Rich R
Well-Known Member
Anything that happened in the past could happen again. It's not God's idea, but He gave us free will and as Paul said, "...there is no good thing in the flesh..." It'll all get resolved in the end though.
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There are no "lucky" in God's vocabulary. "As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive" we read.
Where do you read that anyone has a "free will" seeing that Scripture declares, "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God."
If there is none that seeks after God, how then can anyone have free will?
N-O-N-E, N-A-D-A, Z-I-L-C-H, Z-E-R-O!!!
The only humans who have free will is Adam and Eve.
You're beginning to show your lack in knowledge of Scripture. I expected more of that from you, or is it because I don't really know you as I thought I did.
1John 5:v.7
There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father-The WORD- , the Word-The Word made flesh-JESUS- , and the Holy Spirit (who is not a ghost as is written in English language, but a Person) : and these three are One.
THREE DISTINCT DIVINE PERSONS
We need to re-estudy our conceptions about the person of Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth, mentioned in John 14:v.16 and 26, and I hope he helps to all to know him better, because he is not the own JESUS in His return as some think, no, absolutely no. In fact, he is the third among the three. DETAIL: He is the LESSER among the three.
Many many time ago (18th century),"Mr. Porson asked; “Why is the epithet [holy,]” after being twice omitted, added [to Spirit] in the seventh verse?"
Beza says, “In order to distinguish one Spirit from the other, ut ab eo distinguatur cujus fit mentio in sequenti versu." Perhaps, too, because when the Three Divine Persons are connumerated in the same passage, as in Matth. xxviii. 19, 2 Cor. xiii. 13, the epithet was usually added. It may also be asked, why, in the original, the expression of unity in the two verses differs, one from the other, both doctrinally and grammatically? The reason appears to be, because in one the unity is ESSENTIAL and real; ;in the other, ADVENTITiOUS and APPARENT only and because the eighth verse is dependent on the seventh,
as a RELATIVE is on its antecedent.
The above comments of Mr. Porson and Beza are very interesting, the writers try, among doubts, to understand the deep mysteries of Three Distinct Divine Persons, and even they progress to a certain point in their vision, without however reaching the main goal: Identify who is the character to which it was added the epithet [holy,]. In fact, this is very profound and is not easy to penetrate in this wonderful heavenly environment although OUR PRIVILEGE to be "living or dwelling" spiritually even in heaven through / by the Word of GOD -the Word is GOD - or in heavenly place in Christ as is revealed in Ephesians 1:v.3-7, among others, as below:
3 Blessed be the GOD and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself (Hallelujaaah), according to the good pleasure of His will,
6 To the praise of the glory of His grace, wherein He hath made us accepted in the beloved.-JESUS-. (Songs of Solomon chap. 2;5;6;8 as a reference).
Would not the person of the Holy Spirit be the LAWFUL / LEGITIMATE younger brother of JESUS?->Luke 15:v.32. Maybe EQUALLY to ALL READERS of this present post being brothers of JESUS by adoption? By the way, this was/is one of JESUS's main objetive - John 17:v.20-21. Check it.
IS NOT THE PERSON OF HOLY SPIRIT THE LAWFUL / LEGITIMATE YOUNGER BROTHER OF JESUS? LUKE 15:v.32 | Pure Bible Forum (and see www.sinaiticus.net )
That Jehovah created us with free will is expressed all through Scripture. What you quote from Romans 3 is drawn from Psalms 14:1-3. The reason no one was seeking after God was that there was no one who chose to do so.
Deut 30:19, 20
“I take the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you today that I have put life and death before you, the blessing and the curse and you must choose life so that you may live, you and your descendants, by loving Jehovah your God, by listening to his voice, and by sticking to him, for he is your life and by him you will endure a long time in the land that Jehovah swore to give to your forefathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.”
Joshua 24:15
“Now if it seems bad to you to serve Jehovah, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve, whether the gods that your forefathers served on the other side of the River or the gods of the Amʹor·ites in whose land you are dwelling. But as for me and my household, we will serve Jehovah.”
Genesis 2:v.16-17
16 And the Lord God COMANDED the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it:
Genesis 3:v.11 -
And GOD said, Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
Is there free will in these words of our God? Will it be?
Adam, was created in the image and likeness of GOD.
And the murderous and fratricidal Cain? was created in the image of who?
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Rich R
Well-Known Member
Rich R
Well-Known Member
Why the rebuke? Apparently, according to you and Calvin, I had no choice in what I said. You can't possibly change my mind. I'm just destined to failure I guess. Yikes! What a sad doctrine. But, I don't hold to it, so I'm not worried.
