Not real, just imagined. I just don't find that argument convincing.
"Before the world existed", how clear a time statement do you want? But alas, I'm repeating myself over and over now.
Much love!
A spirit of Gnosticism
J.
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Not real, just imagined. I just don't find that argument convincing.
"Before the world existed", how clear a time statement do you want? But alas, I'm repeating myself over and over now.
Much love!
As I see it, the whole Jesus exercise, if we can call it that, is to show first hand, without an intermediary the character of God, ie, how he is wired at his core.How about starting off with the Garden of Gethsemane scripture when Christ was praying to his Father? What is the local and surrounding context of these passages? Who is the subject, who is the object? Why did Christ weep and became very sad on the heels of his glory he wished and hoped to have, promised to him by his Father? What does it say about Christ? He was human, with a human nature, not a Father God nature, although his Father spoke 'into' him all the time since his birth as with his angels.
3. Later in verse 22 we see that Jesus is desiring his Father to give the same glory, give immortality, even to all true believers as himself in the future. We know this to be true. If Jesus pre-existed in immortality and even with a divine nature apart from his Father, then did all true believers have the same immortality and even divine nature in the past? Or, shall they in the future, share in the same glory as Christ?! As already pointed out, scripture says that Jesus did acquire immortality for the first time, and all believers shall be immortal in the future as Christ. All shall share in the divinity of the God the Father (2 Peter 1:4). None have or own a divine nature except the Father. There is only one divine being and it is God Almighty, the Father of all that believe in his existence and presence within their lives, including Christ, our Lord.
I've not yet found your substantiation for this assertion yet.It is an OLD expression (idiom) as many of these idioms are in scripture.
As the last point . . . Jesus had full power of life and death - His Own, and others - prior to the cross.4. In verse 24 Jesus prays to his Father as if this glory of immortality is given to him for the first time after his death on the cross. His Father loved him from ancient times before Jesus actually went to the cross and received this glory of immortality for the first time. It is clear though that the Father gave Jesus immortality and thus Jesus cannot be God the Father himself, as that would disregard scripture completely.
(Joh 17:24) Father, I desire that they also whom You have given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which You have given me. For You loved me from before the foundation of the world.
I expect you are correct.We are beginning to circle back I believe and I do not want to repeat what I've already said. This discussion is already going nowhere I'm afraid.
How do you mean?1Jn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1Jn 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
Correct marks, but he's going a step further..as you may have noticed.
J.
How do you mean?
Much love!
How do you mean?
Much love!
Happy trails!Anyway, I'm signing off, 01.47 in the morning here.
God bless
J.
Well I do read you loud and clear in your response. It does impress upon me in a refreshing way, the significance of God's love for us and his creation through his own image of his Son.As I see it, the whole Jesus exercise, if we can call it that, is to show first hand, without an intermediary the character of God, ie, how he is wired at his core.
His condescension and humiliation, reveals this. His whole journey among us from his conception through to Gethsemane and Calvary are windows into the heart of God which I think neither the Devil or other watching intelligences were expecting......ie, that the Creator of all that exists would empty himself to the point of allowing his creatures to murder him. It left them gob smacked so to speak.....it elevated God's heart in the understanding of the Universe to a level of adoration previously unknown.
Revelation 7:12 describes their response:-
“Amen! 1Praise and 2glory and 3wisdom and 4thanks and 5honour and 6power and 7strength be to our God for ever and ever. Amen!”
It is in our interest to not understate this in our understanding.....to not gloss over it and take it for granted.
I have numbered and highlighted the expressions that are used.....yes, 7. as an interesting aside. Is this coincidental?.....I think not....but thats another story.
(sister, lol)Some member was upset (don't know why) by you saying "God the Son" and not the Son of God...petty,silly remarks.
Shalom to you and family dear brother in Christ.
J.
As you said in your other thread you created about the definition of glory, there is only one glorification of the Son of Man, by implication at least, as you stated per scripture.You answer this yourself in the above paragraph. Jesus shared glory with the Father before the world existed. Jesus will share immortality and glory with the redeemed in the time to come. So no need to conflate these.
Much love!
Marks, would you say you tend to apply a literal reading of this text? I've noticed in my time here few believers actually refer to the Bible to support their beliefs and when they do they tend to take the text at face value. Would you say this is your approach?Were Jesus actually wanting to express to His Father that He desired the Father once again glorify Him with the glory He had with His Father before the world was, how would He have to say it so that you'd believe it?
Much love!
Sister.Some member was upset (don't know why) by you saying "God the Son" and not the Son of God...petty,silly remarks.
Shalom to you and family dear brother in Christ.
J.
I guess I missed this question of yours.I've not yet found your substantiation for this assertion yet.
"Before the world existed", where else do you see this expression in Scripture, in a context that tells us this is idiomatic, figurative, not an actual time statement?
Much love!
John 18:20 KJVI've not yet found your substantiation for this assertion yet.
"Before the world existed", where else do you see this expression in Scripture, in a context that tells us this is idiomatic, figurative, not an actual time statement?
Much love!