Homosexuality

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Is homosexuality a sin?


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theophilus

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People ask me, can a homosexual male of female be saved and I always answer, ¨Sure, if they repent of their behavior and agree to keep the Commands of their Savior, Jesus, the Christ.

You are absolutely right. If you want to know what it is like to be a Christian and yet to find yourself sexually attracted to members of the same sex I recommend that you read Washed and Waiting by Wesley Hill. Here is Hill's explanaton of why he wrote the book.

When I began to wrestle with my homosexuality in a serious way, I was a Christian and a committed church member. The first people with whom I wanted to talk about my experience of same-sex desires were the pastors and elders at my church. Compassionate and understanding people that they were, these leaders looked for books and resources to help me grapple with what I was facing.

Disappointingly, however, we all came up short. There just didn’t seem to be any books we could find that described what it felt like to wrestle with homosexuality from the inside, as it were—as a Christian. There were plenty of books that talked about the causes and the results of homosexuality in individuals and families. There were also lots of books that talked about the “culture wars” and the relevant biblical passages and the governmental legislation about homosexuality and marriage. But, unfortunately, it was hard to find a personal, pastoral book that said, “Here is what it looks like to be a Christian and experience the reality of homosexuality firsthand. Here is my story…”

That’s why I wrote my book—to describe, primarily for celibate gay Christians themselves, my experience of homosexual desires and my commitment to Christianity’s traditional position that sex is intended to be experienced only within marriage between a man and a woman. I wanted to assure gay Christians, many of whom remain deeply committed to Scripture, that their struggles—with the “why” questions, with loneliness, shame, and the hunger for love—are shared by many in the church. I wanted gay Christians to realize they aren’t alone as they seek, in their own way, to “grow up into Christ” (Ephesians 4:15) along with the rest of their fellow Christians.

My hope is that this book will help pastors better understand what it looks and feels like to be a Christian facing the reality of one’s own broken sexuality. The result, I hope, will be a greater sensitivity to one another’s weaknesses, and a deeper commitment to “bear one another’s burdens” (Galatians 6:2) in the fellowship of Christ’s Body.

There is one problem with the question you asked: Is homosexuality a sin? You failed to specify whether you wee talking about homosexual practice or homosexual orientation. They are two different things. Having homosexual orientation only means that you are tempted in a certain way but it isn't in itself a sin.
 

Axehead

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You are absolutely right. If you want to know what it is like to be a Christian and yet to find yourself sexually attracted to members of the same sex I recommend that you read Washed and Waiting by Wesley Hill. Here is Hill's explanaton of why he wrote the book.

There is one problem with the question you asked: Is homosexuality a sin? You failed to specify whether you wee talking about homosexual practice or homosexual orientation. They are two different things. Having homosexual orientation only means that you are tempted in a certain way but it isn't in itself a sin.

But does homosexual orientation, include desires and fantasies of the heart? If not, then how does one know if they are homosexually "oriented" if they don't have desires and imaginations in their heart? If you are going to use this term, I think you should be truthful about it. We are held accountable for what takes place in our heart according to Jesus. You can resist temptations in your heart or act upon them all right there, within your heart. It is called fornication and adultery in your heart. Any honest heterosexual or homosexual knows that.

Mat_15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

Axehead
 

dragonfly

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Hi IHSscj,

Starting with the two passages from Leviticus, then:

Leviticus 18: 22 & 20:13
As I understand the Torah, the first 5 books of the bible, they were originally a complete legal code covering virtually every aspect of life that the Hebrews might encounter in Canaan for (as we might say) the forseeable future. There is a passage in Numbers 27: 1- 11 that seems to deal with a point in the law that did not actually cover the situation at hand, so Moses brought the issue before Yahweh, and Yahweh resolved it.

