The Great Crowd

[doxley]

ntmy, im mark
so, the “great crowd” = the “greys” of mithraism/cult of sol invictus, in that context, imo, although i guess JWs might not like the comparison much, but Yah seems to have allowed Emperor Constantine to turn nascent Christianity into the cult of sol invictus, Apollos waters

Hi Mark, sorry, you've totally lost me here

 

[Aunty Jane]

Thank you for your response. I am sorry this is so long, but many things needs to be addressed. It’s a big topic.
I'll break it up...

Thank you Aunty Jane for your answer. My problem is with the quote above. I don't see any scriptural evidence that Jesus was only calling a few select people to his priesthood, who decided he was?

In the beginning, probably most of those who responded to Jesus and accepted him as Messiah were anointed With Holy Spirit from Pentecost onward. Paul addressed those who were anointed, (holy ones) as well as those who were not so called, but still "calling on the name of their Lord Jesus". (1 Corinthians 1:2)

The Christian scriptures were written during the apostolic period, where the gifts of the spirit were proof of their calling. But Paul indicated that the gifts would cease once Christianity was firmly established. He said....

“But if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away with; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away with. 9 For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially, 10 but when what is complete comes, what is partial will be done away with.”

So the gifts were to demonstrate that God’s favor had shifted from the unfaithful Jews who clung to the teachings of the Pharisees, to the followers of God’s son (the Messiah that they rejected) but what Paul said next tells us that the gifts had fulfilled their purpose and now the need to see physical demonstrations of the spirit would cease, giving way to a more mature faith, not based on sight, but on the more important aspects of faith in what they could not see...." (2 Corinthians 4:18)

“11 When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, to think as a child, to reason as a child; but now that I have become a man, I have done away with the traits of a child. 12 For now we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face-to-face. At present I know partially, but then I will know accurately, just as I am accurately known.”

Back then they had the word of God, but it was incomplete.....the Christian scriptures were yet to become part of God’s word.
Then Jesus' disciples who were anointed wold know what they needed to know.

“ 13 Now, however, these three remain: faith, hope, love; but the greatest of these is love.” (1 Corinthians 13:8-13)

The miracles that convinced everyone of their calling, would give way to more mature evidence in the conduct of those Christians. "Faith, hope and love" would now identify Christ's followers.

So after the apostolic period, Jesus indicated that “weeds” would be sown by the devil and that they would infiltrate the whole world with a counterfeit form of Christianity. We see in the history of Christendom exactly what Jesus said. (Matthew 13: 24-30; 36-43) You see, the devil did to Christianity exactly what he did to Judaism, substituting the teachings and traditions of men for God’s word. (Matthew 15:7-9)

Why can't this be a period of sorting for the priesthood for us all? I do believe in pre-millennialism, I have no problem with that, there can still be people left on earth after Armageddon, there is nothing to say in scripture that there isn't.

As for the number 144,000, you can't make that a literal number and then make the rest of the sentence allegorical;

Revelation 7:4, “And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel”

This is not literal Israel but spiritual Israel..... “the Israel of God” (Galatians 6:16) This group is made up of the anointed ones from all nations, and all are chosen by God for their role in heaven. We cannot volunteer for this position although we can qualify for it by our faithful conduct. Since God chooses whomever he wishes, how can we be unsure of the validity of God’s word in this? Who does the "sealing"?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Revelation 14:3-4, “The hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth… These are they which were not defiled with women; for they were virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth”

These are not physical “virgins” because some of the apostles were married. nor are they all males since there is no gender in heaven. This is a purity of faith despite the imperfections of sin. When Israel strayed into false worship, Jehovah accused them of “adultery”, not physically, but spiritually. So these “chosen ones” have not strayed into false worship as Israel had done.
Christendom OTOH has adopted all manner of false religious teachings and practices from pagan worship. Those searching for the truth are aware of these things and it bothers them. It's the reason why they go searching for the truth in the first place.

The number 144,000 we believe is literal since it is contrasted with an infinite group who will survive Armageddon to become the nucleus of the new “earth”. But even if it is not literal, that does not alter the fact that these are chosen by God for their place in heaven as “kings and priests”. To me the number suggests order because God separated fleshly Israel into tribes and even in their encampments in the wilderness, the order was not to be broken. Even as they crossed through the Red Sea, they did so “in battle formation”, again suggesting order. Jehovah is a God of order and numbers in the Bible are often symbolic.

For us, (the majority of JW’s on earth today are not of the anointed) we are not one bit upset about not going to heaven because our calling is to serve our God here on earth. We all have a natural desire to live in paradise, which is why people assume that this means heaven....but the original paradise was right here on earth. That life was not supposed to end. What the anointed ones have is an inordinate desire to go to heaven.....this is implanted by God to override their natural desire to stay here on earth.

Going to heaven is a privilege, and no earthly ties of family or friends can make them desire anything else. Most Christians who envision life in heaven includes their loved ones with them and even their pets....but the anointed may have to leave mates and family members behind. It does not make them sad however....the desire in them is so strong that it overrides any feelings of loss. Their focus is entirely heavenly.

