The Disciple John
Active Member
Once we start to run on that narrow road to life, I figure, it would be difficult for many to run abreast.
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Let's discuss..cessation after death?
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The Disciple John
Active Member
Question
Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
Thanks Joe, I certainly love conversing with you too. A bit puzzled about what WWB is, are you meaning the World Wide Web?
Based on the word Signified, I'm assuming that's what you mean, is that correct?
Much love!
Yes, symbols are used, and meanings are given.
Trust me, I understand your reasoning here. "the lake of fire" 'is' "the second death", therefore, there isn't actually a lake of fire, just like there isn't actually a candlestick.
Like there isn't actually a burning censor. Like there isn't actually a trumpet. Is that how it goes? Personally I think we shouldn't so quickly dismiss such things. How do you know that an angel is not going to actually hurl a burning censor into the earth?
"I saw a great sign in the heaven . . .", here is a place where he says what he sees is a sign of something else. "Another great sign . . .", he does it again. "That ancient serpent . . . Satan . . .", he names the meaning of the sign. This is Biblical authority.
"The lake of fire, which is the second death", to say, "there is no real lake of fire, though, it's a symbol for the second death", that simply lacks Biblical authority.
Just like, "there is no actual censor".
Much love!
Like Jesus . . . "into your hands I commit my spirit", and He "gave up the spirit". He body remained hanging lifeless on the cross, but His spirit departed.
Like the Samuel, the prophet, his body entombed, his spirit resting in the heart of the earth.
How does that happen? Our body ceases to support biological life, and our spirit leaves it.
Much love!
Why all the pageantry in the Revelation?
I suggest because it shows how God does things, how He organizes things that He does to include humans and angels, and to order our minds to think of things in certain ways.
Much love!
I suggest because it shows how God does things, how He organizes things that He does to include humans and angels, and to order our minds to think of things in certain ways.
Much love!
Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
Rom 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
Rom 11:35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
Rom 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
This is why I say, just submit ourselves to the Word, let it wash through us without denying any part of it. Let us just hold fast to every word, that we can be reformed according to the mind of Christ.
Much love!
Revelation 1:1 KJV
1) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Is John's use here of "signified" intended to communicate that the meanings in this book are all hidden in symbols?
G4591
σημαίνω
sēmainō
say-mah'ee-no
From σῆμα sēma (a mark; of uncertain derivation); to indicate: - signify.
Total KJV Occurrences: 6
signifying, 3
John 12:33, John 18:32, John 21:19
signified, 2
Acts 11:28, Revelation 1:1
signify, 1
Acts 25:27
John 12:32-33 KJV
32) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
33) This he said, signifying what death he should die.
John 18:31-32 KJV
31) Then said Pilate unto them, Take ye him, and judge him according to your law. The Jews therefore said unto him, It is not lawful for us to put any man to death:
32) That the saying of Jesus might be fulfilled, which he spake, signifying what death he should die.
John 21:18-19 KJV
18) Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.
19) This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.
Acts 11:27-29 KJV
27) And in these days came prophets from Jerusalem unto Antioch.
28) And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar.
29) Then the disciples, every man according to his ability, determined to send relief unto the brethren which dwelt in Judaea:
Acts 25:26-27 KJV
26) Of whom I have no certain thing to write unto my lord. Wherefore I have brought him forth before you, and specially before thee, O king Agrippa, that, after examination had, I might have somewhat to write.
27) For it seemeth to me unreasonable to send a prisoner, and not withal to signify the crimes laid against him.
These are the other places this word appears in the New Testament. In each case it means to "make something known", not to "encode it in symbols".
Jesus said "lifted up", the then idiom for crucifixion. Now we'd say he'd get the chair, or the needle, and those are our idioms. Jesus said "lifted up" to signify the death He would die, that is, make it known.
Agabus made it known that there would be a famine, and the disciples responded.
And Festus, specifically, this was to have certain known charges against Paul. 'Signify' here expressly means to make clear and specific information plainly known.
The Revelation is an "uncovering", revealing. The book itself tells us when something is a symbol, and what that symbol means. And in fact unless that is true, your interpretion lacks Scriptural authority.
A great sign appears in heaven, and another great sign, and these are identified as signs, and those signs are defined, and this has Scriptural authority.