On the whole however, the complete law was binding, as James 2: 10 makes clear. You could not "cherry-pick" the various provisions; there were no "blue laws." But things changed, as the bible itself revealed: Isaiah 56: 1- 8: foreigners were no longer kept from worship in the Spirit. Further, after the exile in Babylon and the return to Isreal, Jerusalem was no longer the only place in which temple worship of Yahweh was possible. And in the Greek Testament, there were even more wholesale departures from the law per se. (As evidenced by almost the entire Letter to the Galatians) But the first & second commandments were to be kept to, as I venture to do today. What is more important, to my mind (because it is so widely ignored) is the reality that the original premise of the Torah is still true today for the devoted Christian: every last aspect of our lives -- the credit cards, the electronics, the car that won't start, the cashier that snaps at you -- all of it is covered by the Mighty Will of God. We do not have a complete code laid out as it was in the Torah, but we have God's guiding Spirit when we ask for it. In fact, we have God's nagging Spirit when we forget to ask for it. When we snap back at the cashier, God is there to say, "Remember when I was silent before Annas? (John 18: 19- 24) How are you able to treat him/her differently than I treated you at Calvary?"

So, when it comes to gayness, it is difficult to apply a fraction of the code, without also thinking of other parts, say, Deuteronomy 25: 11- 12. :mellow:

The key thought in the Bible regarding homosexual behaviour, is that it falls in the category of idolatry first of all. In the New Testament (NT), the word 'fornication' also covers it, according to the meaning of the Greek word.

The reason that fornication is forbidden, is that it's an expression of idolatry, and of not worshipping God in spirit and truth. John 4:22 - 24.

The spirits which overcome a person's innate sexual design, are particularly strong, but you can take back that territory in your life, with the help of the Holy Spirit. I'm sure it's the Holy Spirit which is leading you to seek out answers, as you are.

I have heard or read testimonies from those who abandoned homosexual thoughts and behaviour, which was, for most of them, a process of abstinence and renewing of the mind, as well as waiting on God for normal desires to arise - which they do. There is a tendency in the whole of creation, for God's original design to work properly, despite things which might try to thwart its success.
 

Axehead

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Hi IHSscj,



The key thought in the Bible regarding homosexual behaviour, is that it falls in the category of idolatry first of all. In the New Testament (NT), the word 'fornication' also covers it, according to the meaning of the Greek word.

The reason that fornication is forbidden, is that it's an expression of idolatry, and of not worshipping God in spirit and truth. John 4:22 - 24.

The spirits which overcome a person's innate sexual design, are particularly strong, but you can take back that territory in your life, with the help of the Holy Spirit. I'm sure it's the Holy Spirit which is leading you to seek out answers, as you are.

I have heard or read testimonies from those who abandoned homosexual thoughts and behaviour, which was, for most of them, a process of abstinence and renewing of the mind, as well as waiting on God for normal desires to arise - which they do. There is a tendency in the whole of creation, for God's original design to work properly, despite things which might try to thwart its success.

Very well said, dragonfly!
 

DoUPray2

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We don’t need a lot of reasons why gay marriage is wrong; IT JUST IS! But in all honesty, how can the church tell a homosexual what they are doing is wrong when they see us do other things that the Bible is blatantly against? We walk in pride, forgetting the hole from where we were dug and gossip and judge, etc. We (the church) have lost all respectability among the majority of the lost (imho).

We need to be humble and remember that everything the “sexually immoral” is – that term includes (adultery, masturbation, those who even just fantasize about being sexually immoral, etc.), because all these are leading the pack outside the gate (Rev 22.15). As is the dogs (half-hearted believers), those who practice witchcraft (rebellion?), murderers (physically and verbally) and idolaters and everyone who LOVES a lie (one reference is: 2 Thess 2.10).

My question is, as Christians, why do we just pick on homosexuals, when so many in the church are in rebellion (the sin of witchcraft), embroiled in lust themselves, and read their horoscopes (sorcery) more than their Bibles? I'm just sayin’.