Surely we can't just swap or change between the two in mid-sentence or the scriptures would be subject to all sorts of weird and wonderful sayings?

It makes complete sense when you consider that we are now in the closing moments of the “time of the end”, all foretold by Daniel.
We are living in the days when Daniel 2:44 is to have fulfilment.

The apostle Peter, in speaking about the qualities that Christians must display, said...

“8 For if these things exist in you and overflow, they will prevent you from being either inactive or unfruitful regarding the accurate knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 For if these things are not present in anyone, he is blind, shutting his eyes to the light, and has become forgetful of his cleansing from his sins of long ago. 10 For this reason, brothers, all the more do our utmost to make the calling and choosing of you sure for yourselves; for if you keep on doing these things you will by no means ever fail.”

All Christians were in the running if they did as Peter said, but since God is the one who does the choosing, no one can be upset because they were not chosen....we will all serve our God in whatever capacity he decrees for us, happy to do so without feeling cheated. That is how you know you are living the truth. It’s never just about “you”...it is always about service to God as Jesus demonstrated when he gave up his life to save us. He agreed to become a mortal human and die a horrible death so that we might live. His willingness to become a humble human servant and teach other humans the value of putting yourself out for Jehovah and your fellow brothers and sisters, rings out from the pages of the Bible.

Can I ask what brought you to study with JW’s and what you expected to glean from it?
You see, in accord with John 6:44 and 65 we see there that no one can come to Christ without an invitation from his Father.....if you have been invited then it is God who opens up his truth to you....Jesus said "you will know the truth” and it “will set you free”. If you still cling to old ideas then you are not free. Remember what Jesus offered to first century Jews....they either accepted it or they clung to their old ways.

If you have doubts, seek answers.....but if you seek them from those who have been educated by the “weeds”, then where do you think that will take you? Are you searching for the truth that might make you change your thinking, or are you looking for something that agrees with what you want to believe? We all have to ask that question.
If you have found the truth, then it will remove all doubts. (James 1:5-8)

All who receive an invitation from God to come into his spiritual family will display the kind of faith that sees things as God sees them, not imposing their own ideas on scripture....that is what created the disunited churches of Christendom. We are not part of that confusion because we have left all that kind of worship, being convinced that it was not the truth.

We obeyed God’s commands at Revelation 18:4-5....
“And I heard another voice out of heaven say: “Get out of her, my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues. 5 For her sins have massed together clear up to heaven, and God has called her acts of injustice to mind.”

Now, the first thing you need to know is how God’s “people” got to be in “Babylon the great” in the first place.....and what the connection with Babylon actually means.

One of the first things God will do in the near future is to destroy all false worship and those who willfully cling to it it. (Revelation 18:20-21)
So we need to identify this global 'adulteress' and remove all association with her before Jehovah brings her to ruin.

I hope your search is fruitful, and that you will see things as God sees them.
We are living in unique times that thankfully will never be repeated.

All the best.....be patient and pray for God's guidance....not man's.

 

[doxley]

Paul addressed those who were anointed, (holy ones) as well as those who were not so called, but still "calling on the name of their Lord Jesus". (1 Corinthians 1:2)

So I can see how you could frame his initial address as two different groups of followers but if you read just a little further down you see that he is saying that both of these groups are ‘called into fellowship with his Son’. That means they must all be anointed, fellowship means they are to be brothers of a sort.

1 Corinthians 1:2 to the congregation of God that is in Corinth,b to you who have been sanctified in union with Christ Jesus,c called to be holy ones, together with all those everywhere who are calling on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ,e their Lord and ours:.....9 ... by whom you were called into fellowship with his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

It is just a way of saying ‘to you who are here, and those out in the world’ Then he says; “called to be holy ones, together with all those everywhere who are calling on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ” Did you see that? Called to be holy ones TOGETHER.

The miracles that convinced everyone of their calling, would give way to more mature evidence in the conduct of those Christians. "Faith, hope and love" wold now identify Christ's followers.

The gifts will cease when we can see accurately, face-to-face. That isn’t until we are with Jesus, not now!
1 Corinthians 13: But if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away with; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away with. 9 For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially, 10 but when what is complete comes, what is partial will be done away with. ………………………….12 For now we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face-to-face. At present I know partially,* but then I will know accurately,

Surely you are not saying that we don’t still ‘see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror’. The Watchtower uses this saying to explain away mistakes it has made, saying the light gets brighter. If we knew everything completely accurately right now the watchtower would never have made all those mistakes. So I don’t understand your point here.

“This is not literal Israel but spiritual Israel..... “the Israel of God” (Galatians 6:16) This group is made up of the anointed ones from all nations, and all are chosen by God for their role in heaven. We cannot volunteer for this position although we can qualify for it by our faithful conduct. Since God chooses whomever he wishes, how can we be unsure of the validity of God’s word in this? Who does the "sealing"?

If it isn’t literal Israel then it isn’t a literal number. If the number is literal then they are also male virgins, not defiled by women.

I haven't finished, I'll carry on replying to your posts and explain about my studying...

