˒ĕlōhı̂m: Plural Persons, or Majesty?

[TahitiRun]

Oneness Pentecostals are Unitarians....

With regards to the Divinity of Christ that we're discussing here, no they are not. To the best of my knowledge, Unitarians deny Christ's deity. The Oneness of God doctrine affirms the full deity of Jesus: That Jesus is the Eternal God, YHWH manifested in the flesh (1Ti 3:16). The One in whom dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily (Col 2:9). That Jesus is our Great God and Savior who's blessed hope and glorious appearing we look for (Tit 2:13).

Your posts are now becoming intellectually dishonest. That, or you simply do not understand the things you post about. And I think we both know this.

Mat 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

Do you have any response to posts #9 and #11? If not, simply say "no".

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

With regards to the Divinity of Christ that we're discussing here, no they are not. To the best of my knowledge, Unitarians deny Christ's deity. The Oneness of God doctrine affirms the full deity of Jesus: That Jesus is the Eternal God, YHWH manifested in the flesh (1Ti 3:16). The One in whom dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily (Col 2:9). That Jesus is our Great God and Savior who's blessed hope and glorious appearing we look for (Tit 2:13).

Your posts are now becoming intellectually dishonest. That, or you simply do not understand the things you post about. And I think we both know this.

Mat 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

Do you have any response to posts #9 and #11? If not, simply say "no".

Oneness Pentecostals is FALSE HERESY!

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

our posts are now becoming intellectually dishonest. That, or you simply do not understand the things you post about. And I think we both know this.

before you make you dumb statements, you should know what you are talking about.

Oneness Pentecostals and Unitarians BOTH deny the Bible's Teaching of the Trinity, One Godhead in Three Distinct 100% Equal Persons.

BOTH teach the ARCH HERESY that God the Father was on the cross, and He is not a "distinct" Person to Jesus Christ, Who was the ONLY ONE on the cross!

You have FAILED to refute ANYTHING that I have said in the OP, because the TRUTH as taught in the Bible, cannot be refuted!

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Do you have any response to posts #9 and #11? If not, simply say "no".

you don't even understand what you are writing here! You quote Hebrew and Greek, but wrongly, as your application is flawed.

Can you explain why God is referred to as CREATORS and MAKERS in the Old Testament?

Can you explain how God the Father could use the words in Psalm 102:24-27, which are used for ELOHIM, and address them to Jesus Christ, in Hebrews 1:10-12, though Hebrews 2:10 is clear that the Father is also The Creator?

You post a link by the HERETIC, David Bernard, who, like you PRETENDS that he knows what he is on about, but only produces FALSE teachings about the God of the Bible! He won't be able to refute the OP.

 

[TahitiRun]

Oneness Pentecostals is FALSE HERESY!

I understand your assertion, though I don't agree with it insofar as it applies to the Oneness of God doctrine.

What I would like you to do is tell me how the following Greek texts (copied from post #9) are being misquoted and/or misapplied. Can you do this for me?

1. The LXX of Gen 1:27, found here:

καὶ ἐποίησεν (3rd person singular) ὁ θεὸς (singular) τὸν ἄνθρωπον, κατ᾿ εἰκόνα θεοῦ (singular) ἐποίησεν (3rd person singular) αὐτόν, ἄρσεν καὶ θῆλυ ἐποίησεν (3rd person singular) αὐτούς.

2. And, perhaps more importantly, Jesus' own commentary regarding the creation account of man and woman, in Mat 19:4, here:

ὁ δὲ ἀποκριθεὶς εἶπεν Οὐκ ἀνέγνωτε ὅτι ὁ κτίσας (singular) ἀπ' ἀρχῆς ἄρσεν καὶ θῆλυ ἐποίησεν (3rd person singular) αὐτοὺς

3. As well as Mar 10:6, here:

ἀπὸ δὲ ἀρχῆς κτίσεως ἄρσεν καὶ θῆλυ ἐποίησεν (3rd person singular) αὐτούς·

 

[GEN2REV]

you are well wrong in what you say. You have completely ignored the fact, that in the OT, God is called CREATORS and MAKERS, in the PLURAL. explain this

The Bible, taken as a whole, does not support your position at all.

God is ONE.

Only demon gods of other religions are plural.

 

[GEN2REV]

before you make you dumb statements, you should know what you are talking about.

Oneness Pentecostals and Unitarians BOTH deny the Bible's Teaching of the Trinity, One Godhead in Three Distinct 100% Equal Persons.