The sad thing today about the church is that to be able to minister to a homosexual in order to bring them out of Egypt, the minister has to have already come out of Egypt themselves! The majority of the church is in bondage to these things themselves and the honest question is how can they help others when they can’t help themselves? :wacko:

As believers of Jesus Christ, we MUST examine our own lives and spiritual condition before we go pointing our own fingers (loggers) at other sinful people (toothpick people)

(Stepping down off my soap box now!) Thank you for listening and God bless, :D
Lisa
 

Rex

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Powerful, powerful, message Lisa, AMen
You can take that soap box anytime you like in my book

Proverbs 8:2

It would be my honor to carry that box
 

THE Gypsy

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We don’t need a lot of reasons why gay marriage is wrong; IT JUST IS! But in all honesty, how can the church tell a homosexual what they are doing is wrong when they see us do other things that the Bible is blatantly against? We walk in pride, forgetting the hole from where we were dug and gossip and judge, etc. We (the church) have lost all respectability among the majority of the lost (imho).

We need to be humble and remember that everything the “sexually immoral” is – that term includes (adultery, masturbation, those who even just fantasize about being sexually immoral, etc.), because all these are leading the pack outside the gate (Rev 22.15). As is the dogs (half-hearted believers), those who practice witchcraft (rebellion?), murderers (physically and verbally) and idolaters and everyone who LOVES a lie (one reference is: 2 Thess 2.10).

My question is, as Christians, why do we just pick on homosexuals, when so many in the church are in rebellion (the sin of witchcraft), embroiled in lust themselves, and read their horoscopes (sorcery) more than their Bibles? I'm just sayin’.

The sad thing today about the church is that to be able to minister to a homosexual in order to bring them out of Egypt, the minister has to have already come out of Egypt themselves! The majority of the church is in bondage to these things themselves and the honest question is how can they help others when they can’t help themselves? :wacko:/>

As believers of Jesus Christ, we MUST examine our own lives and spiritual condition before we go pointing our own fingers (loggers) at other sinful people (toothpick people)

(Stepping down off my soap box now!) Thank you for listening and God bless, :D/>
Lisa

Very true! It is much easier to look at the sin in the lives of others than to turn that searching eye inward. I've never understood why there is so much emphasis put on this particular issue.
 

marksman

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These comments are born out of 20 years of study and engaging the homosexual community and offering support for those who want to escape their homosexuality.

From what I have learnt, the homosexual way of life is built on a lie, that you are born homosexual. One can find on the Internet "10 myths of homosexuality" and that is the first one.

A few comments about this.

One God did not create anyone homosexual. It says in Genesis that he created them male and female. it does not say he created them male and female and homosexual.

Two. We are created in the image of God and God is not homosexual. He is male and female.

Three. All the studies that have been done to try and prove you are born homosexual have sunk without trace.

Four. All the studies that have been done to find a cause for homosexuality are very consistent. To understand this you have to separate same sex attraction (SSA) from homosexuality. The attraction is not something that a person chooses but the act of homosexuality is. It is no different to a person not choosing their heterosexuality but being active sexually is. The fornicating homosexual and the fornicating heterosexual are one and the same thing. Both are abusing their sexuality and stepping outside of the will of God. .

Five. I found that everyone of the young men I counselled out of homosexuality all had a similar background. They all had a distant or emotionally abusive father. Their homosexuality was a search for acceptance from someone of the same sex.

Six. The problem is not their homosexuality. The problem is the rejection they have suffered, in most cases from their father. If you don't deal with the rejection you won't deal with their homosexuality.

Seven. Saying homosexuality is a sin is not judging homosexuals. The same as saying fornication is a sin is not judging promiscuous heterosexuals.

Eight. The scripture is very clear that it is the truth that sets you free, not lies. While you believe the lie that God made you homosexual, you cannot get free of it.

Nine. The scripture is very clear that ALL sex outside of marriage between a man and a women is sin. That is not being judgemental That is telling the truth.

Ten. God accepts you in your sin because the Word says that all have sinned and come short of God's glory and while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. If sin means we come short of God's standard, then it is obvious we all have to deal with the sin in our lives, heterosexual and homosexual to meet God's standard. To say that this is not a requirement of a homosexual is a lie.

In the current push for same sex marriage, the demands that are being made are based almost totally on lies and I believe the battle is primarily one of truth versus lies. nearly all the efforts of those fighting for SSM are put into shutting down the truth. They have to do this because the truth will expose their lies.