 

[doxley]

These are not physical “virgins” because some of the apostles were married. nor are they all males since there is no gender in heaven. This is a purity of faith despite the imperfections of sin. When Israel strayed into false worship, Jehovah accused them of “adultery”, not physically, but spiritually. So these “chosen ones” have not strayed into false worship as Israel had done.

So 'virgins' is allegorical but the number 144,000 is literal?

The number 144,000 we believe is literal since it is contrasted with an infinite group who will survive Armageddon to become the nucleus of the new “earth”. But even if it is not literal, that does not alter the fact that these are chosen by God for their place in heaven as “kings and priests”. To me the number suggests order because God separated fleshly Israel into tribes and even in their encampments in the wilderness, the order was not to be broken. Even as they crossed through the Red Sea, they did so “in battle formation”, again suggesting order. Jehovah is a God of order and numbers in the Bible are often symbolic.

But you do believe the number is literal, a lot of watchtower doctrine is based on this as a literal number.

What the anointed ones have is an inordinate desire to go to heaven.....this is implanted by God to override their natural desire to stay here on earth.

So they are members of the 144,000 because they have an overwhelming feeling they are, God told them? So it's not really a scriptural practice just an emotional one.

Surely we can't just swap or change between the two in mid-sentence or the scriptures would be subject to all sorts of weird and wonderful sayings?

It makes complete sense when you consider that we are now in the closing moments of the “time of the end”, all foretold by Daniel.
We are living in the days when Daniel 2:44 is to have fulfillment.

It makes complete sense to swap between literal and allegorical meanings in the same sentence? Why? Just because we are in the last days? Are you not just trying to make the sentence say what you want it to say.

All Christians were in the running if they did as Peter said, but since God is the one who does the choosing, no one can be upset because they were not chosen....we will all serve our God in whatever capacity he decrees for us, happy to do so without feeling cheated. That is how you know you are living the truth. It’s never just about “you”...it is always about service to God as Jesus demonstrated when he gave up his life to save us. He agreed to become a mortal human and die a horrible death so that we might live. His willingness to become a humble human servant and teach other humans the value of putting yourself out for Jehovah and your fellow brothers and sisters, rings out from the pages of the Bible.

I can assure you I’m not debating this because I want to be chosen to go to heaven. It makes no difference to me, I don’t feel cheated. My point is about responding to the calling Christ makes on us in honesty and the way he intended it. None of us can know where we will be in the new heaven and earth, only God knows, no matter what you may feel emotionally.

I worry that putting our faith in an organisation and being led with the nose by them instead of singularly putting our faith on Jesus will damage our standing with him.

Can I ask what brought you to study with JW’s and what you expected to glean from it? You see, in accord with John 6:44 and 65 we see there that no one can come to Christ without an invitation from his Father.....if you have been invited then it is God who opens up his truth to you....Jesus said "you will know the truth” and it “will set you free”. If you still cling to old ideas then you are not free. Remember what Jesus offered to first century Jews....they either accepted it or they clung to their old ways.

I have studied with the Jehovah’s witnesses on and off for over 25 years but have never been baptized. God has called me for as long as I can remember but I got stuck on this religion and I need to deep dive into the things that always seem to make me walk away.

I have never been part of any other church. I have always thought for myself and I study the bible a lot. What you may not realize is that it is a lot harder to work out your own salvation than somebody to do it for you. But if you do it alone it means you are doing it because you fully believe and not because it is expected of you or that you are afraid of dying at Armageddon, or, and this is the worst, that you friends family and life are caught up in this organisation and there is nowhere else to go. Doing it yourself means you are giving freely and with a willing heart. I know JW’s like to say there is nowhere else to go anyways, there are no churches where you get to learn the bible like the JW’s do, and in some ways you are very right. But you can’t say that there is no Christianity out there, it’s everywhere, especially online, and if I were so inclined I could join several churches tomorrow, I just choose not to right now.

The biggest thing that makes me walk away from the JW religion is the faith I am supposed to have in the Governing Body. You can say that they are not our mediators or that they are not speaking for God, but they have the power to make you jump through hoops if they so desire. The information coming down, even in the last few weeks, has been to make sure everyone obey the orders they are sent – even if they don’t understand them. Otherwise they have the power to dis-fellowship and alienate people from their friends and family. They have the power to persuade a person to die rather than to take a blood transfusion and I could go on. I mean lets face it, if they turned around and told you Jesus is actually God next week, the majority of you would go along with it and call it new light. That's how much power they have over you.

 

[doxley]

P.s. I hope you will all study the responses I made to your points. As far as I can see you have not pointed out any irrefutable scripture that proves Jesus came to call two different classes of believer. I see one calling, one faith, one hope. I believe during the millennium people left on earth and those resurrected will be taught about God by those Christians who answer the call today.

 

[Enoch111]

As far as I can see you have not pointed out any irrefutable scripture that proves Jesus came to call two different classes of believer.

Doxley, don't waste your time on fruitless discussions with JWs. The bottom line is that they do not believe that Jesus is God. And if anyone does not have the doctrine of Christ, you are to leave them alone -- not even bid them "Godspeed".

