The Great Crowd

[bbyrd009]

Thank you Enoch. I'm obviously on the right path then. It looks to me like they are in heaven too. I wanted to see if they could show me why I need the organisation to mediate for me. So they are basically cutting people off from Jesus.

using the name invented by the Masoretes might be a clue, i mean whats wrong with YHWH?

The kingdom of heaven is within
No one has ever gone up to heaven but He Who came down from it, the Son of man

Hi Mark, sorry, you've totally lost me here

Sol Invictus | Wikiwand
although there are likely mistakes in there as well, Jesus is pretty obviously playing the “Apollos” part now, etc

 

[doxley]

Wow, I didn’t know that. Considering that communion is a lovely picture of our intimate communion with God, I find that weird that anyone given a down payment of the Holy Spirit would be prevented. But at least they aren’t forbidden by God to true communion in spirit and truth! He seeks men who will worship and commune in spirit and truth.

I think I got that wrong, Jesus still mediates for them but they aren't allowed into the new covenant, that's why they just pass the wine and don't drink it.
Yes I agree, no man can stop true communion with God.

 

[Behold]

First ‘The Great Crowd’, who are supposedly everyone other than the 144,000. They have an earthly hope of a paradise earth that will be ruled over by Jesus and the 144,000 during the 1000 year millennium (I believe they call this pre-millennialism).

Cults tend to use one " psychological leverage" against people that is their well trained manipulation operation.
What they do is "get you into their little religious club".....as if they have a mystical secret power or some advance revelation that only their "little religious club" can offer you, and you can be a part of it..
Such as....."we are the only ones"......or ..."we are the one true church"...

See, its always the "we" who are true, vs, all the rest who are liars, satanic, etc.

This is their way of pulling you into their CULT.

"Us vs them"
"WE vs the rest"

Here is what God said.......>"I sent myself, wrapped in human Flesh, born of a Virgin, to the CROSS for the sin of the world, and if you will come to JESUS......believing, i will take you into my Eternal Family right now"...

>>>>>>>> You take CHRIST.....I TAKE YOU<<<<<<<<<

See it?
That is John 3:16.
That is God's offer of the CROSS and JESUS THE CHRIST, to you, to me, to us ALL...........

CULTS, want to change this offer from "ALL".....into......"some are called, some are chosen"....."just US".


See that?
So, when you run into this CULT Manipulation, where they twist VERSES to try to sign you up ...then GET AWAY FROM THEM. !

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I think I got that wrong, Jesus still mediates for them but they aren't allowed into the new covenant, that's why they just pass the wine and don't drink it.
Yes I agree, no man can stop true communion with God.

Aww…that’s…hideous. Makes me sad for them. Also makes me look differently at SDA.

 

[quietthinker]

Aww…that’s…hideous. Makes me sad for them. Also makes me look differently at SDA.

I think it's JW's that doxley is talking about

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I think it's JW's that doxley is talking about

Oh, my mistake! Oh, yes, I’ve met a few SDA who were lovely. I’m confused now though…which ones do some elaborate ceremony to ensure you will stay married to your husband or wife in heaven?

 

[Cassandra]

Oh, my mistake! Oh, yes, I’ve met a few SDA who were lovely. I’m confused now though…which ones do some elaborate ceremony to ensure you will stay married to your husband or wife in heaven?

Latter Day Saints--Temple marriage.

 

[Cassandra]

I am SDA, and you are welcome to take Communion at our church.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Latter Day Saints--Temple marriage.

Oh, I was thinking Mormon…I just get them all confused anymore. There is no denomination out there that I don’t disagree with some things they say or do. Literally, not even one.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Latter Day Saints--Temple marriage.

If you don’t do the ceremony…what do they say happens?

 

[Cassandra]

If you don’t do the ceremony…what do they say happens?

you mean LDS?? I think if they get married in the Temple that they are married for time and eternity. I think you can create spirit babies, but I'm not sure. I don't think it is a requirement to get married in the Temple though.
I was raised in the LDS church, but left after one of the Mormon missionaries told me that God has a wife. I asked him how God made spirit babies and he said "How do you think?" Nope. I got out of that church when i was a teen.