Same sex marriage is a product of satan as he is the father of lies as the scripture tells us. If their claims were legitimate they would not need to invent so many lies and spend so much time and energy trying to stop the truth being heard.

In that respect I would like to tell you about a conference I attended run by homosexuals for homosexuals. In the workshop where they were setting out their plans for the next 10 years the presenter said "We have to make being gay a civil rights issue. We have to quash this idea that we are not born gay because it means that we can stop being gay."

They know they are not born gay so we had better realise that anyone who says they are have had the wool pulled over their eyes or are refusing to accept the truth.
 

dragonfly

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Zh, it's probably true. It fits with items in The Vision by David Wilkerson, and terrifying dreams the Holy Spirit is giving some children.

EDIT: added at 1730 GMT.

On reflection, Zebrahug, I think what you posted is inappropriate for a Christian forum.

As a manifesto for the expression of an abomination which God hates, don't you think it's unnecessary?

I mean, how does posting it glorify Jesus Christ, or bring attention to the salvation He wrought on Calvary?

It was not pleasant reading; it was not edifying; it was not lovely, good, honest or true. It was the glorification of a lie.


I realise it's too late for you to delete it, but I hope a moderator will, when it's brought to their attention.


To aspen,

Is this what you thought you were promoting earlier in this thread?

Or, are you too, honestly shocked by the attitudes the writer expressed as he exalted his degradations?
 

marksman

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Very true! It is much easier to look at the sin in the lives of others than to turn that searching eye inward. I've never understood why there is so much emphasis put on this particular issue.

To those that are spiritually mature and can read the signs of the times. satan has made it an issue as it is his main weapon for breaking up the family and creating society in his image.

Homosexuality at the core is destructive (one of satan's modus operandi), and contrary to public opinion, it is not a lifestyle to be celebrated. The main cause of suicide amongst homosexuals is not as they would tell us the lack of acceptance of their way of life. It is the self destructive nature of the thing and the fact that it is controlled by satan, who as I say, is only interested in destroying people.

The fact that homosexuals may be doing his bidding does not mean he is kindly towards them as he will destroy anyone where he has the chance so homosexuals get no special favours from him.

We may wish it would go away but it is not going to so we have the choice of ignoring it which is what satan wants us to do, or we can stand up for the truth which ultimately will set people free from homosexuality.

If we stand up for the truth which is the one thing satan hates, we are going to be on the receiving end of some nasty responses, but for me I would rather have God's approval than try and satisfy the current culture of hedonism which is taking over society.

If we have any doubts about that, the election of Barak Obama confirmed it. What the people of America have said is they prefer a society that will kill its young without censure and allow all manner of sexual licence approved by government.

One final thing. The fact that we are dealing with the issue does not mean that we are ignoring our own shortcomings. Christianity is a daily walk and requires us to die daily. The true believer will not shy away from this as he is aware of his sin and need and for this reason, they are the sort of people that can adequately address sin as a subject as they have no qualms about where they stand on the matter and knowing that, they as much as anyone needs the constant grace of God.

The sad thing today about the church is that to be able to minister to a homosexual in order to bring them out of Egypt, the minister has to have already come out of Egypt themselves! The majority of the church is in bondage to these things themselves and the honest question is how can they help others when they can’t help themselves? :wacko:

Lisa, I have only picked out one sentence from your post as being representative of the whole post.

First, I do not disagree with your overall sentiments expressed in the post. It is a subject I could wax lyrical for a long time. Having said that I am reminded of an article I read recently, which commented on some of the silly signs outside churches. One was "Don't tell me I am wrong until your perfect" which is about as stupid as they come.

If no one was allowed to bring loving correction until they were perfect, we would find ourselves descending into anarchy very quickly.

What it means is that the parent cannot correct the child, the teacher cannot correct the student, the police officer cannot correct the criminal, the judge cannot impose a sentence, the politician cannot make laws, the local Council cannot protect the environment, the shopkeeper cannot stop people stealing the school cannot impose rules, we cannot stop the paedophile molesting children and so on and so on because all these people who are required to impose corrective action are not perfect.