 

[quietthinker]

Hello, first to introduce myself, I’m new here and am looking for a little help. I have studied with the Jehovah’s Witnesses several times now and am once again at a standstill with them. Though there are some doctrines I can agree with, there are a few that I don’t quite get and am wary of moving forward. I would like to address them on this board to see if I can glean any enlightenment from anyone at all, I don’t reject any Christian denomination. I study a lot and am not clueless enough to just follow along when something doesn’t look right.

First ‘The Great Crowd’, who are supposedly everyone other than the 144,000. They have an earthly hope of a paradise earth that will be ruled over by Jesus and the 144,000 during the 1000 year millennium (I believe they call this pre-millennialism).

I am not opposed to pre-millennialism, I think there is evidence for it in the scriptures, the Great Crowd however, I don’t see Jesus differentiating between believers. He talks about one hope only as far as I can see.

However, when you point out the scriptures about his believers going to heaven, I have been told that those portions of scripture are only pertinent towards the 144,000 and the ‘great crowd’ have no part in that. So they are really dissecting believers of Jesus (and the New Testament) into two classes, those for whom most of the new testament was written - the 144,000, and the rest, who only have an earthly hope after Armageddon and much of the New Testament isn’t about them. They believe their mediator is the Faithful and Discreet Slave (the Society/Watchtower/Governing Body) and not Jesus.

I see little evidence that ‘The Good News’ contained two separate hopes, Jesus didn’t talk about two sets of believers, only one. What do you think?

Matthew 7:21
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

Matthew 23:13
“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

Matthew 19:14
But Jesus said, “Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”

I don't find these scriptures complicated doxley. We are dealing with Jewish writers. They repeat the same thing in different ways the western mindset interprets as addressing a different matter when in fact it is the same looked at from a different angle.

In Rev. 7:4 John hears the number who were sealed (144 000)....a few verses down in vs 9 he looks and sees a great multitude. First he hears, then he looks.....it's the same crowd.
The numbers are figurative of all of God's people in time, again referenced in Rev.14:1-5

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Jesus came to call two different classes of believers?

Precious friend, a warm welcome to the board. Originally God Called Israel to
"Be HIS Chosen/Favoured people" through whom "the world would be blessed."
That is according to His [ earthly ] Prophetic program given to the twelve apostles,
with "the gospel of the kingdom."

Unfortunately, Israel fell, and so God Had to then "raise up His Chosen apostle,
Paul," to "send him To The Gentiles," With The Gospel Of The GRACE Of God,
In His [Heavenly] "Revelation Of The MYSTERY."

This then is the "one calling, one faith, one hope" that we have today,
for The Body Of CHRIST!

More deeper study of these Precious Biblical Gems are here:

God's Approval/TWO Gospels In Prophecy vs MYSTERY!

"Distinctions" of Prophecy vs MYSTERY!

doxley, precious friend, please be Very Richly Encouraged and Edified In
The LORD JESUS CHRIST, And HIS Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided!

 

[doxley]

Doxley, don't waste your time on fruitless discussions with JWs. The bottom line is that they do not believe that Jesus is God. And if anyone does not have the doctrine of Christ, you are to leave them alone -- not even bid them "Godspeed".

I appreciate what you're saying Enoch, but I wanted to get this monkey off my back of 25 years and give them one more chance to show me where the bible backs up their doctrine. So far they haven;t. Besides my thought is it might help others who get taught this way and are searching for clarification. Thanks anyway.

 

[Aunty Jane]

So I can see how you could frame his initial address as two different groups of followers but if you read just a little further down you see that he is saying that both of these groups are ‘called into fellowship with his Son’. That means they must all be anointed, fellowship means they are to be brothers of a sort.

Well, since all who become dedicated Christians by their baptism, it matters little if they are heaven bound or will enjoy paradise on earth.....all are redeemed sinners through the sacrifice of God's son. These are all brothers no matter if they are anointed or not. The anointed do not have any superior position whilst on earth.

1 Corinthians 1:2 to the congregation of God that is in Corinth,b to you who have been sanctified in union with Christ Jesus,c called to be holy ones, together with all those everywhere who are calling on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ,e their Lord and ours:.....9 ... by whom you were called into fellowship with his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

It is just a way of saying ‘to you who are here, and those out in the world’ Then he says; “called to be holy ones, together with all those everywhere who are calling on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ” Did you see that? Called to be holy ones TOGETHER.

You missed the most important part of the scripture.....1 Corinthians 1:2 ..." to the congregation of God that is in Corinth, to you who have been sanctified in union with Christ Jesus, called to be holy ones, together with all those everywhere who are calling on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:.....9 ... by whom you were called into fellowship with his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord."
All are in fellowship with Christ but not all have the heavenly calling. Not all can be "saints".....that would be like having a government full of Prime Ministers.

The gifts will cease when we can see accurately, face-to-face. That isn’t until we are with Jesus, not now!
1 Corinthians 13: But if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away with; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away with. 9 For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially, 10 but when what is complete comes, what is partial will be done away with. ………………………….12 For now we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face-to-face. At present I know partially,* but then I will know accurately,

It appears as if your studies have not really educated you very much. Do you understand that Jesus is already here, and has been since 1914 when he gained his Kingship. That was foreseen in Daniel 7:13-14.
His "presence" (“parousia”, Matthew 24:3) was indicated by the “sign” that he gave to demonstrate when the last days began. A series of world events that would show his disciples that he was "present" (not coming) and guiding them through this difficult period. Christ’s manifestation as judge comes at the end.

