Shinar - West of Mount Ararat according to Genesis

[Tsigano]

Genesis 11
[sup]1[/sup]And the whole earth is of one pronunciation, and of the same words,

[sup]2[/sup]and it cometh to pass, in their journeying from the east, that they find a valley in the land of Shinar, and dwell there;




Now, I am aware that some "translations" of the Bible have wrongfully changed this to be "to the the east" but in the correct and true Bible as written in Hebrew it clearly say "from the East"




I find this confusing as many including many Jews believe Babel, which is in Shinar, to be the land of Babylon and in fact say Babyl(on) comes from Babel.

Babylon is not however to the west of Ararat which is where the sons of Noah originated from after the flood.




Any ideas.




I have two ideas

1. Shinar is therefore not in Babylon as some scholars lay claim but is in fact in either Turkey or possibly Syria and maybe the word "Asia" which was once a word for parts of Turkey is related to the word Shinar. Babylon and Babel are just coincidentally just close sounding or maybe have a similar root but are two completely different places.



2. Pole shift. I have once seen a scientific case arguing that the north pole used to be in the North America and moved to where it is now. As mad as it sounds I am so certain in the words of the Bible that I believe the world would have to change rather than the words are wrong in any way (which they certainly aren't as the Holy Spirit reveals the strength and reality of God, so God having the Jews keep the Masoretic text pure is of no problem for Him. I feel very certain of this. It is only translations that fall to man's corruptions).

 

[aspen]

Shinar could be anywhere......sounds like speculation to me.

 

[granpa]

if you really want to study biblical geography
then you are going to have to roll up your sleeves and dig in and study the whole thing.

you arent going to find the answers in a couple of verses.

 

[veteran]

Gen 10:9-11
9 He was a mighty hunter before the LORD: wherefore it is said, Even as Nimrod the mighty hunter before the LORD.
10 And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel, and Erech, and Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar.
11 Out of that land went forth Asshur, and builded Nineveh, and the city Rehoboth, and Calah,
(KJV)

Keep reading in Gen.11...

Gen 11:1-4
1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.
2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.
3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them throughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter.
4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
(KJV)

No reason to suspect that Noah and his family were involved in that, just because of the last verse of Gen.10. Because Genesis 10 mentions other cities and other areas than Babel, that must be taken into account when reading this Gen.11 Scripture, which is a 'detail' about the kingdom of Babel specifically.

 

[Tsigano]

No reason to suspect that Noah and his family were involved in that,

No one said they were. The verse say that after the flood men / people journeyed west. If they were from Noah as all modern mankind is then it is obvious that they journeyed from the resting place of the ark.

This verse is important as man has even tried to change the wording within the Bible to suit their own theories. How can man change the words of God as carefully passed down to us through His chosen.

 

[veteran]

No one said they were. The verse say that after the flood men / people journeyed west. If they were from Noah as all modern mankind is then it is obvious that they journeyed from the resting place of the ark.

This verse is important as man has even tried to change the wording within the Bible to suit their own theories. How can man change the words of God as carefully passed down to us through His chosen.

Like I said, all the peoples and nations AFTER the flood mentioned in Gen.10 must be taken into account when reading the Gen.11 Scripture...

Gen 10:18-19
18 And the Arvadite, and the Zemarite, and the Hamathite: and afterward were the families of the Canaanites spread abroad.
19 And the border of the Canaanites was from Sidon, as thou comest to Gerar, unto Gaza; as thou goest, unto Sodom, and Gomorrah, and Admah, and Zeboim, even unto Lasha.
(KJV)


Gen 10:30-32
30 And their dwelling was from Mesha, as thou goest unto Sephar a mount of the east.
31 These are the sons of Shem, after their families, after their tongues, in their lands, after their nations.
32 These are the families of the sons of Noah, after their generations, in their nations: and by these were the nations divided in the earth after the flood.
(KJV)

Does that mean to think of Noah and his sons as just getting off the ark? Of course not. It's about nations and peoples already divided in the earth after the flood. Use common sense.