Where such things are not specifically said, I suggest giving very careful consideration before declaring certain things aren't actually real.
Much love!
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The Disciple John
Active Member
Thanks for answering.
You tell me what it is saying to you.
Symbols are used, and meanings are given, but you don't think symbols are used? I don't understand. Sorry if I misunderstood what you said here.
What spirit was that?
Can you refer me to the scripture that says that, and what spirit was that?
...and where does the spirit go?
Let's not dance around on this one, let's cut to the chase. If a person is reborn, their living spirit is already with Jesus, and remans with Jesus. If they are not, they will go to the heart of the earth to await judgment.
If you have a different view, go ahead and summarize it for me, with this kind of simpliciy, if you would, if you wish to discuss this topic.
I believe what I read in the Bible, such as that where it says Saul spoke with Samuel, I happen to believe that's what happened. If you don't believe that, what can I tell you? I encourage you to believe the Scriptures.
Much love!
The heavenly Jerusalem, the Bride, is it a real city? Aren't we looking for the heavenly city? Isn't the heavenly city our mother?
There are spiritual realities embued with meaning that remain spiritual realities. Yes there is an heavenly city, and yes that city is our mother, and His bride, and there is still an heavenly city.
Hopefully that will help express how I think of this.
"I saw a great sign in the heavens, a red dragon . . .", I'm not thinking here of a reptilian denizon of the earth, rather, "that ancient serpent . . . Satan", this is specifically who we're talking about there.
The sword of the Spirit is the Word of God. Not that the Word of God is a hammered metal sword, that's a fleshy sword, this is a spirit-sword and I don't know what that looks like but it works the same, when used correctly, it's a powerful weapon.
Much love!
The Disciple John
Active Member
If I say something, and don't have scripture to support what I say, then saying more of what I believe without scriptural support, would be "dancing around it", bcause I can't find scripture to support the belief.
According to your wish, I will not ask.
However, please remember the golden rule.
The Bible does not say anything about one having a living spirit that is already with Jesus, and remains with Jesus.
Since the Bible says there will be a resurrection of both the righteous (just) and unrighteous (unjust) - Acts 24:15, what you said there cannot be true.
Both the righteous and the unrighteous go the same place, according to both the Hebrew and Greek scriptures.
Saul did not speak to Samuel, and Samuel did not speak to Saul, but "Samuel" did.
1 Samuel 28:8-15
8 And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.
11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.
12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
.....
This witch who communicates with demons did see demons - I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
Saul saw nothing. He did not see Samuel, nor hear Samuel. What form is he of? He took the woman's word, and believed a Devil worshiper... and listened to the voice of a demon.
How foolish. If only Saul had listened to, and obeyed God, he would not have found himself in that position.
The same is true of all who do not accept God's way of teaching truth. 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12; 2 Corinthians 4:3-4
Don't these tell us that?
Ephesians 2:4-7 LITV
4) But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5) even we being dead in deviations, He made us alive together with Christ (by grace you are being saved),
6) and raised us up together and seated us together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus,
7) that He might demonstrate in the ages coming on, the exceeding great riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Colossians 3:1-4 LITV
1) If, then, you were raised with Christ, seek the things above, where Christ is sitting at the right of God;
2) mind the things above, not the things on the earth.
3) For you died, and your life has been hidden with Christ in God.
4) Whenever Christ our life is revealed, then also you will be revealed with Him in glory.
Much love!
You even quote the part you deny the truthfulness of, "And Samuel said to Saul", but you say that part of the Bible isn't true.
Much love!
Ecc_3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
The Disciple John
Active Member
Solomon asked a good question considering the revelation of his day, Who knows the spirit of man . . . ?
Ecclesiastes 3:18-22 LITV
18) I said in my heart concerning the issue of the sons of men, that God may test them and see that they by themselves are beasts.
19) For that which happens to the sons of men, and that which happens to beasts, even one event is to them. As this one dies, so that one dies; yea, one breath is to all; so that there is to the man no advantage over the beast; for all is vanity.
20) All go to one place; all are of the dust, and all return to the dust.
21) Who knows the spirit of the sons of man, whether it goes upward; and the spirit of the beast, whether it goes downward to the earth?
22) And I have seen that nothing is better than that the man should rejoice in his works; for that is his portion; for who can bring him to see what shall be after him?
Much love!
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