BOTH teach the ARCH HERESY that God the Father was on the cross, and He is not a "distinct" Person to Jesus Christ, Who was the ONLY ONE on the cross!

You have FAILED to refute ANYTHING that I have said in the OP, because the TRUTH as taught in the Bible, cannot be refuted!

People who believe as you do are astonishing to me.

Have you ever had a single original thought in all your life?

Do you know that the Trinity concept is taught nowhere in Scripture? That means it has to be 100% TAUGHT to you by man. Nobody in all of history ever read the Bible on their own and came away with a concept of the Trinity.

You are sorely mistaken, and as Tahiti has implied, I also don't buy that you don't know that already.

 

[TahitiRun]

before you make you dumb statements, you should know what you are talking about.

Oneness Pentecostals and Unitarians BOTH deny the Bible's Teaching of the Trinity, One Godhead in Three Distinct 100% Equal Persons....

Your assertion that the Bible teaches a trinitarian concept of God hasn't been established. You've simply made the assertion, which is easy to do, but in so doing violated what Jesus Himself taught, here:

Mar 12:29 and Jesus answered him—'The first of all the commands is , Hear, O Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is one;

Not God in "three persons", but rather "the Lord is one" and the "Lord is God". Both nouns (Lord and God) being used in the Greek singular. The verb "is" being used 3rd person singular.

For instance: A singular person can have multiple titles/names and/or capacities (ie: duties/roles/actions) in what or how they perform their work in life. For example: I'm a "son" to my father, a "father" to my children as well as being a "husband" to my wife and a "brother" to my sister, as well as holding the license/title "Architect" for a living. However, this does not make me five "distinct and separate" persons, but rather a singular person operating within five different capacities, as called upon or needed, within the circumstances as they present themselves. I can fulfill the function of all five distinct roles and do so as one person.

Do you understand this concept regarding the Oneness doctrine?

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

I understand your assertion, though I don't agree with it insofar as it applies to the Oneness of God doctrine.

What I would like you to do is tell me how the following Greek texts (copied from post #9) are being misquoted and/or misapplied. Can you do this for me?

1. The LXX of Gen 1:27, found here:

καὶ ἐποίησεν (3rd person singular) ὁ θεὸς (singular) τὸν ἄνθρωπον, κατ᾿ εἰκόνα θεοῦ (singular) ἐποίησεν (3rd person singular) αὐτόν, ἄρσεν καὶ θῆλυ ἐποίησεν (3rd person singular) αὐτούς.

2. And, perhaps more importantly, Jesus' own commentary regarding the creation account of man and woman, in Mat 19:4, here:

ὁ δὲ ἀποκριθεὶς εἶπεν Οὐκ ἀνέγνωτε ὅτι ὁ κτίσας (singular) ἀπ' ἀρχῆς ἄρσεν καὶ θῆλυ ἐποίησεν (3rd person singular) αὐτοὺς

3. As well as Mar 10:6, here:

ἀπὸ δὲ ἀρχῆς κτίσεως ἄρσεν καὶ θῆλυ ἐποίησεν (3rd person singular) αὐτούς·

for your information, God the Holy Spirit only Inspired the Writers of the Old Testament, to use the Hebrew language. There is little value in using a man-made translation to try to "prove" your nonsense!

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

The Bible, taken as a whole, does not support your position at all.

God is ONE.

Only demon gods of other religions are plural.

another person with their limited responses to the OP, where I have shown in great detail, more than you will get in any Hebrew lexicon, or commentary, on the use of the singular and plural, and yet you guys, blinded by your theology, refuse to accept the Bible's TRUTH

WHY would the Bible use the PLURAL "CREATORS" and "MAKERES" in places, and yet in other places, the SINGULAR "CREATOR" and "MAKER"?

Address this for starters, IF you can.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Your assertion that the Bible teaches a trinitarian concept of God hasn't been established. You've simply made the assertion, which is easy to do, but in so doing violated what Jesus Himself taught, here:

Mar 12:29 and Jesus answered him—'The first of all the commands is , Hear, O Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is one;

Not God in "three persons", but rather "the Lord is one" and the "Lord is God". Both nouns (Lord and God) being used in the Greek singular. The verb "is" being used 3rd person singular.

For instance: A singular person can have multiple titles/names and/or capacities (ie: duties/roles/actions) in what or how they perform their work in life. For example: I'm a "son" to my father, a "father" to my children as well as being a "husband" to my wife and a "brother" to my sister, as well as holding the license/title "Architect" for a living. However, this does not make me five "distinct and separate" persons, but rather a singular person operating within five different capacities, as called upon or needed, within the circumstances as they present themselves. I can fulfill the function of all five distinct roles and do so as one person.

