Christians and Jews are both anti Acts 2:38.

[post]

Nothing in the context says the Gentiles were saved prior to being water baptized for remission of sins

i disagree 100% and i will destroy whatever your argument is forthwith:

the context not just definitively but overwhelming shows they received salvation prior to baptism. that is in fact one of the revelations which persuaded the Jerusalem synod in Acts 15 that God was saving the Gentiles, not only the Jews, and that therefore the law should not be imposed on them, according to scripture. in Acts 11 Peter is still explaining the gospel to them, definitely has not even gotten to the part of 'ok so to be saved this is what you need to do' and they are already full of God's Spirit prophesying to Peter in tongues. Simon, amazed, is like wow, who can say don't allow Gentiles to be baptized now, just.. wow!!

now immediately previous to this God had told Peter don't call unclean what God has declared clean. 3 times, because Peter is thick and has to have things repeated to him and shown to him by incontrovertible proof.
this is the incontrovertible truth God gave Peter: look, I AM has already saved them. baptize them and welcome them as brothers.

look! the mixed multitude went out also with the Jew in the Exodus.
so the definition of 'Egypt' and 'Israel' in Exodus 12 is not what you suppose it is. read Isaiah 19:25 and think. this is how Paul knows that 'not all Israel, is Israel'

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

i disagree 100% and i will destroy whatever your argument is forthwith:

I put forth my argument in post #456

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Other than being born again of the Spirit which is the same as being saved. And that was before water baptism.

There is no verse that says baptism with the Holy Spirit saves/remits sins.

 

[post]

I put forth my argument in post #456

your argument in that post refutes your own assertion.
'words' is not the rite of H2O immersion
'grace' is not the rite of H2O immersion

those at Cornelius' house were clearly already justified and approved by God before they ever got near a river or mikveh.
that is the only explanation consistent with Peter's reaction.

their subsequent H2O immersion wasn't a trigger point for becoming saved ((which is an eternal hence timeless property so the whole idea of assigning a time reference to it is ridiculous anyway)). their subsequent H2O immersion was a testimony of what God had already done.

 

[user]

They were disciples of John the Baptist's and not believers in Jesus Christ. if they were believers in Jesus Christ, they would have been baptized in Jesus's name but they were not. That is why Paul told them that Jesus was the One John was preaching about. Then they believed in Him for why they got water baptized in His name.

Why in the world would Paul need to ask this question in the first place if one receives the H.G. at the moment of believing...

He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?

 

[post]

Why in the world would Paul need to ask this question in the first place if one receives the H.G. at the moment of believing...

He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?

which also proves the baptism of the Spirit is not equivalent with salvation either - receiving the Spirit is neither equivalent to being filled ((or Ephesians 2 would be violated)) and the Spirit is a guarantee.
salvation is by grace through faith not of works lest any should boast - you cannot believe and be unsaved at the same time! any and all works notwithstanding!

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

your argument in that post refutes your own assertion.
'words' is not the rite of H2O immersion
'grace' is not the rite of H2O immersion

those at Cornelius' house were clearly already justified and approved by God before they ever got near a river or mikveh.
that is the only explanation consistent with Peter's reaction.

their subsequent H2O immersion wasn't a trigger point for becoming saved ((which is an eternal hence timeless property so the whole idea of assigning a time reference to it is ridiculous anyway)). their subsequent H2O immersion was a testimony of what God had already done.

Peter said they would be saved by words and those words included the command to be water baptism. Peter did not say they would be saved by faith alone nor by being baptized with the Holy Ghost. The fact water baptism was commanded makes it essential if for no other reason.