It would not take much to work pout that anarchy will descend very quickly.

The important factor in all this is the grace of God. Without that we are of all people most miserable as all have sinned and come short of God's glory. No one in the New Testament was perfect but that did not stop them taking action against those who were doing wrong and it did not stop Paul issuing instructions to the churches how they were to deal with the sinner.

You have probably noticed as I have that many of the people who minister in any given area are people who have been set free from that particular issue themselves, which makes them very qualified to bring freedom and release to the people concerned. I am sure that these same people are not resting on their laurels but are pursuing their own walk of holiness as best as they know how.

The bottom line is that we are perfect in Christ and God does not deal with us according to our sins but according to his loving kindness which means that perfection is not a requirement to be used by God.

But I do agree that we cannot turn a blind eye to blatant sin in the church, especially from leaders who some seem to have the idea that they are beyond correction.

What does it matter? The Church and God need not recognize the marriage just because the law allows it. It's not going to affect how the Church and God recognize your marriage. It doesn't concern you or the Church.

Wish that were the case, but it is not. Canada has had legalised SSM since 2005 and a report that I received this week shows that it has been a disaster for society and law abiding citizens. Thousands of them have been charged under hate laws because they dare to express an OPINION contrary to what the politically correct pink thought police deem acceptable. They have had to curb the powers of their Human Rights Commission as it seems to delight in charging all and sundry as a result of accusations by homosexuals that their " feelings" have been offended by such comments.

The complainants do not have to prove anything and does not have to pay any costs, but the accused is now deemed guilty until they can prove their innocence, which is a denial of natural justice. This will often cost them thousands of dollars in legal bills and often the case is withdrawn once they have been hung, drawn and quartered.

As a result of legalised SSM, freedom of speech has well and truly been dealt a blow as your freedom of speech is only granted now if you concur with the politically correct homosexual view.
 

Rex

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I like your comments marksman and I can see you understand maturity in Christ. This is interesting to me you picked this statement and If I'm correct see it as a bit of legalism or one has to be one to minister to one.

The sad thing today about the church is that to be able to minister to a homosexual in order to bring them out of Egypt, the minister has to have already come out of Egypt themselves! The majority of the church is in bondage to these things themselves and the honest question is how can they help others when they can’t help themselves? :wacko:
Lisa

The way my eyes see this is the church for lack of a better word was never meant to be a perpetual nursery. Teachers today have members that sit in pews for years and nothing happens and nothing changes. Paul I believe said that not many should consider themselves teachers. A teacher is someone that assist a man being made in the image of Christ. For this to happen a teacher must be an image of Christ to help. Jesus demonstrated that He was the image of the Father and assisted the disciples to follow Him in the same manor. Like she said, they themselves have not come out of Egypt. How can you lead others out and into the fullness of Christ If you have not been there yourself. That's the state of affairs today.

Christ never sinned or experienced first hand, but being filled with the Spirit the Father ministered threw Him to every need of the people flawlessly. We should and can be the same.
So to my eyes an x sinner of a particular type of sin teaching is not the desired destination, In other words simply not practicing that sin is not the goal but rather to be remade in the likeness of the Son that's the finish line.

You are not wrong and Lisa may not have intended the meaning as I have presented. But I just wanted to share with you what I see in the same statement.
The same words, minister to all, the need, at every level. That's the Word of God and the working of The Holy Spirit.
Drawing us all in to the likeness of Jesus

God Bless
 

marksman

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Yes Rex, a very good word and a needed one. This may be just me but what I find is that too many Christians live their lives through the pastor, the church or other people. As a result, they know about God but don't know God.

I have a plaque by my bedside which says " If we understand that fundamental to Christian faith is a call to intimate relationship with God in Christ, then as a essential dynamic of the maturing of our relationship with God is an ever deepening intimacy with the Lord."

Paul said "that I may know HIM..." Not know him through the pastor, or the church or other people. Nothing is of any value unless it connects me to HIM. Sometimes people say "We had a very good sermon this morning." I ask, "what can you do with it?" "Oh, don't really know but it was very good." For me, if you can't do something with it it is a waste of time.