 

[Tsigano]

Like I said, all the peoples and nations AFTER the flood mentioned in Gen.10 must be taken into account when reading the Gen.11 Scripture...

Gen 10:18-19
18 And the Arvadite, and the Zemarite, and the Hamathite: and afterward were the families of the Canaanites spread abroad.
19 And the border of the Canaanites was from Sidon, as thou comest to Gerar, unto Gaza; as thou goest, unto Sodom, and Gomorrah, and Admah, and Zeboim, even unto Lasha.
(KJV)


Gen 10:30-32
30 And their dwelling was from Mesha, as thou goest unto Sephar a mount of the east.
31 These are the sons of Shem, after their families, after their tongues, in their lands, after their nations.
32 These are the families of the sons of Noah, after their generations, in their nations: and by these were the nations divided in the earth after the flood.
(KJV)

Does that mean to think of Noah and his sons as just getting off the ark? Of course not. It's about nations and peoples already divided in the earth after the flood. Use common sense.

So then why would it say

"1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.
2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there."?

You are making no sense to me.


If it was speaking about some random people then why would it even mention that they journeyed from the east. The Bible puts wording in only if it has a relevance. That is the beauty of the Word as it often reveals things unknown.

 

[veteran]

So then why would it say

"1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.
2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there."?

You are making no sense to me.


If it was speaking about some random people then why would it even mention that they journeyed from the east. The Bible puts wording in only if it has a relevance. That is the beauty of the Word as it often reveals things unknown.

For the location of the area of ancient Babel (Babylon, in today's Iraq), it is southeast of Turkey from where Mt. Ararat is (research some maps). The land of Canaan is even farther... south. That's my point. Gen.10 shows even nations already established in lands way south of where the tower of Babel was.

 

[Tsigano]

For the location of the area of ancient Babel (Babylon, in today's Iraq), it is southeast of Turkey from where Mt. Ararat is (research some maps). The land of Canaan is even farther... south. That's my point. Gen.10 shows even nations already established in lands way south of where the tower of Babel was.

But to be east of Babylon they would have to have been in South Asia. Somewhere like Elam (Iran / Persia) or India.

 

[granpa]

if you want to know where babel was at then you need to trace back the migration routes of the sons of shem in the table of nations.

 

[Tsigano]

if you want to know where babel was at then you need to trace back the migration routes of the sons of shem in the table of nations.

Why Shem? It was Nimrod who built his kingdom in Babel (and then went onto Assyria).

The Verse says "the whole Earth"......."They journeyed from the east".
That makes me think the whole earth journeyed to the land of Shinar.
I would take this to be that they split from each other in Shinar rather than up high in a cold mountain. Did Noah not plant a vine yard? Would this not be somewhere warmer?

I'm sure as man began doing evil and people like Nimrod started being in control, many more righteous would have moved away. We also know that the nations were split during the time of Peleg and not during the time when they left the ark.

 

[veteran]

But to be east of Babylon they would have to have been in South Asia. Somewhere like Elam (Iran / Persia) or India.

The point is Gen.11 doesn't have to mean Noah and his immediate family traveling from Turkey (Mt. Ararat) to the land of Shinar. That appears to be a requirement you're putting on the Scripture.

Back in Gen.10 we're shown nations all over the place already established, including way south of Babylon like the land of Canaan. Elam, Madai, Arphaxad, were all east of Babylon, and already existed.

Gen 10:15-19
15 And Canaan begat Sidon his firstborn, and Heth,
16 And the Jebusite, and the Amorite, and the Girgasite,
17 And the Hivite, and the Arkite, and the Sinite,
18 And the Arvadite, and the Zemarite, and the Hamathite: and afterward were the families of the Canaanites spread abroad.
19 And the border of the Canaanites was from Sidon, as thou comest to Gerar, unto Gaza; as thou goest, unto Sodom, and Gomorrah, and Admah, and Zeboim, even unto Lasha.
(KJV)

There's the people of the land of Canaan established already in the land around Jerusalem (then called Jebus), before the tower of Babel event. And they were there also after... the tower of Babel event.