So you see, the vast majority of the anointed are already in heaven awaiting the gathering of the ones who are still with us on earth. Many have been seeing Jehovah and his son "face to face" for over 100 years. The relative "few" that remain till the end will not have to sleep in death, but will be instantly transformed to join Christ and his saints for the final Battle.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Surely you are not saying that we don’t still ‘see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror’. The Watchtower uses this saying to explain away mistakes it has made, saying the light gets brighter. If we knew everything completely accurately right now the watchtower would never have made all those mistakes. So I don’t understand your point here.

Actually if you understand about the FDS, you will know that the truth is dispensed through them incrementally. This composite slave was to give their fellow slaves their "food at the proper time". (Matthew 24:45) It is not all dished up in one "meal".
What we need to know is given when its the right time. Like Proverbs 4:18 says..."The light on the path gets brighter as the day dawns."

If it isn’t literal Israel then it isn’t a literal number. If the number is literal then they are also male virgins, not defiled by women.

Who said? The numbers in Revelation are there for a reason and in reality the numbers (literal or not) will not alter the foretold outcome.
The 'virginity' is spiritual....and there is no gender in heaven.....why do you want to argue with the Bible about that?

But you do believe the number is literal, a lot of watchtower doctrine is based on this as a literal number.

Its not actually. Its a number and numbers have significance for the Great Mathematician. It alters nothing if the number is not literal. The point is that the number is finite....the other number is not....why do you think that's the case?

If you want every "t" crossed and every "i" dotted, you've come to the wrong people. If you have been hanging around the doorway for all those years but haven't come in, why are you bothering? Just make a decision. Either JW's have the truth or they don't.
If they don't, then go and find a body of Christians who have a better "Christianity" to offer you.
If you are looking for something to suit yourself and you have never found it...Maybe you should ask yourself what it is that you are looking for.....?

So they are members of the 144,000 because they have an overwhelming feeling they are, God told them? So it's not really a scriptural practice just an emotional one.

No. It has nothing to do with emotion.....you know, the more you post the more I realize how little you know for someone whose been hanging around us for 25 years. The anointing that God gives is a firm conviction....they do not "think" they are anointed....they "know" they are....and it doesn’t matter if you believe it or not. That is between them and God.

Are you not just trying to make the sentence say what you want it to say

Are you not doing the same thing....? You want the truth to be what you want to believe. No one is going to change it for you.
It is offered on a "take it or leave it" basis....so if you don't want to take it....leave it. Simple. Problem solved.

My point is about responding to the calling Christ makes on us in honesty and the way he intended it. None of us can know where we will be in the new heaven and earth, only God knows, no matter what you may feel emotionally.

That is not what the scriptures tell us. I know exactly where I will be living....I have no doubt, just as the anointed have no doubt. I have no desire to go to heaven.

Philippians 3:12-15...
"Not that I have already received it or am already made perfect, but I am pressing on to see if I may also lay hold on that for which Christ Jesus selected me. 13 Brothers, I do not yet consider myself as having taken hold of it; but one thing is certain: Forgetting the things behind and stretching forward to the things ahead, 14 I am pressing on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God by means of Christ Jesus. 15 Therefore, let those of us who are mature be of this mental attitude, and if you are mentally inclined otherwise in any respect, God will reveal the above attitude to you."

It is God who gives us the confidence to be certain of our destiny.....whether in heaven or on earth. As long as we stay on the path set for us, we will achieve our goal.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I worry that putting our faith in an organisation and being led with the nose by them instead of singularly putting our faith on Jesus will damage our standing with him.

Perhaps your indecision is also damaging your standing with him....did you ever think of that?

I have studied with the Jehovah’s witnesses on and off for over 25 years but have never been baptized. God has called me for as long as I can remember but I got stuck on this religion and I need to deep dive into the things that always seem to make me walk away.

What if the things that ‘make you walk away’ are the things that will help you gain everlasting life? Maybe you should just walk away.....but we always ask....where else will you go...? Once you are disillusioned with Christendom’s doctrines, who else has dispensed with them? Who actually teaches what you want to believe?

I have never been part of any other church. I have always thought for myself and I study the bible a lot. What you may not realize is that it is a lot harder to work out your own salvation than somebody to do it for you. But if you do it alone it means you are doing it because you fully believe and not because it is expected of you or that you are afraid of dying at Armageddon, or, and this is the worst, that you friends family and life are caught up in this organisation and there is nowhere else to go. Doing it yourself means you are giving freely and with a willing heart. I know JW’s like to say there is nowhere else to go anyways, there are no churches where you get to learn the bible like the JW’s do, and in some ways you are very right. But you can’t say that there is no Christianity out there, it’s everywhere, especially online, and if I were so inclined I could join several churches tomorrow, I just choose not to right now.