 

[quietthinker]

The religious obsession (and it matters not which) obscures the cosmic issues at stake.
The focus on the minor and distortion of the major has men scrambling and at each others throats not just in the religious world but the political and social world also. Attempting to communicate what is basically simple has even God tearing his hair out so to speak.....just look at the history of Israel after their escape from Egypt.

Self honesty is a rarity. Without the willingness for self honesty as the major priority, the confusion only compounds.

 

[Aunty Jane]

You know there are other churches with the same kinds of beliefs as yours, only they don’t have a great big offensive government at the top who claim they have been chosen by God to shepherd all Christians on earth.

I was actually waiting for that response....sadly you did not disappoint me. Poke the bear and you see his teeth.....
I didn't really poke you that hard though, did I? I just wanted you to be truthful and you were...it told me a great deal about you actually.

So, I will say again......please feel free to join whatever church makes you feel at home....with no “great big offensive government at the top who claim they have been chosen by God to shepherd all Christians on earth”....good grief!.....if a body of elders who are guiding and directing their charges fits the description of a “great big offensive government”....then something is horribly wrong with your perceptions I'm afraid. (The FDS are not a 'government', they are not big, nor are they offensive to us, but like the first century they make up a central “governing body” to guide and direct and "feed" Christ's disciples....that's not the same at all.)

....I’m sure any church would be happy to have you....but I’m afraid you will definitely not fit into our brotherhood. (1 Corinthians 1:10) If you disagree with so much, why would you want to anyway?
It’s decision time, and I don't think this close to the gt. tribulation, that anyone should delay in making it....do you?

Do “Sheep without a shepherd” do well in your estimations? Is that what Jesus said? Is that what Paul said? Do you know better than them? Are you 'special'? (Hebrews 13:17)

You do understand that when you choose the path, you choose the destination?

If God must agree with you.....well, all I can say is.....all the best with that.
Has no one been this honest with you before? Or did you just never tell them how you really felt? I have no idea why you hung around so long TBH.
See what honesty does for you? It’s a divider, as it should be. (Hebrews 4:12)

May you have peace in your decision. I hope you can walk away confident of your choice. Get that monkey off you back once and for all. That is what you said you wanted after all....

 

[Aunty Jane]

I think I got that wrong, Jesus still mediates for them but they aren't allowed into the new covenant, that's why they just pass the wine and don't drink it.
Yes I agree, no man can stop true communion with God.

Seriously, you've got so much wrong, its no wonder that you have never walked through the door....

@stunnedbygrace Jesus is our only mediator. He is the one who inaugurated the "New Covenant" which was "for a Kingdom"....to be parties to that covenant you have to be of the elect. The bread and wine are symbols of Jesus' death and in order to be baptized into Christ, it means that you too will experience a death and resurrection like his. Not all Christians have the "heavenly calling" as Paul said. (1 Corinthians 1:2) We all have the same "Lord".

For the majority of JW's alive at this time, an earthly hope means that they are beneficiaries of the New Covenant, but not parties to it. Only the anointed can partake of the emblems because they will be the ones dispensing its benefits to earth's redeemed inhabitants. (Revelation 21:2-4) We commemorate the Memorial of Christ's death every years as respectful observers, but not as partakers if we are not anointed.

Paul warned...1 Corinthians 11:27-29....
"Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy way, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. 28 But a person must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For the one who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not properly recognize the body." (NASB)

The "body of Christ" are his elect, so if you are not one of his elect (chosen by God to become "joint-heirs with Christ" in his Kingdom) and you partake of the bread and the wine unworthily, you can expect judgment. That is how we understand these things.

 

[quietthinker]

The "body of Christ" are his elect, so if you are not one of his elect (chosen by God to become "joint-heirs with Christ" in his Kingdom) and you partake of the bread and the wine unworthily, you can expect judgment. That is how we understand these things.