--Peter said Cornelius would be saved by words
--the HS fell upon Cornelius as Peter began to speak those saving words
--faith comes by hearing the word of God Rom 10:17
--so the HS fell upon Cornelius before he heard, before he could believe/have faith
--so you would have men saved BEFORE they have faith/believe in Christ/gospel

Also;

"Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved."
--Cornelius would be saved by words
--faith comes by hearing the word of God
--the HS fell upon him BEFORE he heard those words, before he could believe the gospel/Christ
--the verb saved is future tense so he would be saved AFTER hearing those words
--so he could only be saved in the future AFTER the HS fell upon him, that being AFTER he heard those saving words and obeyed them

And;
--Whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved
--when Saul was water baptized he was calling upon the name of the Lord, Acts 22:16
--you would have Cornelius saved BEFORE he called upon the name of the Lord

and;
--God purified Jew and Gentile hearts by faith Acts 15:9
--Peter says 'ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth' 1 Peter 1:22
--since there is just one way to be saved/purified, then Cornelius faith MUST have included "obeying the truth" in being baptized
--baptism with the HS had nothing to do with Jew or Gentile obeying the truth or their being purified because saving, purifying faith INCLUDES obedience.
Peter says in Acts 10 to be accepted by God requires one to "worketh righteousness". Again being baptized with the HS was not working righteousness yet obeying the command to be baptized was working God's righteousness. They were therefore not accepted by God/saved until they obeyed by being baptized/working righteousness. 1 John 3:10 as long as one continues to not do righteousness one continues to not be of God. Again baptism with the HS is not working righteousness on man's part.

and;
Romans 10:9-10 confession is unto salvation. The HS fell upon Cornelius before he had faith or confessed. If Cornelius "proves" water baptism is not essential then it proves confession is not essential to salvation contradicting Rom 10:10, Matt 10:32-33.

and;
If the HS falling upon one is "proof" they are already saved, but those in Acts 19:1-6 were water baptized BEFORE the HS fell upon them, BEFORE they spake in tongues which is the exact opposite of your position you depend upon. Acts 19 should prove your point, but does not. Also, if speaking in tongues is proof one is saved, yet 1 Corinthians 12:28-30 says not all Christians spake in tongues. So speaking in tongues is not even necessary in being saved. We have also seen being given miraculous powers (as tongues) might come before or after one is saved/forgiven. Therefore being given miraculous powers by the HS cannot be proof of one's salvation.




It become obvious baptism with the HS had nothing to do with the personal salvation of Cornelius or those Ephesians in Acts 19

 

[post]

Peter said they would be saved by words

And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead. To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.
(Acts 10:42-43)
​

at this point, hearing these words, the Gentiles, whom the Jews ((Peter included)) thought unclean and would not allow to be baptized, were filled with Spirit of God and began praising Him & speaking in tongues. evidently they believed!

all the Jews were absolutely astonished:
God had manifestly approved of them, declaring them clean, giving them salvation!

who could forbid baptism, seeing what God had done? the question of baptism at that point was absurd!
who are you to declare unclean what God had declared clean?
but you are here smugly teaching that despite all God had done, they were not clean until they were doused in H2O by a man.


in Peter's vision every kind of living creature descended from heaven. where were they before Peter saw them?
in heaven.
and where did they go? they were taken up, again, into heaven.

​

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead. To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.
(Acts 10:42-43)
​

at this point, hearing these words, the Gentiles, whom the Jews ((Peter included)) thought unclean and would not allow to be baptized, were filled with Spirit of God and began praising Him & speaking in tongues. evidently they believed!

all the Jews were absolutely astonished:
God had manifestly approved of them, declaring them clean, giving them salvation!

who could forbid baptism, seeing what God had done? the question of baptism at that point was absurd!
who are you to declare unclean what God had declared clean?
but you are here smugly teaching that despite all God had done, they were not clean until they were doused in H2O by a man.


in Peter's vision every kind of living creature descended from heaven. where were they before Peter saw them?
in heaven.
and where did they go? they were taken up, again, into heaven.

​

Acts 10:44 "While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word."

We know from Acts 11:15 the HS fell on them "as I began to speak". The HS fell upon them BEFORE Peter spake those saving words....they could not believe what they had not heard.