To encourage Lisa, it is a known fact that some of the best evangelists are those who have just been born again because it is all new and they are enthusiastic and haven't been "conformed" yet. I am quite sure that their perfection is very imperfect. My understanding is that God is not looking for our ability, he is looking for our availability. Or to put it another way "Our attitude, not our aptitude determines our altitude."

Read the scriptures and it is quite clear that God uses the most imperfect of people.
 

IHSscj

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Ok, how about we skip to the NT, since I'm not one for having a discussion about the law, and its effects.


Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

God gives these people over to a reprobate, or worthless mind. Ummm, what are we talking about here? I would say that it's a pretty safe assumption that it's homosexuality . . . . of course, I could be mistaken.

What almost everyone seems to ignore about Rom 1: 18- 2: 1 is the cause-&-effect chain that runs throughout the passage. It is difficult for me to see sense in any reference to Rom 1: 26- 28 without asking, "who were the 'they,' the group of people referenced throuhout the passage ?" Correct me if I'm wrong, but "they" seems to reference the people discussed in Rom 1: 18. (Ironically, this would seem to point directly to the tendency of the Israelites, and of all humanity, to waffle back & forth between holiness and Sin [see, for example, Judges 2: 1- 7], which, in turn, references the law that you wanted to not focus on. But let that be. <_< ).

So if the idolatry/Sin was tne cause that led to whatever modern aspect of human conduct that might be referenced in Rom 1: 26- 28, how are we to see it? If it truly is some aspect (or all aspects) of gayness, how would I relate that to anything happening in my life? And, more basically, how are we to approach the passage as a whole in relation to anything modern? Is this group, referenced in Rom 1: 18 in the past tense, inclusive of the modern human race, or the modern church, in its tendacy to slip back from true worship of God? Or is it more of a subjective & historical reference, warning us generally not to take our eyes off Christ? Paul obviously used this reference to a group in the past to relate somehow to the Roman church of his day. Thus, we might generally assume that the Holy Spirit wants to make the same stretch, across even more centuries, to apply to us. Maybe. But then we also have the Book of Obadiah, which seems to mainly focus on Edom, a nation that was later detroyed. Are we to arbitrarily relate it to modern society, just becease it is there in scfipture?

And, however we may choose to deal with the questions in the above paragraph, where in our society do we find references to gayness, or anything else we see as sinful, as a result of Sin, rather than a simple instance of it, as almost all "conservative" christian morality is pictured/offerred today? :eek:

Hi IHSscj,



The key thought in the Bible regarding homosexual behaviour, is that it falls in the category of idolatry first of all. In the New Testament (NT), the word 'fornication' also covers it, according to the meaning of the Greek word.

The reason that fornication is forbidden, is that it's an expression of idolatry, and of not worshipping God in spirit and truth. John 4:22 - 24.

The spirits which overcome a person's innate sexual design, are particularly strong, but you can take back that territory in your life, with the help of the Holy Spirit. I'm sure it's the Holy Spirit which is leading you to seek out answers, as you are.

Now, this is an approach that I have not heard or seen before. Gayness ("homosexuality") is said to be fundamentally associated with idolatry, which is the worship of inanimate objects instead of God. Where else can I find references that approach any objective sin as forms of idolatry?

John 4 offers the story of the Samaritan woman. Verses 1- 6 deal with the background of the situation. Verses 7- 9 deal with racial barriers of the time. In verses 10- 15 we see that Jesus seems to shift gears and change the subject: He is the source of Living Water. In verses 16- 18 we see Him shift back to the immediate situation. In verses 19- 26 we see the woman shift the discussion to liturgical matters, which is where we find what you seem to be referencing as a condemnation of idolatry, and rightly so. But can we connect all of this together? Maybe there was no change of subject. After all, doing the Will of God can be thought of as a form of worship, or at least of honoring God. (Deut 6: 4- 9) But to rope fornication, or gayness, or any other specific form of conduct, into a "categogy" that is fundementally opposed to the worship of God -- that to me is questionable. After all, if homosexuality is fundementally associated with Sin, is heterosexuality to be fundementally associated with holiness? But, if it is, how is it to be differentiated from the fertility religions, where heterosexuality, along with general prosperity, was the outright object of worship? :mellow:
 