Judgement is the focus in your system....it can't help but be AJ, the theology lends itself to it.
A God to be feared, a God who must be respected.....not a God one can be intimate with in fellowship.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Judgement is the focus in your system....it can't help but be AJ, the theology lends itself to it.
A God to be feared, a God who must be respected.....not a God one can be intimate with in fellowship.

Don't look now QT, but judgment has been the focus since Adam and his wife ate of the forbidden fruit....
Where have you been?

A God who is feared is respected...because it is a wholesome fear of displeasing him, not a morbid fear of punishment.

Jesus came to show us that his God was the one he imitated, so why would we not have fellowship with our Creator after seeing how Jesus cared for his disciples?

You seem to want to turn the God of the Bible into an all forgiving sop who just waves his hand and winks at sin. That is not the God who brought a global deluge on a world of the ungodly....or who punished Israel with exile to Babylon for 70 years for their wicked disobedience, or who made the complaining Israelites wander in the wilderness until all who rebelled against him were dead. Out of all who escaped from Egypt only Joshua and Caleb made it into the Promised Land....Moses didn't even get there....so who are you talking about? Who is this god of yours? I do not know him.....but he seems to be a very convenient invention to accommodate your vision of him.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Hello, first to introduce myself, I’m new here and am looking for a little help. I have studied with the Jehovah’s Witnesses several times now and am once again at a standstill with them. Though there are some doctrines I can agree with, there are a few that I don’t quite get and am wary of moving forward. I would like to address them on this board to see if I can glean any enlightenment from anyone at all, I don’t reject any Christian denomination. I study a lot and am not clueless enough to just follow along when something doesn’t look right.

First ‘The Great Crowd’, who are supposedly everyone other than the 144,000. They have an earthly hope of a paradise earth that will be ruled over by Jesus and the 144,000 during the 1000 year millennium (I believe they call this pre-millennialism).

I am not opposed to pre-millennialism, I think there is evidence for it in the scriptures, the Great Crowd however, I don’t see Jesus differentiating between believers. He talks about one hope only as far as I can see.

However, when you point out the scriptures about his believers going to heaven, I have been told that those portions of scripture are only pertinent towards the 144,000 and the ‘great crowd’ have no part in that. So they are really dissecting believers of Jesus (and the New Testament) into two classes, those for whom most of the new testament was written - the 144,000, and the rest, who only have an earthly hope after Armageddon and much of the New Testament isn’t about them. They believe their mediator is the Faithful and Discreet Slave (the Society/Watchtower/Governing Body) and not Jesus.

I see little evidence that ‘The Good News’ contained two separate hopes, Jesus didn’t talk about two sets of believers, only one. What do you think?

Matthew 7:21
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

Matthew 23:13
“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

Matthew 19:14
But Jesus said, “Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”

I'm a person whom believes firmly in loving your neighbor & treating them with with respect. This has led me to study dozens of faiths, not because I'm seeking God's Truth there but simply to better understand & love the people in those congregations. I've seen many many saints and devils quote scripture to defend their beliefs, but I do want to better understand & love my neighbor.

That was my motivation for studying JW beliefs, attending their services, chatting with members etc. My very first service visiting: the speaker repeatedly threatened the members of his own congregation of all the horrible things that would happen if they left the JW organization. He advocated shunning those that left, scorning those outside the organization, and the evils of education outside of approved Watchtower materials. I was VERY taken aback.

Thinking this was just a bad apple, I tried a different congregation in another city, and was greeted with more of the same. And third, and fourth,a and fifth. And many times thereafter. When I asked questions I got recited responses that didn't really have to do with my questions. I grew very very frustrated at lack of answers and being scorned because I do not find God through the JW organization. It all and all was a very negative experience.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I'm a person whom believes firmly in loving your neighbor & treating them with with respect. This has led me to study dozens of faiths, not because I'm seeking God's Truth there but simply to better understand & love the people in those congregations. I've seen many many saints and devils quote scripture to defend their beliefs, but I do want to better understand & love my neighbor.