Has God ever left anyone to figure things out for themselves? Honestly.....if God has always provided teachers and shepherds for his people throughout their entire existence, why would you assume that independent thinking will get you anywhere? Look where independent thinking got Adam and his wife....

Why do you think that Christianity is such a disunited mess? The “wheat” are out there among the “weeds”.....we just have to locate them and learn from them. The FDS is out there too and if he is not directing JW's, then best you find him out there among those Christians and stop thinking that something is going to change with JW’s when you seem to refuse to.
It is not our job to convince you...the holy spirit does that. We are just the messengers.

The biggest thing that makes me walk away from the JW religion is the faith I am supposed to have in the Governing Body. You can say that they are not our mediators or that they are not speaking for God, but they have the power to make you jump through hoops if they so desire.

I'm sorry but they have no power whatsoever. They are guides and teachers....which God has provided throughout all the ages.
These shepherds are God's servants...we are not their servants. God appoints them to care for his sheep. They have responsibilities in that role which includes keeping the congregation clean...morally and spiritually.

The information coming down, even in the last few weeks, has been to make sure everyone obey the orders they are sent – even if they don’t understand them. Otherwise they have the power to dis-fellowship and alienate people from their friends and family.

There are no "orders"...there are recommendations, just as there were in the first century.....but no one is forced to obey any man against their will. If we recognize that these shepherds are answerable to God for our well being, then Hebrews 13:17 will be true for us.
"Obey your leaders and submit to them—for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account—so that they may do this with joy, not groaning; for this would be unhelpful for you." (NASB)

I mean lets face it, if they turned around and told you Jesus is actually God next week, the majority of you would go along with it and call it new light. That's how much power they have over you.

If that is what you think, I believe that the attitude you demonstrate here is enough for me to assume that no light will ever be good enough for you. You want a religion to suit you.....I hope you find it, but I don’t think you will find it with JW's.

As far as I can see you have not pointed out any irrefutable scripture that proves Jesus came to call two different classes of believer. I see one calling, one faith, one hope. I believe during the millennium people left on earth and those resurrected will be taught about God by those Christians who answer the call today.

It wouldn't matter what anyone showed you....you would still find fault. My advice is to give it up, and do yourself a favor.....go find yourself a church that agrees with what you want to believe.....we apparently just don’t have what you are looking for. Shame it took 25 years to find that out....

 

[Davy]

Hello, first to introduce myself, I’m new here and am looking for a little help. I have studied with the Jehovah’s Witnesses several times now and am once again at a standstill with them. Though there are some doctrines I can agree with, there are a few that I don’t quite get and am wary of moving forward. I would like to address them on this board to see if I can glean any enlightenment from anyone at all, I don’t reject any Christian denomination. I study a lot and am not clueless enough to just follow along when something doesn’t look right.

Howdy. I wouldn't worry about not agreeing with denominations, not if you are sincerely after God's Truth in His Word. If other denominations agree with His Word, then fine. If they don't, then that's just an easy sign that they are not following His Word, so the shame is on them, not you for refusing to agree with them. If there's something you don't understand, your first move should be to pray to our Heavenly Father and His Son about it, and then study with discipline. Sometimes He will send someone to help you with it, or direct you to a place to learn, but you still need to confirm it for yourself in His Word with His help.

First ‘The Great Crowd’, who are supposedly everyone other than the 144,000. They have an earthly hope of a paradise earth that will be ruled over by Jesus and the 144,000 during the 1000 year millennium (I believe they call this pre-millennialism).

Pre-millennialism is the idea that Lord Jesus returns to end this present world, and then He begins a "thousand years" reign over the unsaved nations with "a rod of iron", and His elect reign with Him (as written in Revelation 20). The opposite doctrine of that is called Amillennialism, which believes when Jesus comes, all the wicked are then destroyed, and we then go immediately into the new heavens and a new earth time, God's Eternity. They do not believe the "thousand years" reign by Christ in Revelation 20 is literal. (I definitely do though, and that future "thousand years" reign can be backed up in the Old Testament prophets).

I am not opposed to pre-millennialism, I think there is evidence for it in the scriptures, the Great Crowd however, I don’t see Jesus differentiating between believers. He talks about one hope only as far as I can see.

That's good that you're not opposed to it, because that pre-millennial event of Christ's future "thousand years" reign is actually written in God's Word.

However, when you point out the scriptures about his believers going to heaven, I have been told that those portions of scripture are only pertinent towards the 144,000 and the ‘great crowd’ have no part in that. So they are really dissecting believers of Jesus (and the New Testament) into two classes, those for whom most of the new testament was written - the 144,000, and the rest, who only have an earthly hope after Armageddon and much of the New Testament isn’t about them. They believe their mediator is the Faithful and Discreet Slave (the Society/Watchtower/Governing Body) and not Jesus.

I must warn you, the JW group is a cult, because it was founded by 1 man, Charles Taz Russel. They have their own Bible version too. Russel created a bunch of private Bible studies, and claimed if his students just stuck to his studies, they wouldn't even need a Bible. That kind of working by one man is what a cult is.

And even though they do believe some things written in God's True Word, that still does not mean all they hold to is God's Truth, which also is how a cult must work to present itself as believable.