Any Jew that tried to forbid water baptism would have been trying to thwart God's will in salvation going to the Gentiles. Water baptism was then commanded to the Gentiles as it was to the Jew Acts 2 making water baptism the like manner way Jew and Gentile are saved. The Gentiles could now be saved thru water baptism without becoming a Jew, that is, be saved without having to be circumcised and not be compelled to live as a Jew as Jews wrongly thought, Acts of the Apostles 15:1; Galatians 2:14

When Peter received a vision, Cornelius was lost and in need of gospel salvation, he was not 'in heaven' but lost. The vision was to prove to the Jews salvation therefore was for the 'clean' Gentiles also and not just for the Jews. From youth, Jews had always been taught to make a distinction between what was clean and unclean. God removed that distinction between clean and unclean, between Jew and Gentile. Now that all foods are clean indicates the OT law that made distinctions was now abolished/gone. Hence salvation was to go to the Gentile under the new dispensation of the gospel, not just for the Jew.

 

[user]

which also proves the baptism of the Spirit is not equivalent with salvation either - receiving the Spirit is neither equivalent to being filled ((or Ephesians 2 would be violated)) and the Spirit is a guarantee.
salvation is by grace through faith not of works lest any should boast - you cannot believe and be unsaved at the same time! any and all works notwithstanding!

So if a person dies between believing and receiving the H.G. they go to heaven?
You have people in heaven having Not the H.G.?

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

 

[Christ4Me]

i disagree 100% and i will destroy whatever your argument is forthwith:

the context not just definitively but overwhelming shows they received salvation prior to baptism. that is in fact one of the revelations which persuaded the Jerusalem synod in Acts 15 that God was saving the Gentiles, not only the Jews, and that therefore the law should not be imposed on them, according to scripture. in Acts 11 Peter is still explaining the gospel to them, definitely has not even gotten to the part of 'ok so to be saved this is what you need to do' and they are already full of God's Spirit prophesying to Peter in tongues. Simon, amazed, is like wow, who can say don't allow Gentiles to be baptized now, just.. wow!!

now immediately previous to this God had told Peter don't call unclean what God has declared clean. 3 times, because Peter is thick and has to have things repeated to him and shown to him by incontrovertible proof.
this is the incontrovertible truth God gave Peter: look, I AM has already saved them. baptize them and welcome them as brothers.

look! the mixed multitude went out also with the Jew in the Exodus.
so the definition of 'Egypt' and 'Israel' in Exodus 12 is not what you suppose it is. read Isaiah 19:25 and think. this is how Paul knows that 'not all Israel, is Israel'

Only God can cause the increase by opening their eyes to see the truth in His words.

1 Corinthians 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

Like many believers, they do not want to or they cannot believe that their church's teachings are wrong, so they only read Acts 2:38 into all scripture, even reading water baptism in Mark 16:16 instead of the baptism with the Holy Ghost, yet we are to prove all things with Jesus Christ by His words.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. 23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it. 25 Brethren, pray for us.

Thank you for confirming the word, but in a lot of discussions like these, prayers are needed for those who oppose themselves to see the truth. Even the Lord has taught me something while in these discussions like The Father is King also and not just Jesus since Jesus will be giving back the kingdom to the Father once He is done making it whole and death & hell is in the lake of fire.

So we all prophesy in part & know in part, as we each are to rely on Him to help anyone to grow in the knowledge of Him, including us.

2 Timothy 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

 

[Christ4Me]

There is no verse that says baptism with the Holy Spirit saves/remits sins.

I did not say that but quoted Peter to the Gentiles that believing in Jesus Chris remits sins.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

The fact that the Gentiles had received the baptism with the Holy Ghost immediately afterwards shows why believing in Jesus Christ is how we had received the remission of sins and thus born again of the Spirit and are saved without water baptism.

There is scripture that does signify what the Holy Spirit does the moment we believe in Jesus Christ without needing any works from us to accomplish this when this was done by His grace.

Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

More scripture speaking against water baptism as something believers can do to obtain salvation by when we are saved by His grace.

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

The verses below proves that the will of believers to get water baptized cannot be how they are saved otherwise the truth below is a lie, but it's not.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

 

[Christ4Me]

Why in the world would Paul need to ask this question in the first place if one receives the H.G. at the moment of believing...

