Let's discuss..cessation after death?

[Johann]

Many are uncomfortable with the topic re Hell and everlasting damnation.
Is total annihilation biblical?


Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.


1) "And In hell he lift up his eyes," (kai en to hade eparas tous ophthalmous autou) "And in the hades (place of torments, called hell) he lifted up his eyes," the holding place (abode) of the souls of the responsible unbelievers after death. It is a place of conscious torments, Luk_13:28; Rev_14:10-11.

2) "Being in torments," (huparchon en basanois) "Being or existing in torments," in mental, emotional, and spiritual state and place (location) of torments, with every sense-faculty of body and spirit that he had while living, to see, hear, taste, feel and to think, His final damnation was yet future, Rev_20:11; Rev_20:15.
Garner

There are scripture verses that do seem to imply cessation and there are others verses that don't

let us search the scriptures alone and not commentaries.

 

[The Disciple John]

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

When we search the scriptures alone, we do so with the mind that all scripture is inspired of God, and is therefore harmonious - that is, there should be agreement. I agree that the commentaries are what would conflict.
Since the dead do not know anything, and are not conscious in the grave where they go, it is not possible for the dead to be tormented where they go.

Jesus did say how he spoke to the people.
Matthew 13
10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”
11 He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.
12 For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him.
13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

He explained things to his disciples in private.
We know the account in Luke 16, is one of those parables, for this reason...
Luke 15
1 Then all the tax collectors and the sinners drew near to Him to hear Him.
2 And the Pharisees and scribes complained, saying, “This Man receives sinners and eats with them.”
3 So He spoke this parable to them, saying:

The Parable of the Lost Coin
8 “Or what woman, having ten silver coins...

The Parable of the Lost Son
11 Then He said: “A certain man had two sons...

Luke 16
The Parable of the Unjust Steward
1 He also said to His disciples: “There was a certain rich man who had a steward...

14 Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him.
15 And He said to them, “You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.

16 “The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it.
17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail.

18 “Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced from her husband commits adultery.

The Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus
19 “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and...

Jesus is here referring to two conditions, and he is still speaking in parables, addressing the Pharisees primarily.
The parable does not conflict with the state of the dead mentioned in Ecclesiastes.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Many are uncomfortable with the topic re Hell and everlasting damnation.
Is total annihilation biblical?


Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.


1) "And In hell he lift up his eyes," (kai en to hade eparas tous ophthalmous autou) "And in the hades (place of torments, called hell) he lifted up his eyes," the holding place (abode) of the souls of the responsible unbelievers after death. It is a place of conscious torments, Luk_13:28; Rev_14:10-11.

2) "Being in torments," (huparchon en basanois) "Being or existing in torments," in mental, emotional, and spiritual state and place (location) of torments, with every sense-faculty of body and spirit that he had while living, to see, hear, taste, feel and to think, His final damnation was yet future, Rev_20:11; Rev_20:15.
Garner

There are scripture verses that do seem to imply cessation and there are others verses that don't

let us search the scriptures alone and not commentaries.

Do you know what hell is Joe?

 

[Johann]

Do you know what hell is Joe?

No, and I don't want to go there, do you Robert?

 

[The Disciple John]

So, if I understand you correct, since there is no fear then after death but just being "comatized" for eternity I can live it up in this kosmou, eat, drink and be merry, no consequences..and die?

Is there any logic in what you have just posted?

And there are some that insinuate I have my marbles wrong? (no offense)

Recall, you said... "let us search the scriptures alone and not commentaries."
God told Adam... Genesis 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”'

That's what God said. That's what Adam got.
Genesis 3:17-19
17 Then to Adam He said, “Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat of it’:
“Cursed is the ground for your sake;
In toil you shall eat of it
All the days of your life.
18 Both thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you,
And you shall eat the herb of the field.
19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread
Till you return to the ground,
For out of it you were taken;
For dust you are,
And to dust you shall return.”

Humans are the one who want to torture. Not God. Jeremiah 7:31
Jonah wanted the Ninevites dead. God was merciful.