Now, to the actual Scripture.

In the first part of Revelation 7, it is only pointing to the children of Israel, specifically 12,000 out of each one of the 12 tribes of Israel, making up 144,000. Those are to be sealed with God's seal prior to the trib and the end.

However, starting at Revelation 7:9, John is also shown a "great multitude", and look at where John sees them...

Rev 7:9-12
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb."

Ask yourself, if those are standing before the throne, before The Lamb (Jesus), clothed with white robes and palms in their hands, does that show they have been saved by Jesus Christ? YEAH! Definitely!

But where, and WHEN is that taking place?

One of the elders John sees came to Apostle John and asked him...

Rev 7:13-17
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, "What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?"

14 And I said unto him, "Sir, thou knowest." And he said to me, "These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple: and He That sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

The elder tells John that "great multitude" came out of great tribulation, and by that they washed their robes and made them white in the Blood of The Lamb (Jesus). That means they 'overcame' through the tribulation. And that means this 'view' John sees of them next to Christ's throne has to be what time? the Millennial time after Christ has returned. More proof that is the time is given next...

16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb Which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
KJV

Those verses are pointing to the glorious spiritual body of the future world when Jesus returns (1 Corinthians 15). And so does those "living fountains of waters" especially point to Christ's future Millennium temple reign of Ezekiel 47 mentioned also in Revelation 22.

And what did Apostle Paul show what it means to be 'sealed' with God's seal? It is the sealing by The Holy Spirit to those who have the Faith in Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 1:21-22; Ephesians 1:13).

Does that mean that "great multitude" had to have been 'sealed' with God's seal also for the tribulation? Yes! definitely. Revelation 9 tells us the locusts can only sting those NOT sealed with God's seal.

What we have in Revelation 7 then, is two groups of believers on Christ, the 144,000 faithful of the twelve tribes mentioned there, and also a "great multitude" of Gentile believers on Christ, both together as one body, representing Christ's Church.

 

[doxley]

Perhaps your indecision is also damaging your standing with him....did you ever think of that?..................If that is what you think, I believe that the attitude you demonstrate here is enough for me to assume that no light will ever be good enough for you. You want a religion to suit you.....I hope you find it, but I don’t think you will find it with JW's...............It wouldn't matter what anyone showed you....you would still find fault. My advice is to give it up, and do yourself a favor.....go find yourself a church that agrees with what you want to believe.....we apparently just don’t have what you are looking for. Shame it took 25 years to find that out....

So because I didn’t feel you had scriptural evidence to back up some of your doctrines you decide to give me a dressing down to make yourself feel better.

I feel sorry for you if you believe you are not controlled. It’s classic Cognitive Dissonance, most of you suffer from it. Those that start to think for themselves and question the validity of the FDS are either shamed into silence or disfellowshipped and shunned.

Just because I haven’t committed to your religion doesn’t mean I’ve been without God for the last 25 years! I know you like to think God can only be found within your organization but you are grossly mistaken. And I don’t need other people’s doctrines to become disillusioned with. I have a mind and can read. The law is written on our hearts and we are to worship in spirit and truth. There comes a point where it doesn’t really matter which interpretations you believe or don’t. People get too hung up about them and become defensive and divisive. It’s better to leave some things to God and listen to your conscience.

It’s true, I’ve been indecisive and studied with this religion a few times, I have friends in it and it simply would be easier to just go along with them and join in. But each time I get so far, I start to notice the organisation aspect of the faith coil around me and the only way I can go forward is to find proof in the bible that it’s the right thing to do. But I never find it. I’m honest with myself like that.

You know there are other churches with the same kinds of beliefs as yours, only they don’t have a great big offensive government at the top who claim they have been chosen by God to shepherd all Christians on earth.

I could join them if I wanted to but maybe some of us are meant to do this alone. I mean your religion would never have been born if Pastor Russel hadn’t struck out on his own because he was disillusioned with the Christians around him (no internet in those days). Though I will say he vehemently warned against any kind of organization with regard to someone’s faith. Funny that. I can find the quotes if you’re interested.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Jesus wasn’t singling groups of people out in MT 5:5. he was talking to the crowd as a whole. He talked about both heaven and earth and I’ve already said I believe in premillennialism which means I believe in a millennium reign of Christ on earth. I’m just not sure it’s up to mere men to decide who goes where.
The following verses all talk about one flock and one shepherd, not two separate classes of sheep. In John 10:16 he is talking about grafting the gentiles into ‘The Israel of God’.

John 10:16 “And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold;n those too I must bring in, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.
Ezekiel 34:23 I will raise up one shepherd over them, my servant David, and he will feed them. He himself will feed them and become their shepherd.
Ezekiel 37:24 “‘“My servant David will be their king, and they will all have one shepherd. They will walk in my judicial decisions and carefully observe my statutes
1 Peter 5:4 And when the chief shepherd has been made manifest, you will receive the unfading crown of glory.

Also note Ezekiel 34:24 – “he himself will feed them”, not a governing body of men.


where does it teach this?