He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?

It was written that Paul had come across "certain" disciples but did not know what kind, because there are 3 kinds of disciples in Paul's days.

Mark 2:18And the disciples of John and of the Pharisees used to fast: and they come and say unto him, Why do the disciples of John and of the Pharisees fast, but thy disciples fast not?

He had assumed they were believers in Jesus Christ but he wasn't sure for why he had asked them if they had received the Holy Ghost yet. They did not even know about the Holy Ghost. And so Paul went on to investigate further by asking them what water baptism they were under. They had answered John the Baptist's. So Paul found out what kind of disciples they were; disciples of John the Baptist's. Then Paul told them about Jesus Christ being the One that John the Baptist was talking about and then they believed, got water baptized in Jesus's name and got saved.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I did not say that but quoted Peter to the Gentiles that believing in Jesus Chris remits sins.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

The fact that the Gentiles had received the baptism with the Holy Ghost immediately afterwards shows why believing in Jesus Christ is how we had received the remission of sins and thus born again of the Spirit and are saved without water baptism.

There is scripture that does signify what the Holy Spirit does the moment we believe in Jesus Christ without needing any works from us to accomplish this when this was done by His grace.

Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

More scripture speaking against water baptism as something believers can do to obtain salvation by when we are saved by His grace.

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

The verses below proves that the will of believers to get water baptized cannot be how they are saved otherwise the truth below is a lie, but it's not.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Again. Peter did NOT say belief ALONE remits sins. many read the word :alone: into the verse,

Acts 2:28 ------- repent & be baptized >>>>>>>>>>>> remits sins
Acts 10:42 ---------believe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> remits sins

Since there is one way to be saved, no alternatives and the Bible does not contradict itself then it is evident that NT belief that saves must include repentance and baptism.

Titus 3:5 says man cannot save himself by doing his own righteousness. one must do God's righteousness in being baptized to be saved. Note how "righteousness we have done" is CONTRASTED from 'washing of regeneration" which is water baptism. Hence water baptism is not man doing his OWN righteousness but man doing God's righteousness in obeying God's command to be water baptized. Acts 10 God accepts those who "workrth righteousness" and those who work God's righteousness in obeying God's command to be water baptized v47-48 are accepted with God.

Romans 11 shows that God's people has always been those who OBEY God as those who obeyed by not bowing to Baal. The remnant according to grace is those Jews who obeyed in Acts 2 by being baptized. Paul is dealing with Jews who were trying to be justified by keeping the OT law. Therefore Paul is contrasting works of merit in trying to keep the OT law from grace...Paul NEVER contrasted obedience from grace.
Romans 6 Paul refutes grace alone.
God did not make grace available on one's birth, just being born of Abraham does not mean receiving grace nor trying to keep the OT law perfectly does not receive grace but a faithful obedience receives grace....."works by which a man merits justification, and commands which one must obey to be saved, are distinct matters.' (Whiteside). Hence Paul did not require works of merit to receive grace but Paul made repentance, confession and baptism (Romans 2:4-5; Romans 10:10; Romans 6:3-5) conditions that must be met to receive grace. And the 'remnant according to grace' were the Jews that met these conditions. Obedience to God's will is NEVER defined in the Bible as works of merit one does to merit grace. Meeting the conditions placed upon a free gift cannot, does not earn the free gift.

 

[Taken]

Nothing in the context says the Gentiles were saved prior to being water baptized for remission of sins.

---

The Difference BETWEEN “OT” salvation and “NT” salvation...
..”OT”..salvation was NOT offered for men to RECEIVE, before physical death.

The Difference BETWEEN “OT” salvation and “NT” salvation....
..”NT”...salvation WAS offered for men to RECEIVE, before physical death.


FACT:.....Salvation was offered ADAM FIRST, but he failed to understand, until LATER, and then he did become saved, AFTER his physical death.

