KJV: Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.

Luke 23:34 KJV: Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

Yes, for those who love God, or are learning to love God, there is a process going on... and stumbling along the way is not such an unusual thing. If we do not quit on God, I believe the Way to the end of our course with Him remains open to us. We cannot save anyone and we cannot even help everyone. We do what we can when we can as God directs us. In any case we do have the poor always with us, right?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Sometimes (no, usually) it's not clear whether it's me trying to be good and loving in my own strength, or God working love and goodness through me. How do I tell?

I don’t think you can tell until He calms your passions. When you see yourself being mistreated or having bad motives attributed to you and there isn’t even the slightest normal flare of anger or defense for even a second, and you feel love and pity, and you think about it later, it strikes you as odd. When it continues, since you know yourself pretty well, you say, what’s going on…? They were extremely bad to me and I know they were, but even sitting here later thinking about it, I love and pity them and there’s no anger or resentment. Your thought is, okay this isn’t me, where did I go? Then you wonder if you’ll come back, if your enemy will return. You just sit puzzled for a bit and really calm and…you just think, I may have…died? When it continues, you just say, yeah, I really guess I’m dead and my gosh I’ve never known such peace and lack of harassment!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I don't think that will work.

If a man believes you have the Elect and the non-Elect, continued sin and a lack of sorrow over it is evidence he's part of the non-Elect. (A position with which I can identify.) Testifying what God has done for me is effectively bragging that I am part of the Elect while he is not, which would make me an object of envy and resentment. That is not a position in which I want to be.

How can God's word build up trust in a man who believes "For God so loved the world" doesn't apply to him?

Give him verses that show what he’s been taught by men is wrong.

 

[Lambano]

I don’t think you can tell until He calms your passions. When you see yourself being mistreated or having bad motives attributed to you and there isn’t even the slightest normal flare of anger or defense for even a second, and you feel love and pity, and you think about it later, it strikes you as odd. When it continues, since you know yourself pretty well, you say, what’s going on…? They were extremely bad to me and I know they were, but even sitting here later thinking about it, I love and pity them and there’s no anger or resentment. Your thought is, okay this isn’t me, where did I go? Then you wonder if you’ll come back, if your enemy will return. You just sit puzzled for a bit and really calm and…you just think, I may have…died? When it continues, you just say, yeah, I really guess I’m dead and my gosh I’ve never known such peace and lack of harassment!

I don't know if I can relate to this (yet), but I'll watch for it.

 

[Lambano]

Give him verses that show what he’s been taught by men is wrong.

Sigh. 411 years.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I don't know if I can relate to this (yet), but I'll watch for it.

Oh you don’t have to watch for it. You’ll absolutely know the oddest thing you’ve ever experienced has happened.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Sigh. 411 years.

Don’t argue. Just give him all the verses.

 

[Lambano]

Don’t argue. Just give him all the verses.

Yes, ma'am.

 

[BarneyFife]

I don't think that will work.

If a man believes you have the Elect and the non-Elect, continued sin and a lack of sorrow over it is evidence he's part of the non-Elect. (A position with which I can identify.) Testifying what God has done for me is effectively bragging that I am part of the Elect while he is not, which would make me an object of envy and resentment. That is not a position in which I want to be.

How can God's word build up trust in a man who believes "For God so loved the world" doesn't apply to him?

Pray earnestly, as never before, claiming the promises of God for him. Show God that you're willing to make a fool of yourself if need be by telling Him that you expect Him to come down and keep His word and heal this man, even if He chooses not to do it at this time. Get serious with Him; tell Him that the enemy should not be allowed to stand by and taunt Christ for what is happening to this man (Is this not a brand plucked out of the fire?). Stuff like that there. Meanwhile, be his best friend. Plead with God to both will and to work in you both to do of His good pleasure. :)

Don't be afraid He loves for His children to entreat Him. Beg like a little kid at a grocery store. Need I say more?