Is same sex attraction lust driven?

[The Disciple John]

Hi there,

Looking at Romans 1, I am reading that the factor that births same sex attraction is lust.

Here is the passage...

Unbelief and Its Consequences
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.

28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; 32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

OK so this issue is at the heart of the conversion therapy laws because the law forbids prayer and ministry aimed at seeing a change in sexual 'orientation' which Romans seems to say is lust driven.

If this is correct, then the claim that it is something born with, does not hold.

But the Bill hinges on this same sex 'orientation' being immutable and therefore a no-go area for ministry, prayer and deliverance.

I believe in a healthy hetro-sexual relationship, lust is not and shouldn't be the driver.

Comments most welcome.

I think Revelation 12:9, 12 provides us with the answer.

 

[The Disciple John]

Regardless of exactly how, it's all because of the fall. We know that much.

I have debated as to whether to share some of my own experience or not. But I think that my testimony can help some who struggle to understand their own issues. And it can help those who don't have these struggles to at least understand some of how this can happen to a child.

As you know, I was born into an extreme form of abuse called SRA (satanic ritual abuse) and also MK Ultra (governmental trauma based mind control). As that was the case, I was traumatized in every way imaginable. And (please bear with me) ...from at least age 2 to 3, I began being trained in how to please men in various sexual ways. This was part of something called "beta/kitten programming."

I had parts of myself that were used in sexual ways by men. But there was also sexual abuse from women (although not predominantly by women). In my regular daily life, you would have seen me as a quiet, even shy person. It was extreme at times to the point that people would ask if I could talk. I was very very cautious of people. Then, at other times, I was normal, talkative, etc.

But if anyone approached me, I backed up a bit to keep my personal space. I was very guarded. On a conscious level, I didn't know why. But if someone approached me and came into my space, my body would feel ...like it was gearing up for violation, or for some sexual encounter. So I kept my space very guarded if at all possible.

Then, when I came to Christ at age 13, some things changed. I was head over heels in love with Jesus. I knew He loved me and I immersed myself in the Word (KJV), prayer, and Christian (southern gospel) music. Hatred was replaced with love. Many of my struggles just faded away or disappeared instantly. And yet, when I was in a church, I experienced very invasive flashbacks of traumas that happened in rituals (inside "christian" churches), including rapes.

There was one woman I came to trust. She prayed with me a lot. And I spent a lot of time in her home. I allowed my walls to come down a good bit. But there were times that (as a 14 yr old) when she would approach me, my body would automatically gear up and respond sexually ...and it horrified me! I knew that wasn't my desire, so why was my body betraying me?! I was grounded enough in the Lord, that I held onto Him and trusted He would take care of it.

Years later, when I began walking through healing of my past trauma, the Lord taught my heart why I struggled in that way. There is something called "body memories." And some have termed it, "the body remembers." Memory is stored in all the body, not just the brain. My mind and body were trained to interpret physical closeness in a sexual way. As a way to cope with extreme physical and sexual trauma, a child will adapt. A mental process happens ... "I can't stop this, so I will have to survive it." Her mind may even create a separate part who goes along with what is happening, or parts who "enjoy" it (pleasure+pain) ...because that is survival.

So I understood that my body responded sexually... not because it was "how I was" ....but because my body was trained to expect sexual abuse/experiences anytime my personal space was invaded. With a revelation of truth and understanding comes opportunity to heal and overcome.

That was long-winded, and idk if it helps or not. But that is my experience and others who have experienced even just "regular" abuse may be able to relate in ways. That is my hopes.

Thanks for sharing.
I heard about these things, and I am sorry you were a victim. So many children suffer - even in their own home.
Glad to hear you trust in God, rather than blame him.
Our forefather Adam shares the blame with Satan, but thanks to God, for making a way out, and revealing his love.

What you mentioned about the body remembering, is called the subconscious.
It's the conscious part of us that does not sleep, and remembers everything - even the things we want to forget. It also "see" things we are not consciously seeing. It's the part of us that makes our responses automatic.

 

[TLHKAJ]

Thanks for sharing.
I heard about these things, and I am sorry you were a victim. So many children suffer - even in their own home.
Glad to hear you trust in God, rather than blame him.
Our forefather Adam shares the blame with Satan, but thanks to God, for making a way out, and revealing his love.

Thank you. God is good, and merciful. I began to hear His voice calling me and speaking to me from age 10. I surrendered to Him at age 13, and yet my abuse/trauma didn't end. For me, trauma has been lifelong. I still live under threat. Freedom is first within the mind/soul, heart, and spirit... regardless of what our circumstances are.