FACT:.....Salvation was offered ALL MEN, WHO heard the Word of God, AND BELIEVED in God and His Word, continuing IN Belief, until physical DEATH...
And SO also they (OT, NT, TODAY) DID/DO become SAVED.......Hebrews, Jews, Gentiles.... AFTER PHYSICAL DEATH.

FACT:....men who ACCEPT their SALVATION BEFORE PHYSICAL DEATH, “do NOT ‘CONTINUE’ in BELIEF, to their physical death, “BY THEIR own power of trying really hard”.........A man who Accepts his SALVATION BEFORE physical death....IS ALREADY SAVED, KEPT SAVED, BY the “POWER OF GOD”....

*** So DID “gentile” men in the OT accept belief IN God, IN Gods Word (before they knew Gods Word was named Jesus)..? YES!

HOW do I know this? Scripture reveals.

Jonah 1:
[1] Now the word of the LORD came unto Jonah (the Hebrew) the son of Amittai, saying,
[2] Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness is come up before me.

(WORD of God...SAYING...GO to Nineveh....CRY....town crier...Jonah, go, Stand in the streets and SPEAK to the people of Nineveh, AGAINST what the people of Nineveh DO!)

WHO ARE the PEOPLE of Nineveh? Assyrians Gentiles, and Jews.
WHAT is Nineveh? A great seaport city.
WHAT KINGDOM is Nineveh IN? ASSYRIA.
WHO IS THE KING of the Kingdom of Assyria?
......the GENTILE KING, kind Shalmaneser

Jonah tries to escape and hide from THE WORD OF GOD.
Agains the WORD of God speaks to Jonah.

Jonah 3:
[1] And the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the second time, saying,
[2] Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee.

DID you learn WHO the WORD of God IS?
IS God...John 1:1
IS Jesus, revealed, the IS Christ; Matt 16:16
and IS the same yesterday, to day and tomorrow...Heb 3:8

Jonah 3:
[5] So the people of Nineveh believed God...from the greatest of the greatest of them to the least.
[6] For word came unto the king of Nineveh...
[7] And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles...


[10] And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; ...... that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.


Did God SAVE Gentiles and (Hebrews...ie) Jews in the city of Nineveh? Yes.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

By Acts 10 the OT law had been taken out of the way and replaced with Christ's NT gospel. Though Cornelius was a God fearing man and just/righteous he was lost not having obeyed the gospel. Therefore under the NT one must beleive and be baptized to be saved Mk 16:16. So Cornelius could not be saved until he first heard the gospel word, then he could believe (Romans 10:17) then be baptized to be saved. Under the NT, this is the like manner way Jew and Gentile are saved, Acts 15:11

 

[Truther]

2 ordinances.
WCF chpt 27, part 4.
“There be only two sacraments ordained by Christ our Lord in the Gospel; that is to say, baptism, and the Supper of the Lord: neither of which may be dispensed by any, but by a minister of the Word lawfully ordained.”

Try the Bible.

 

[Truther]

I'd said and quoted Peter's words in Acts 10:43 to the Gentiles that believing in Him is how one receives the remission of sins and thereby the promise of the Holy Ghost at their salvation.

So Peter in Acts 2:38, saying be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins was wrong?

Also, the devils that believe that Jesus is the son of God have remission of sins?

Or, should one that believes in Jesus immediately be baptized for the remission of their sins?

 

[Truther]

So Peter in Acts 2:38, saying be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins was wrong?

hmm

like unbaptized altogether, or 'have been baptized but not properly baptized using the authentic methods!!' ?

& what's your definition of 'Christian' -- maybe mine is not as loose as yours?

Unbaptized and incorrect baptisms.

To be an authentic Christian one must obey the command by Peter to sinners per Acts 2:38 and then walk in the Spirit to be in the authentic body of Christ from Pentecost.

 

[post]

So if a person dies between believing and receiving the H.G. they go to heaven?
You have people in heaven having Not the H.G.?

Being filled with the Holy Ghost in power, speaking in tongues and prophesying, is not the same as having Him dwelling in you.

Salvation is by grace through faith. Whoever believes will be saved.