That was my motivation for studying JW beliefs, attending their services, chatting with members etc. My very first service visiting: the speaker repeatedly threatened the members of his own congregation of all the horrible things that would happen if they left the JW organization. He advocated shunning those that left, scorning those outside the organization, and the evils of education outside of approved Watchtower materials. I was VERY taken aback.

Thinking this was just a bad apple, I tried a different congregation in another city, and was greeted with more of the same. And third, and fourth,a and fifth. And many times thereafter. When I asked questions I got recited responses that didn't really have to do with my questions. I grew very very frustrated at lack of answers and being scorned because I do not find God through the JW organization. It all and all was a very negative experience.

Just a few question JD...
How long ago was your experience, as we are a progressive organization and I have not heard of anything like that for many decades. Our message has not changed, as we still believe what the Bible says about false teachers, but our method of delivery certainly has. Christendom has its own "fire and brimstone" threats of hellfire.....but we have never had that. The worst thing that can happen to anyone in our ranks is what is contained in the scripture that pertained to the first Christians....

1 Corinthians 5:11-13....
"I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people; 10 I did not at all mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the greedy and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to leave the world. 11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is a sexually immoral person, or a greedy person, or an idolater, or is verbally abusive, or habitually drunk, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a person. 12 For what business of mine is it to judge outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? 13 But those who are outside, God judges. Remove the evil person from among yourselves."

Excommunication is simply disfellowshipping. Removing a person from fellowship with the congregation. They are not prevented from attending meetings and are encouraged to come back into the fold. No one is disfellowshipped lightly. It is a form of discipline, but completely lost on today's world. (Hebrews 12:5-6)

2 John 9-10 also mentions those who want to bring in their own ideas, causing divisions among the brotherhood....
"Anyone who goes too far and does not remain in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who remains in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting".

Today that may seem harsh, but it is straight from God's word.
So any church that does not practice these forms of discipline, cannot claim to be obedient to the teachings of the Bible.
Too many churches are so lenient that the unrepentant sinners sit among them whilst they are afraid to expel them because they might not get their money each week to pay the pastor. Where is faith in God then? Can anyone expect God's blessing if they are not obedient to the word?

The "evils outside of the organization" are usually in the form of hostility from those who are ex's with an axe to grind, or others who have misinterpreted something they heard a very long time ago, or from hear-say.

If you went to the meeting with a wrong attitude...looking to find fault, no doubt you would find some....we are not perfect by a long shot, but we do know our Bible, and we will teach anyone who wants to know.....but there is never any compromise on what the scriptures tell us is true. Those who become JW's do so because they want to, not because they are scared into it by some perceived threats. God's word needs no excuses for not obeying his directives.

You already had a spiritual home, so with what attitude did you approach all those churches you went to? Weren't you comparing what you already accepted as truth with what you were hearing at those services? You said you weren't looking for God's truth, because you assumed you already had it.....but under the guise of "understanding" these other faiths, were you not looking to simply reinforce your own views?

Just trying to understand where you are coming from....

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Just a few question JD...
How long ago was your experience, as we are a progressive organization and I have not heard of anything like that for many decades. Our message has not changed, as we still believe what the Bible says about false teachers, but our method of delivery certainly has. Christendom has its own "fire and brimstone" threats of hellfire.....but we have never had that. The worst thing that can happen to anyone in our ranks is what is contained in the scripture that pertained to the first Christians....

1 Corinthians 5:11-13....
"I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people; 10 I did not at all mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the greedy and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to leave the world. 11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is a sexually immoral person, or a greedy person, or an idolater, or is verbally abusive, or habitually drunk, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a person. 12 For what business of mine is it to judge outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? 13 But those who are outside, God judges. Remove the evil person from among yourselves."