Rich R
Well-Known Member
Deut 30:19,
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
That word "choose" is the Hebrew word "bachar." It's used 163 other times in the OT. Just saying.
Of course. We have the ability to choose whether or not to obey his commands. That is obvious because most people choose not to.
Rich R
Well-Known Member
I wonder if Calvin was just playing a big joke on everybody when he came up with his off the wall ideas. That would seem more plausible than him actually believing what he said.
If we don't have choice, why would God have bothered to have given us the scriptures? If Calvin was right, It's not like we'd have a choice in believing them or not. Crazy, crazy, crazy!
When looking at all Scripture passages above we will notice that there is a common word denominator "choose." People bring out these and other similar verses to signify that they can choose for God.
After God finished creation, He gave a command to our first parents in Genesis 2:16-17 saying, "Of every tree in the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
And God saw that everything He created was very good. Then the command came and the rest is history.
Adam and Eve were given the breath of life and also spiritual life, that is they can live for ever, when they were created. Did they die that day they disobeyed God? No! Did God lie? Of course not but they did die that day when they disobeyed God! What had to have happened? Well, God took away their breath of life that spiritual soul that lives for ever. And Adam died 930 years later after his disobedience.
Adam and Eve were the progenitors of the human race, their sins were imputed to their descendants, that is to all mankind by inference.
Since mankind inherited, so to speak, the sins of their parents, they too lost their "free will" and their ability to "choose" spiritual things.
God knows the end from the beginning and rightly elected some to salvation in eternity past before the foundation of the world and made them also be "born again" from their parents' iniquity.
After laying down the above explanations, does anyone still feel they have "free will" to choose for God?
To God Be The Glory
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Johann
Well-Known Member
You seem to understand the doctrine of election and that is not going to make you very popular
Johann
Well-Known Member
tigger 2
Well-Known Member
............................................
1 John 5:7
The King James Version (A. D. 1611) says at 1 Jn 5:7: “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.”
Of course even this would not mean the three are the one God as trinitarians want. The word for “one” here is in the neuter form, hen, which cannot mean “one God” since “God” is always in the masculine form in NT Greek, and grammatically adjectives (such as “one”) applied to it must also be masculine (heis ‘one,’ masculine form).
NT Greek words meaning “one”: ἓν εἷς μmια
- hen (ἓν as written in Greek letters) is the neuter form for “one.”
- heis (εἷς as written in Greek letters) is the masculine form for “one.”
- mia (mια as written in Greek letters) is the feminine form for “one.”
When the neuter “one” (hen) is applied to persons, it means “one thing.” In other words they have become united in some thing such as “purpose,” “will,” etc. That is why Jesus prays to the Father “that they [Jesus’ followers] may be one [hen, ἕν - neuter] just as we are one [hen, ἕν - neuter].” - Jn 17:22. Jesus, the Father, and Jesus’ followers are all one [hen, neuter] in something. Of course they are all united in the Father’s will and purpose! - see the ONE study.
Even though Christians have one will with Jesus and the Father, it certainly is not their wills which dominate; it is the will of the Father which they make their will also. And Jesus, too, subordinates his will to that of the Father so that, therefore, their will and purpose become one: the Father’s alone. (“Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.” - Luke 22:42, NIV. cf. Mark 14:36.)
There is no way that Jesus would pray at Jn 17:22 that Christians may be one “just as we (Jesus and the Father) are one” if he were truly God. In that case he would be praying that these Christians become “equally God” with him and the Father!
But even more important is the fact that John did not write the words found at 1 Jn 5:7 in the KJV! And we must consider why trinitarian scholars and copyists felt compelled to add it to the Holy Scriptures.
The only other Bibles which include this passage that I am aware of are the Catholic Douay Version (A. D. 1609), the New Life Version (1993), the New King James Version (1982), and the King James II Version (1982). These last two are modern translations which have as their stated purpose the preservation of the text and traditions of the King James Version and which, therefore, translate from the thoroughly discredited Received Text.
Of these four Bibles the KJIIV at least indicates the unscriptural addition of 1 John 5:7 by writing it in all italics. And buried in the Preface is the admission that 1 Jn 5:7 (among others) is not to be accepted as true Scripture.
The New Life Version, however, claims to put an asterisk (*) to mark words or passages which are “missing in some of the early writings.” And it does so in such passages as Mark 16:9-20 and John 8:1-11, but it does not do so at 1 Jn 5:7.