Rex

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IHS when you get done rubbing everyone's nose in self righteousness remember my first post to you.
http://www.christian...990#entry172755

Welcome to the board IHSscj
And there is now no condemnation to those who are in Christ. So I wouldn't know where to look.
My God Richly Bless You

I would like to add that you have taken the first and last step, the largest step possible in seeking a greater relationship in the Lord.
That is a heart filled with the truth. Nothing is more pleasing before the Lord than a truthful heart. That He can deal with and He will

Be filled with joy you have entered the door.

You may find this post encouraging as well
http://www.christian...12/#entry172521

...---...
 

Groundzero

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What almost everyone seems to ignore about Rom 1: 18- 2: 1 is the cause-&-effect chain that runs throughout the passage. It is difficult for me to see sense in any reference to Rom 1: 26- 28 without asking, "who were the 'they,' the group of people referenced throuhout the passage ?" Correct me if I'm wrong, but "they" seems to reference the people discussed in Rom 1: 18. (Ironically, this would seem to point directly to the tendency of the Israelites, and of all humanity, to waffle back & forth between holiness and Sin [see, for example, Judges 2: 1- 7], which, in turn, references the law that you wanted to not focus on. But let that be. <_< ).

So if the idolatry/Sin was tne cause that led to whatever modern aspect of human conduct that might be referenced in Rom 1: 26- 28, how are we to see it? If it truly is some aspect (or all aspects) of gayness, how would I relate that to anything happening in my life? And, more basically, how are we to approach the passage as a whole in relation to anything modern? Is this group, referenced in Rom 1: 18 in the past tense, inclusive of the modern human race, or the modern church, in its tendacy to slip back from true worship of God? Or is it more of a subjective & historical reference, warning us generally not to take our eyes off Christ? Paul obviously used this reference to a group in the past to relate somehow to the Roman church of his day. Thus, we might generally assume that the Holy Spirit wants to make the same stretch, across even more centuries, to apply to us. Maybe. But then we also have the Book of Obadiah, which seems to mainly focus on Edom, a nation that was later detroyed. Are we to arbitrarily relate it to modern society, just becease it is there in scfipture?

And, however we may choose to deal with the questions in the above paragraph, where in our society do we find references to gayness, or anything else we see as sinful, as a result of Sin, rather than a simple instance of it, as almost all "conservative" christian morality is pictured/offerred today? :eek:

After all, if homosexuality is fundementally associated with Sin, is heterosexuality to be fundementally associated with holiness? But, if it is, how is it to be differentiated from the fertility religions, where heterosexuality, along with general prosperity, was the outright object of worship? :mellow:

Ok. Firstly, most of your paragraph made absolutely NO sense at all, but I'll try my best to make head and tail of the mess.
I love this quote: "So if the idolatry/Sin was tne cause that led to whatever modern aspect of human conduct that might be referenced in Rom 1: 26- 28"
'Whatever modern aspect of human conduct'. Please!!!! Tell me, what do you think Paul is referring to when he says "[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another" What is he referring to???? It's so obvious that your ambiguous statement is absolutely mind-blowing! What else is he referring to? [/background]
 

Selene

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In my house
According to the polls, it seems that the majority view homosexuality as a sin. Personally, I don't really care what people do behind the bedroom doors. That's their business. But when they start to force others to accept homosexuality as normal, then I see a problem.
 

Axehead

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May 9, 2012
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According to the polls, it seems that the majority view homosexuality as a sin. Personally, I don't really care what people do behind the bedroom doors. That's their business. But when they start to force others to accept homosexuality as normal, then I see a problem.

It's the "church" doors we should care about.
 

Rex

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Oct 17, 2012
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I takes a real genius to see the sin of others and point, but when we view our own we cover it with grace.
The blind leading the blind
 
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