What you mentioned about the body remembering, is called the subconscious.
It's the conscious part of us that does not sleep, and remembers everything - even the things we want to forget. It also "see" things we are not consciously seeing. It's the part of us that makes our responses automatic.

Well, yes and no. The subconscious records everything. And yet, the cells of our physical bodies store and carry memories as well. This is why a transplant patient will often begin to experience changes in their food preferences and interests, as well as having invasive "memory" flashes of how their donor died or "memories" other aspects of their donor's life.

Mengele (a father of MK Ultra) had great interest in experimenting on identical twins, triplets, etc because they come from the same fertilized egg and they often report feeling what the other feels to various degrees. (Maybe @amigo de christo can share his experience.) Likewise, they have perfected human cloning. And those who are a clone have reported experiencing things similar to that of an organ donor ....memories of the person they were cloned from, having the same tastes, interests, and preferences, etc. But since only the body is cloned (not the mind, soul, and spirit), a clone (being fully human, btw) is able to develop their own personality and veer from the preferences of the person they were cloned from.

This is based on a true story (although they don't state it in the movie).

I may copy these posts to my SRA/MK thread so as not to derail this one too much.

 

[JohnPaul]

Thank you. God is good, and merciful. I began to hear His voice calling me and speaking to me from age 10. I surrendered to Him at age 13, and yet my abuse/trauma didn't end. For me, trauma has been lifelong. I still live under threat. Freedom is first within the mind/soul, heart, and spirit... regardless of what our circumstances are.


Well, yes and no. The subconscious records everything. And yet, the cells of our physical bodies store and carry memories as well. This is why a transplant patient will often begin to experience changes in their food preferences and interests, as well as having invasive "memory" flashes of how their donor died or "memories" other aspects of their donor's life.

Mengele (a father of MK Ultra) had great interest in experimenting on identical twins, triplets, etc because they come from the same fertilized egg and they often report feeling what the other feels to various degrees. (Maybe @amigo de christo can share his experience.) Likewise, they have perfected human cloning. And those who are a clone have reported experiencing things similar to that of an organ donor ....memories of the person they were cloned from, having the same tastes, interests, and preferences, etc. But since only the body is cloned (not the mind, soul, and spirit), a clone (being fully human, btw) is able to develop their own personality and veer from the preferences of the person they were cloned from.

This is based on a true story (although they don't state it in the movie).

I may copy these posts to my SRA/MK thread so as not to derail this one too much.

So the Third Reich was involved in MK Ultra, the Angel of Death?

 

[TLHKAJ]

So the Third Reich was involved in MK Ultra, the Angel of Death?

Absolutely ....100%. When the war ended, the US brought Mengele and other nazi doctors to the US to take part in and further the MK Ultra projects. Our government, CIA, etc .....fully 100% complicit. And these nazi doctors were very valuable.

 

[JohnPaul]

Absolutely ....100%. When the war ended, the US brought Mengele and other nazi doctors to the US to take part in and further the MK Ultra projects. Our government, CIA, etc .....fully 100% complicit. And these nazi doctors were very valuable.

I thought Doctor Mengele escaped to Brazil with his other Nazi cohorts?

 

[TLHKAJ]

I thought Doctor Mengele escaped to Brazil with his other Nazi cohorts?

Yes, but ....he also was brought into the US, and I think Canada also. Many survivors of MK were programmed by Mengele. I should transfer these posts to my thread.

 

[JohnPaul]

Yes, but ....he also was brought into the US, and I think Canada also. Many survivors of MK were programmed by Mengele. I should transfer these posts to my thread.

His body washed up on the Brazilian coast he had a heart attack while swimming, you can look it up.

 

[GEN2REV]

Absolutely ....100%. When the war ended, the US brought Mengele and other nazi doctors to the US to take part in and further the MK Ultra projects. Our government, CIA, etc .....fully 100% complicit. And these nazi doctors were very valuable.

Operation Paperclip

 

[JohnPaul]

Operation Paperclip

Von Braun

 

[TLHKAJ]

His body washed up on the Brazilian coast he had a heart attack while swimming, you can look it up.

It's okay. Maybe you don't realize the government controls the media and they are very invested in protecting their evil deeds from being exposed.

 

[TLHKAJ]

Von Braun

Yes, under the "NASA" front. Some if my programming involved NASA.

 

[TLHKAJ]

Operation Paperclip

Yes!