If anyone wants to "eat drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die", go ahead. What does that do to God? Adam died, and it is as stated in the scriptures... Ecclesiastes 3:20 All go to one place: all are from the dust, and all return to dust.

 

[Lambano]

I do not doubt that God will hold us accountable post-mortem for the moral decisions we made in this life. God is not mocked.

My understanding is that Hades/Sheol is not permanent. Death and Hades and those whose names are not in the Lamb's Book of Life will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:11-15). This is the second death, the final cessation of life.

God alone is immortal (1 Timothy 6:16); men are not and have no eternal life unless given by God. If Satan and the Beast and the False Prophet are eternal beings and will be tormented forever and ever (Revelation 20:10), I'll not waste any Sympathy for the Devil. ("Please allow me to introduce myself...")

I also trust that God is good; he is not a monster. If you want to believe he is, have at it. Credo in un deo crudel. You probably can't trust such a god to tell the truth or keep his promises anyway.

 

[Johann]

I also trust that God is good; he is not a monster. If you want to believe He is, have at it.

I believe what the Scriptures says mate, and not your eisegesis.
Blessings
J.

 

[Lambano]

I believe what the Scriptures says mate, and not your eisegesis.
Blessings
J.

Why would you believe anything that was written by a monster?

 

[Johann]

This is the second death, the final cessation of life.

Luk 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
Luk 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

These are in red letters...no cessation of life.

 

[Lambano]

The Rich Man is in Hades. Hades will be destroyed at the end of time. The Rich Man's torment is not eternal.

I stand by my exegesis.

 

[Lambano]

Clarify your statement Lambano...like the others, you have not read what stands written in scriptures Perfect Tense.

I stand by my exegesis. And my assessment of God's character.

 

[GEN2REV]

Luk 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
Luk 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

These are in red letters...no cessation of life.

Because of the two different versions of what happens after death, I admit I'm still uncertain.

But we can be sure Jesus wasn't relating a parable here. He didn't explain the parable after to His disciples and He used proper names for Abraham and Lazarus.

Also, Jesus explained the Wheat and Tares doctrine to His disciples after, but made clear that it wasn't just a parable. So the whole rule that only parables are spoken in public and explained later doesn't necessarily prove anything to be a parable only.

 

[dev553344]

I believe in purgatory. The scriptures say that they will not get out until they have paid the uttermost farthing. This implies at some time getting out, which is why I believe in purgatory. Also that there are sins not unto death.

Matthew 5:26

“Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.”

 

[Johann]

I believe in purgatory.

Nope, there is no such thing as purgatory, the word is not in my KJV.
Blessings
J.

 

[GEN2REV]

The Rich Man is in Hades. Hades will be destroyed at the end of time. The Rich Man's torment is not eternal.

I stand by my exegesis.

Interesting point.

I have long leaned toward destruction of some kind for the unbelieving sinners.

Another possible contradiction would be Isaiah 66:24 painting the image of the saved witnessing the damned as they burn/rot away for some time.

 

[Johann]

Because of the two different versions of what happens after death, I admit I'm still uncertain.

At least you are open and transparent.

Scriptures is very clear on this very "controversial" subject.

Can the Spirit, or Soul, Be Destroyed?

Blessings
J.

 

[Johann]

I also trust that God is good;

Would you say that Elohim is "unjust" for letting sinners go to Hell?

 

[Cassandra]

As for eternal life:


1 Timothy 6:15-16 KJV
which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

These verses show God alone is immortal. And John 3:16
John 3:16

"...whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." This says those that believeth are going to live forever, which means that those who do not , will not.

 

[Lambano]

it is a hard pill to swallow when you realize you theology is wrong.

Don't worry; you'll get over it.

 

[dev553344]

Nope, there is no such thing as purgatory, the word is not in my KJV.
Blessings
J.

The word purgatory was created after the bible to describe what the bible says. But the scripture I posted stands as a record of itself.