Since Greek was the “universal language” at the time the New Testament writers wrote and for many years thereafter, the earliest copies of the manuscripts of the New Testament were most often written in Koine Greek. Therefore the very best manuscripts (and the oldest) of New Testament writings in existence today are the most ancient (4th and 5th century) Greek manuscripts. These early Greek manuscripts were later translated into various other languages, including Latin. Although Bible translators often compare these ancient Greek manuscripts with NT manuscripts of other languages, they nearly always translate from a text that was composed from the oldest and best Greek manuscripts.
Respected trinitarian scholar, minister (Trinity Church), Professor (University of Glasgow and Marburg University), author (The Daily Study Bible Series, etc.), and Bible translator, Dr. William Barclay, states the following about this passage:
Note on 1 John 5:7
“In the Authorized Version [KJV] there is a verse which we have altogether omitted [in Barclay’s NT translation]. It reads, “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one.”
“The Revised Version omits this verse, and does not even mention it in the margin, and none of the newer translations includes it. It is quite certain that it does not belong to the original text.
“The facts are as follows. First, it does not occur in any Greek manuscript earlier than the 14th century. The great manuscripts belong to the 3rd and 4th centuries [most scholars date them to the 4th and 5th centuries], and it occurs in none of them. None of the great early fathers of the Church knew it. Jerome’s original version of the [Latin]Vulgate does not include it. The first person to quote it is a Spanish heretic called Priscillian who died in A. D. 385. Thereafter it crept gradually into the Latin texts of the New Testament although, as we have seen, it did not gain an entry to the Greek manuscripts.
“How then did it get into the text? Originally it must have been a scribal gloss or comment in the margin. Since it seemed to offer good scriptural evidence for the doctrine of the Trinity [and since there was no good scriptural evidence for this new doctrine introduced by the Roman church in 325 A. D.], through time it came to be accepted by theologians as part of the text, especially in those early days of scholarship before the great manuscripts were discovered. [More likely it was written in the margin of an existing manuscript with the intention that future trinitarian copyists actually add it to all new copies.]
“But how did it last, and how did it come to be in the Authorized [King James] Version? The first Greek testament to be published was that of Erasmus in 1516. Erasmus was a great scholar and, knowing that this verse was not in the original text, he did not include it in his first edition. By this time, however, theologians [trinitarians, of course] were using the verse. It had, for instance, been printed in the Latin Vulgate of 1514. Erasmus was therefore criticized for omitting it. His answer was that if anyone could show him a Greek manuscript which had the words in it, he would print them in his next edition. Someone did produce a very late and very bad text in which the verse did occur in Greek; and Erasmus, true to his word but very much against his judgment and his will, printed the verse in his 1522 edition.
“The next step was that in 1550 Stephanus printed his great edition of the Greek New Testament. This 1550 edition of Stephanus was called - he gave it that name himself - The Received Text, and it was the basis of the Authorized Version [KJV] and of the Greek text for centuries to come. That is how this verse got into the Authorized Version. There is, of course, nothing wrong with it [if the trinity were really true as trinitarians like Barclay himself want!]; but modern scholarship has made it quite certain that John did not write it and that it is a much later commentary on, and addition to, his words; and that is why all modern translations omit it.” - pp. 110-111, The Letters of John and Jude, The Daily Study Bible Series, Revised Edition, The Westminster Press, 1976. [Material in brackets and emphasis added by me.]
(TBC)
tigger 2
Well-Known Member
1 John 5:7 KJV continued
Trinitarian scholar Robert Young [Young’s Analytical Concordance of the Bible; Young’s Literal Translation of the Bible; etc.] writes in his Concise Critical Commentary:
“These words are wanting [lacking] in all the Greek MSS except two, in all the oldest Ancient Versions, and in all the quotations of v. 6-8 in the ancient Fathers before A.D. 475” - Note for 1 John 5:7, Baker Book House, 1977.
Noted Lutheran scholar and Bible translator, William F. Beck (trinitarian, of course) states in a footnote for 1 John 5:7 in his The New Testament in the Language of Today, 1964 printing:
“Our oldest manuscripts do not have vv. 7b-8a: “in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. And there are three testifying on earth.” Early in the 16th century an editor translated these words from Latin manuscripts and inserted them in his Greek New Testament. Erasmus took them from this Greek New Testament and inserted them in the third edition (1522) of his Greek New Testament. Luther used the text prepared by Erasmus. But even though the inserted words taught the Trinity, Luther ruled them out and never had them in his translation. In 1550 Bugenhagen objected to these words “on account of the truth.” In 1574 [about 30 years after Luther’s death] Feyerabend, a printer, added them to Luther’s text, and in 1596 [in spite of the fact that scholars knew it was spurious] they appeared in the Wittenberg copies. They were not in Tyndale’s or Coverdale’s Bible or in the Great Bible [which were used by the KJV translators, and often copied nearly verbatim in many places by them].”