 

[GEN2REV]

Von Braun

Yep. Wernher was among them.

 

[GEN2REV]

Yes, under the "NASA" front. Some of my programming involved NASA.

Yes, much of the programming of all the rest of us as well.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I think I need to explain the logic of why I started the thread...

I have had a very long debate on CF abut why I oppose the 'Conversion Therapy' Law.

The Law criminalises anyone praying into the area of same sex attraction because the LGBT folks have convinced the world that 'orientation' is something that you are born with and cant be 'cured'.

So my reading of Romans 1 (assuming it applies to the world today) shows that the driver for same sex attraction is lust.

That means that Christian ministers or lay folks can no longer pray into that area of an individuals life even if consent is given.

So for them, in that area, deliverance is banned, prayer is banned and so forth.

Some churches have embraced this move and supported the process.

Now I don't think we are born with lust.

So the claim that we cant minister into the driver behind the condition is flawed.

But the LGBT community canvassed for 'evidence' concerning harm from getting prayer about their condition.

Thousands of complaints came in whereas in NZ there had not been a case of conversion therapy in 10 years.

The bill passed.

My conclusion then is that folks are not only captive to lust but it is now illegal to free them.

I provided many examples of Christians freed wonderfully from same sex attraction and this was pretty much ignored.

 

[TLHKAJ]

I think I need to explain the logic of why I started the thread...

I have had a very long debate on CF abut why I oppose the 'Conversion Therapy' Law.

The Law criminalises anyone praying into the area of same sex attraction because the LGBT folks have convinced the world that 'orientation' is something that you are born with and cant be 'cured'.

So my reading of Romans 1 (assuming it applies to the world today) shows that the driver for same sex attraction is lust.

That means that Christian ministers or lay folks can no longer pray into that area of an individuals life even if consent is given.

So for them, in that area, deliverance is banned, prayer is banned and so forth.

Some churches have embraced this move and supported the process.

Now I don't think we are born with lust.

So the claim that we cant minister into the driver behind the condition is flawed.

But the LGBT community canvassed for 'evidence' concerning harm from getting prayer about their condition.

Thousands of complaints came in whereas in NZ there had not been a case of conversion therapy in 10 years.

The bill passed.

My conclusion then is that folks are not only captive to lust but it is now illegal to free them.

I provided many examples of Christians freed wonderfully from same sex attraction and this was pretty much ignored.

Many testimonies are out there on how people have come to freedom. God works in different ways with different people, depending on their specific issues. I do believe that sin can change the DNA, and the sins of the fathers can be passed on to their children in certain tendencies that are spiritual, and also learned/taught ...and also "genetic" tendencies. It's hard to sort, but God knows each one and what they need to gain freedom.

 

[GEN2REV]

I think I need to explain the logic of why I started the thread...

I have had a very long debate on CF abut why I oppose the 'Conversion Therapy' Law.

The Law criminalises anyone praying into the area of same sex attraction because the LGBT folks have convinced the world that 'orientation' is something that you are born with and cant be 'cured'.

So my reading of Romans 1 (assuming it applies to the world today) shows that the driver for same sex attraction is lust.

That means that Christian ministers or lay folks can no longer pray into that area of an individuals life even if consent is given.

So for them, in that area, deliverance is banned, prayer is banned and so forth.

Some churches have embraced this move and supported the process.

Now I don't think we are born with lust.

So the claim that we cant minister into the driver behind the condition is flawed.

But the LGBT community canvassed for 'evidence' concerning harm from getting prayer about their condition.

Thousands of complaints came in whereas in NZ there had not been a case of conversion therapy in 10 years.

The bill passed.

My conclusion then is that folks are not only captive to lust but it is now illegal to free them.

I provided many examples of Christians freed wonderfully from same sex attraction and this was pretty much ignored.

I believe it and it's lunacy.

Many were cured through psychology prior to the 60's or 70's. It was in the DSMIV manual as a legitimate mental illness/condition. Now it's been removed and being touted as a natural alternative condition of mankind.

Its spiritual significance as a demonic influence of lust is probably its most exposed root cause and that's why they are attacking that type of therapy/praying with all they've got.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Many were cured through psychology prior to the 60's or 70's.

Through behaviour modification?

I'm not sure that the root cause was dealt with...

 

[TLHKAJ]

I quoted some of these posts where I/we veered into MK Ultra and copied them to my thread so we can let this thread be what it is.
Understanding MPD/DID & SRA/MK