Do you understand this concept regarding the Oneness doctrine?

Deuteronomy 6:4

 

[TahitiRun]

you don't even understand what you are writing here! You quote Hebrew and Greek, but wrongly, as your application is flawed....

And yet, you've not responded to posts #9 and #11, how they're "wrongly quoted" or having a "flawed application", other than by casting your insults far and wide and hoisting up your assertions with overworked and tired dogma.

The rest of your comments are really not worth replying to.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

And yet, you've not responded to posts #9 and #11 on how they're "wrongly quoted" or having a "flawed application", other than by casting your insults far and wide and hoisting up your assertions with overworked and tired dogma.

The rest of your comments are really not worth replying to.

John 1:1, "Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος, καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος"

John 1:18, "θεὸν οὐδεὶς ἑώρακεν πώποτε· μονογενὴς θεὸς ὁ ὢν εἰς τὸν κόλπον τοῦ πατρὸς ἐκεῖνος ἐξηγήσατο"

DESTROY'S "Oneness and Unitarian" teaching of God. Period!

 

[GEN2REV]

another person with their limited responses to the OP, where I have shown in great detail, more than you will get in any Hebrew lexicon, or commentary, on the use of the singular and plural, and yet you guys, blinded by your theology, refuse to accept the Bible's TRUTH

WHY would the Bible use the PLURAL "CREATORS" and "MAKERES" in places, and yet in other places, the SINGULAR "CREATOR" and "MAKER"?

Address this for starters, IF you can.

You're using extra-biblical sources from which to make your claims.

No credibility there.

 

[GEN2REV]

John 1:1, "Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος, καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος"

John 1:18, "θεὸν οὐδεὶς ἑώρακεν πώποτε· μονογενὴς θεὸς ὁ ὢν εἰς τὸν κόλπον τοῦ πατρὸς ἐκεῖνος ἐξηγήσατο"

DESTROY'S "Oneness and Unitarian" teaching of God. Period!

Guess we'll all find out when we stand before the THREE Great White ThroneS.

Wait, .... If the Father gave all Judgment to the Son, and the Son can't Judge anything without the Father, AND when the Son turns the kingdom over to the Father, it is the end, WHERE THE HECK IS THE 3RD PERSON OF THE "TRINITY" IN ALL OF THAT?
John 5:22-30
1 Corinthians 15:20-27

AND Jesus tells us that He AND the Father ARE the Holy Spirit here:
John 14:21-23

Looks like your theory's BUSTED ONCE AGAIN, doesn't it?!!

ETA: Your team will never learn.
2 Timothy 3:7

 

[TahitiRun]

...the Bible's Teaching of the Trinity, One Godhead in Three Distinct 100% Equal Persons...

I'm not so sure that's the definition of the trinity by the way. Here is how I understand what the trinity is:

Definition of Trinity (taken from Merriam-Webster Dictionary)

1 : the unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three persons in one Godhead according to Christian dogma.

Has this definition changed? And if so, when and why? Is it one Godhead in three persons, or three persons in one Godhead?

Let's get your dogma settled first...

 

[TahitiRun]

for your information, God the Holy Spirit only Inspired the Writers of the Old Testament, to use the Hebrew language. There is little value in using a man-made translation to try to "prove" your nonsense!

My argument isn't that the LXX was divinely inspired, but rather that it gives insight into the meaning and understanding of the Hebrew text, particularly with regards to it's grammar, syntax and idioms.

This "man-made translation" that you eschew/criticize of having "little value" was used and quoted repeatedly by the NT writers (some 90 times, verbatim if memory serves), and who were divinely inspired by the Holy Spirit to do so.

A sample of these quotes that you assert as having "little-value", are found here:

Septuagint Quotes in the New Testament

I find it amazing that you, living some 2,300 years after the LXX was first translated from the Hebrew, believe that you possess more knowledge, understanding and insight into the Hebrew text, as pertaining to it's vocabulary, grammar and syntax, than the 70 who translated it into Greek.

BGTF, you simply cannot be taken seriously, and I hope you realize this.

 

[GEN2REV]

...the Bible's Teaching of the Trinity, One Godhead in Three Distinct 100% Equal Persons..

I'm not so sure that's the definition of the trinity by the way.

There is no BIBLE'S definition of the Trinity; nor any teaching of it in the Bible.