Excommunication is simply disfellowshipping. Removing a person from fellowship with the congregation. They are not prevented from attending meetings and are encouraged to come back into the fold. No one is disfellowshipped lightly. It is a form of discipline, but completely lost on today's world. (Hebrews 12:5-6)

2 John 9-10 also mentions those who want to bring in their own ideas, causing divisions among the brotherhood....
"Anyone who goes too far and does not remain in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who remains in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting".

Today that may seem harsh, but it is straight from God's word.
So any church that does not practice these forms of discipline, cannot claim to be obedient to the teachings of the Bible.
Too many churches are so lenient that the unrepentant sinners sit among them whilst they are afraid to expel them because they might not get their money each week to pay the pastor. Where is faith in God then? Can anyone expect God's blessing if they are not obedient to the word?

The "evils outside of the organization" are usually in the form of hostility from those who are ex's with an axe to grind, or others who have misinterpreted something they heard a very long time ago, or from hear-say.

If you went to the meeting with a wrong attitude...looking to find fault, no doubt you would find some....we are not perfect by a long shot, but we do know our Bible, and we will teach anyone who wants to know.....but there is never any compromise on what the scriptures tell us is true. Those who become JW's do so because they want to, not because they are scared into it by some perceived threats. God's word needs no excuses for not obeying his directives.

You already had a spiritual home, so with what attitude did you approach all those churches you went to? Weren't you comparing what you already accepted as truth with what you were hearing at those services? You said you weren't looking for God's truth, because you assumed you already had it.....but under the guise of "understanding" these other faiths, were you not looking to simply reinforce your own views?

Just trying to understand where you are coming from....

I went expecting to see a community that love Christ. That preaches and practices that love, honoring the two Great Commandments. Horribly Misunderstood by others and wrongly persecuted. Studiers of God. Whom do have some bueatiful beliefs and practices.

I wanted so deeply to see that.

 

[quietthinker]

Don't look now QT, but judgment has been the focus since Adam and his wife ate of the forbidden fruit....
Where have you been?

A God who is feared is respected...because it is a wholesome fear of displeasing him, not a morbid fear of punishment.

Jesus came to show us that his God was the one he imitated, so why would we not have fellowship with our Creator after seeing how Jesus cared for his disciples?

You seem to want to turn the God of the Bible into an all forgiving sop who just waves his hand and winks at sin. That is not the God who brought a global deluge on a world of the ungodly....or who punished Israel with exile to Babylon for 70 years for their wicked disobedience, or who made the complaining Israelites wander in the wilderness until all who rebelled against him were dead. Out of all who escaped from Egypt only Joshua and Caleb made it into the Promised Land....Moses didn't even get there....so who are you talking about? Who is this god of yours? I do not know him.....but he seems to be a very convenient invention to accommodate your vision of him.

You are right AJ when you asked 'Who is this god of yours? I do not know him'
My God is one I call Abba Father and his Spirit resides in my heart as promised. He is one who gave his life for sinners.....one who said, I am the resurrection and the life. The scripture tells me it is the devil who has the power of Death and it also tells me who beat the devil. Hebrews 2:14

If Jesus is the revealing of how God is, do you really think it was God who was responsible for the antediluvians being drowned?, who sent fire to fry the men, women and children of Sodom? who inspired the Israelites to commit genocide etc etc?

To quote you 'You seem to want to turn the God of the Bible into an all forgiving sop who just waves his hand and winks at sin'.....
For you to make such a statement is indicative you have hardly any idea what the incarnation was about or the risk God took by entering human history as a man.

Jesus is the definitive word of God (Hebrews 1:1-3) and by God the Fathers own witness several times....at his baptism and on the mount of transfiguration. We are told to listen to him. Jesus was the one who straightened out the misconceptions the Prophets held of God including the misconceptions all humanity has had of God ie, a God bent on vengeance!
Oh how subtle the devil is while dressing himself up as God and painting God with his own attributes.....attributes of destruction.....one who is itching to pull the trigger.....and oh how his children pedal the same story....often unconscious they are doing his work.