The following modern trinitarian Bibles do not include the spurious words found in the KJV at 1 Jn 5:7: Revised Standard Version; New Revised Standard Version; American Standard Version; New International Version; New American Standard Bible; Living Bible; Good News Bible; New English Bible; Revised English Bible; New American Bible (1970 and 1991 editions); Jerusalem Bible; New Jerusalem Bible; Modern Language Bible; Holy Bible: Easy-to-Read Version; An American Translation (Smith-Goodspeed); and translations by Moffatt; C. B. Williams; William Beck; Phillips; Rotherham; Lamsa; Byington; Barclay; etc.
And respected (and highly trinitarian) New Testament Bible scholar Dr. A. T. Robertson writes:
“For there are three who bear witness (hoti treis eisin hoi marturountes). At this point the Latin Vulgate gives the words in the Textus Receptus [Received Text], found in no Greek MS. [Manuscript] save two late cursives (162 in the Vatican Library of the fifteenth century, 34 of the sixteenth century in Trinity College, Dublin). Jerome [famed trinitarian, 342-420 A. D.] did not have it. Cyprian applies the language of the Trinity [ ? - - see UBS Commentary below] and Priscillian [excommunicated 380 A. D., executed 385 A. D.] has it. Erasmus did not have it in his first edition, but rashly offered to insert it if a single Greek MS. had it and [ms.] 34 was produced with the insertion, as if made to order. The spurious addition is: en toi ouranoi ho pater, ho logos kai to hagion pneuma kai houtoi hoi treis hen eisin kai treis eisin hoi marturountes en tei gei (in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost; and the three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth). The last clause belongs to verse 8. The fact and the doctrine of the Trinity do not depend on this spurious addition.” - p. 240, Vol. VI, Word Pictures in the New Testament, Broadman Press, 1960.
WHY did trinitarian copyists and scholars think it necessary to construct this “scripture” and actually add it to the Holy Scriptures? What, then, does this tell us about the evaluation of the rest of the “evidence” for a trinity by these very same trinitarians? Isn’t this most terrible, blasphemous action by them actually an admission that the rest of the “evidence” for a 3-in-one God is completely inadequate? Why else would they do such a desperate, terrible thing?
WHAT does this tell us about those men who first constructed the “trinity doctrine” and forced it on an unwilling Roman Church in 325 A. D. at the Nicene Council? (See HIST and CREEDS studies .)
WHY do so many trinitarians feel it necessary to “preserve” this clearly dishonest King James Version tradition in not only the most-used King James Version itself (which has been revised many times with thousands of changes in its 400-year history while still leaving this spurious verse), but even in at least three modern translations (NKJV, KJIIV, NLV)?
Trinitarian scholar Robert Young [Young’s Analytical Concordance of the Bible; Young’s Literal Translation of the Bible; etc.] writes in his Concise Critical Commentary:
“These words are wanting [lacking] in all the Greek MSS except two, in all the oldest Ancient Versions, and in all the quotations of v. 6-8 in the ancient Fathers before A.D. 475” - Note for 1 John 5:7, Baker Book House, 1977.
Noted Lutheran scholar and Bible translator, William F. Beck (trinitarian, of course) states in a footnote for 1 John 5:7 in his The New Testament in the Language of Today, 1964 printing:
“Our oldest manuscripts do not have vv. 7b-8a: “in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. And there are three testifying on earth.” Early in the 16th century an editor translated these words from Latin manuscripts and inserted them in his Greek New Testament. Erasmus took them from this Greek New Testament and inserted them in the third edition (1522) of his Greek New Testament. Luther used the text prepared by Erasmus. But even though the inserted words taught the Trinity, Luther ruled them out and never had them in his translation. In 1550 Bugenhagen objected to these words “on account of the truth.” In 1574 [about 30 years after Luther’s death] Feyerabend, a printer, added them to Luther’s text, and in 1596 [in spite of the fact that scholars knew it was spurious] they appeared in the Wittenberg copies. They were not in Tyndale’s or Coverdale’s Bible or in the Great Bible [which were used by the KJV translators, and often copied nearly verbatim in many places by them].”