That's ridiculous.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

You're using extra-biblical sources from which to make your claims.

No credibility there.

The Old Testament is "extra Biblical"? Then you have a FALSE bible!

These passages are from God's Infallible, Inerrant, Inspired Word:

But, in Job 35:10, it is very interesting, “But none says, ‘Where is God my Maker, who gives songs in the night”. Here “God” is “˒ĕlōah”, masculine, singular; and “Maker”, “‘ō·śāy”, masculine, plural, literally, “God my Makers”. Again, why the singular “˒ĕlōah”, with the plural, “‘ō·śāy”? It is clear from this, that “˒ĕlōah”, is used to show the “Essential Unity”; and “‘ō·śāy”, for the “Plurality of Persons”. There is not other explanation for this. We should have expected, the singular “‘ō·śê·nî”.

This is also seen in Isaiah 54:5, “For your Maker (‘ō·śa·yiḵ, plural, your Makers) is your Husband (ḇō·‘ă·la·yiḵ, plural, your Husbands), the LORD of Hosts is His Name (šə·mōw, sing); and the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer, the God of the whole earth he is called”. Why not as in Isaiah 51:13, where we read the singular?

Likewise, in Ecclesiastes 12:1, “Remember also your Creator in the days of your youth”

Here “your Creator”, “bō·wr·’e·ḵā”, is the masculine, plural, “your Creators”. Why the plural?

Genesis 46:3, “Then he said, “I am God (hā·’êl) , the God (ĕ·lō·hê) of your father”

Literally, “I am the God, the Gods”

Exodus 20:5, “You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God”

“’ā·nō·ḵî Yehôvâh ’ĕ·lō·he·ḵā ’êl qan·nā”, literally, “I Yahweh your Gods God jealous” (also Deuteronomy 4:24, etc)

2 Samuel 22:32, “For who is God (’êl), but the LORD (Yehôvâh)? And who is a Rock, except our God (’ĕ·lō·hê·nū) ?”

“God...Yahweh...Gods”

In Proverbs 9:10, we read, “The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and the knowledge of the Holy One is insight”

“the LORD”, “Yehôvâh”, masculine, singular

“the Holy One”, “qə·ḏō·šîm”, masculine, plural, “the Holy Ones”

Proverbs 30:3, “I have not learned wisdom, nor have I knowledge of the Holy One”

“the Holy One”, “qə·ḏō·šîm”, masculine, plural, “the Holy Ones”

Now prove these to be wrong

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Guess we'll all find out when we stand before the THREE Great White ThroneS.

Wait, .... If the Father gave all Judgment to the Son, and the Son can't Judge anything without the Father, AND when the Son turns the kingdom over to the Father, it is the end, WHERE THE HECK IS THE 3RD PERSON OF THE "TRINITY" IN ALL OF THAT?
John 5:22-30
1 Corinthians 15:20-27

AND Jesus tells us that He AND the Father ARE the Holy Spirit here:
John 14:21-23

Looks like your theory's BUSTED ONCE AGAIN, doesn't it?!!

ETA: Your team will never learn.
2 Timothy 3:7

The time Jesus Christ was on earth as the God-Man, it is about JESUS CHRIST as the Saviour of the world. The Holy Spirit did not become "flesh", as we read in John 1:14, nor God the Father, but Jesus Christ.

As I have clearly shown, that John 1:1 has TWO distinct Persons Who are equally God. "καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν", "and the Word was WITH God". The Greek preposition πρὸς shows that they are DISTINCT, it literally means, "to face another", "to be near another", "in the presence of", etc. Jesus Christ, Who is "The Word", CANNOT be the SAME Person as "The God", Who He is WITH.

Likewise in 1:18, the first "θεὸν" is God the Father, Who is in the verse. The second "θεὸς" is Jesus Christ, Who "ὁ ὢν εἰς τὸν κόλπον τοῦ πατρὸς", that is, "in close relation to the Father", the Greek κόλπον means, "bosom, near the chest" of ANOTHER Person, and therefore DISTINCT. The same word is used in John 13:23, "One of his disciples, whom Jesus loved, was reclining at table at Jesus’ side (κόλπον)" Jesus Christ is not the SAME Person as the Disciple who was by His SIDE.

Then we have John 10:30, where Jesus says, "ἐγὼ καὶ ὁ Πατὴρ ἕν ἐσμεν", literally, "I and The Father one thing (ἕν, neuter singular, one nature) We are (ἐσμεν, masculine plural)".

This is all from the Holy Bible, God's Word!