If I use this reasoning then only those apostles are part of that covenant and no one else. You can’t pick or choose who to apply it to, it is either meant as God’s word to us as humans, and therefore not discriminative, or it is a story about how Jesus made a special covenant with some disciples sat at his table and no one else.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Jesus wasn’t singling groups of people out in MT 5:5. he was talking to the crowd as a whole. He talked about both heaven and earth and I’ve already said I believe in premillennialism which means I believe in a millennium reign of Christ on earth. I’m just not sure it’s up to mere men to decide who goes where.
The following verses all talk about one flock and one shepherd, not two separate classes of sheep. In John 10:16 he is talking about grafting the gentiles into ‘The Israel of God’.

John 10:16 “And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold;n those too I must bring in, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.
Ezekiel 34:23 I will raise up one shepherd over them, my servant David, and he will feed them. He himself will feed them and become their shepherd.
Ezekiel 37:24 “‘“My servant David will be their king, and they will all have one shepherd. They will walk in my judicial decisions and carefully observe my statutes
1 Peter 5:4 And when the chief shepherd has been made manifest, you will receive the unfading crown of glory.

Also note Ezekiel 34:24 – “he himself will feed them”, not a governing body of men.


where does it teach this?


If I use this reasoning then only those apostles are part of that covenant and no one else. You can’t pick or choose who to apply it to, it is either meant as God’s word to us as humans, and therefore not discriminative, or it is a story about how Jesus made a special covenant with some disciples sat at his table and no one else.

You do realize that the sermon on the mount was to Jews and some proselytes correct?

I see you recognize the Israel of God, do you think these are the little flock, the 144k?

Jesus assignment of the faithful slave to feed his sheep is recorded for us at Mat 24:45-47

 

[Robert Gwin]

You say the evidence is quite clear. Evidence for what?
And why is the slave noted as discreet? Why does he have to be?

That was the translators choice of the version I stated it from, the KJV uses wise if that helps maam. Why the need to be descreet? “Discreet” translates the Greek word phroʹni·mos. The work Word Studies in the New Testament, by M. R. Vincent, comments that this word most frequently refers to practical wisdom and prudence.

Sorry for the length Cassy:
Why did Jesus call them discreet?
We can best understand from Jesus’ own teaching what he might have meant by the word “discreet.” For example, when he spoke of “the faithful and discreet slave,” Jesus gave the parable of the ten virgins who were watching for the arrival of the bridegroom. The virgins remind us of anointed Christians before 1914 who were eagerly waiting for the arrival of the great Bridegroom, Jesus Christ. Of the ten virgins, five did not have enough oil when the bridegroom arrived, and they missed out on the marriage feast. The other five proved to be discreet. They had provisioned themselves with enough oil so that they could continue to shed light when the bridegroom arrived and they were allowed into the feast.—Matthew 25:10-12.

When Jesus came into his Kingdom authority in 1914, many among the anointed Christians were expecting to join him immediately in heaven. However, there was more work for them to do on earth, and some were not prepared for that. Like the indiscreet virgins, they had not strengthened themselves spiritually in advance, so they were unprepared to continue as light bearers. Most, though, had acted discreetly—with wisdom and foresight—and were spiritually fortified. When they learned that more work lay ahead, they joyfully set about accomplishing it. Hence, they proved to be “the faithful and discreet slave.”

Consider also Jesus’ use of the word “discreet” at Matthew 7:24. Jesus said: “Everyone that hears these sayings of mine and does them will be likened to a discreet man, who built his house upon the rock-mass.” The discreet man builds solidly, in view of the possibility of a storm. In contrast, the foolish man builds on sand and loses his house. Thus, a discreet follower of Jesus is one who foresees the bad consequences of following human wisdom. His discernment and good judgment lead him to base his faith, actions, and teachings firmly on what Jesus taught. “The faithful and discreet slave” acts similarly.

Notice, too, the use of the word rendered “discreet” in many versions of the Hebrew Scriptures. For example, Pharaoh appointed Joseph over Egypt’s food supply. This was part of Jehovah’s arrangement to provide food for his people. Why was Joseph chosen? Pharaoh said to him: “There is no one as discreet and wise as you are.” (Genesis 41:33-39; 45:5) Similarly, the Bible says that Abigail was “good in discretion.” She provided food for Jehovah’s anointed one, David, and for his men. (1 Samuel 25:3, 11, 18) Joseph and Abigail could be called discreet because they discerned God’s will and acted with foresight and good judgment.

Hence, when Jesus described the faithful slave as discreet, he indicated that those represented by that slave would display discernment, foresight, and good judgment because they base their faith, actions, and teachings on God’s Word of truth.

 

[Cassandra]

When Jesus came into his Kingdom authority in 1914,

How about some sort of timeline here,and not a guess because of trends

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Yes they think the great crowd are mediated by the FDS and only the 144,00 are mediated by Jesus. Their communion consists of only the 144,000 drinking the wine, everyone else just passes it along without drinking.

Wow, I didn’t know that. Considering that communion is a lovely picture of our intimate communion with God, I find that weird that anyone given a down payment of the Holy Spirit would be prevented. But at least they aren’t forbidden by God to true communion in spirit and truth! He seeks men who will worship and commune in spirit and truth.