The following modern trinitarian Bibles do not include the spurious words found in the KJV at 1 Jn 5:7: Revised Standard Version; New Revised Standard Version; American Standard Version; New International Version; New American Standard Bible; Living Bible; Good News Bible; New English Bible; Revised English Bible; New American Bible (1970 and 1991 editions); Jerusalem Bible; New Jerusalem Bible; Modern Language Bible; Holy Bible: Easy-to-Read Version; An American Translation (Smith-Goodspeed); and translations by Moffatt; C. B. Williams; William Beck; Phillips; Rotherham; Lamsa; Byington; Barclay; etc.
And respected (and highly trinitarian) New Testament Bible scholar Dr. A. T. Robertson writes:
“For there are three who bear witness (hoti treis eisin hoi marturountes). At this point the Latin Vulgate gives the words in the Textus Receptus [Received Text], found in no Greek MS. [Manuscript] save two late cursives (162 in the Vatican Library of the fifteenth century, 34 of the sixteenth century in Trinity College, Dublin). Jerome [famed trinitarian, 342-420 A. D.] did not have it. Cyprian applies the language of the Trinity [ ? - - see UBS Commentary below] and Priscillian [excommunicated 380 A. D., executed 385 A. D.] has it. Erasmus did not have it in his first edition, but rashly offered to insert it if a single Greek MS. had it and [ms.] 34 was produced with the insertion, as if made to order. The spurious addition is: en toi ouranoi ho pater, ho logos kai to hagion pneuma kai houtoi hoi treis hen eisin kai treis eisin hoi marturountes en tei gei (in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost; and the three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth). The last clause belongs to verse 8. The fact and the doctrine of the Trinity do not depend on this spurious addition.” - p. 240, Vol. VI, Word Pictures in the New Testament, Broadman Press, 1960.
WHY did trinitarian copyists and scholars think it necessary to construct this “scripture” and actually add it to the Holy Scriptures? What, then, does this tell us about the evaluation of the rest of the “evidence” for a trinity by these very same trinitarians? Isn’t this most terrible, blasphemous action by them actually an admission that the rest of the “evidence” for a 3-in-one God is completely inadequate? Why else would they do such a desperate, terrible thing?
WHAT does this tell us about those men who first constructed the “trinity doctrine” and forced it on an unwilling Roman Church in 325 A. D. at the Nicene Council? (See HIST and CREEDS studies .)
WHY do so many trinitarians feel it necessary to “preserve” this clearly dishonest King James Version tradition in not only the most-used King James Version itself (which has been revised many times with thousands of changes in its 400-year history while still leaving this spurious verse), but even in at least three modern translations (NKJV, KJIIV, NLV)?
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Knowing God as Triune requires supernatural faith.
The Incarnation and the virgin birth both require supernatural faith.
That's why Mary couldn't tell Joseph the truth. He could never believe it coming from her. Heaven had to reveal it to him for him to believe it.
Jesus taught that one must be drawn to Him by the Father. That's something He lived from His infancy.
In order for God to reveal Himself more fully He was born of a Virgin. A radically supernatural event that no earthly source could reveal.
Unless revealed by heaven one cannot believe that God came in the flesh and dwelled among men. The knowledge of the Trinity follows faith in the divinity of Jesus.
Truth heaven must reveal to be believed.
The Incarnation and the virgin birth both require supernatural faith.
That's why Mary couldn't tell Joseph the truth. He could never believe it coming from her. Heaven had to reveal it to him for him to believe it.
Jesus taught that one must be drawn to Him by the Father. That's something He lived from His infancy.
In order for God to reveal Himself more fully He was born of a Virgin. A radically supernatural event that no earthly source could reveal.
Unless revealed by heaven one cannot believe that God came in the flesh and dwelled among men. The knowledge of the Trinity follows faith in the divinity of Jesus.
Truth heaven must reveal to be believed.
Indeed, what a sad doctrine to not get worried even when the "gates of hell" is upon every soul that is going to live throughout time. Unless of course God intervenes in the lives of those souls He wants to bring to heaven.
Why do you keep mentioning Calvin when I don't but maybe occasionally, or when someone associates him with me. If Calvin and me agree on some spiritual things that means we read the same Bible and agree on its' context.
I was not rebuking you but rather the opposite is true that is to bring the true Gospel. If you want to close your eyes to truth then you are the only one to blame. Just don't put a fist towards heaven and say, "I'm going to hell because you didn't choose me."
We go to hell BECAUSE we are sinners and need a Savior. If Jesus is NOT God then we will go to hell anyways because only God can forgive sins.
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Stop bringing in the trinitarian scholars or any other scholars for their works are NOT INSPIRED!!!
To God Be The Glory
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