For those who think Christ is not God.

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Is Christ God?

  • God

    Votes: 31 77.5%
  • Lesser than God

    Votes: 7 17.5%
  • A mere Son/Man of God.

    Votes: 2 5.0%

  • Total voters
    40

Johann

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Marks, would you say you tend to apply a literal reading of this text? I've noticed in my time here few believers actually refer to the Bible to support their beliefs and when they do they tend to take the text at face value. Would you say this is your approach?

Sorry for butting in, I take the literal approach, no question about it,


Peshat
‘Peshat’ derives from a Hebrew root meaning ‘simple’. This initial level of understanding is the plain, simple, obvious, literal, intended, explicit meaning of the text. All Scripture should be read at the peshat level first. Furthermore, any other interpretations of the text should never contradict the peshat.

As an example of the peshat, consider Genesis 1:7, which states: “Thus God made the firmament [or expanse], and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so.” At the peshat level of understanding, we would assume that the word ‘waters’ literally refers to H2O in the physical realm, (whereas at another level we might explore the idea that ‘waters’ can also be a metaphor for ‘people’, as explained in Revelation 17:15, with a possible interpretation in the spiritual realm in accordance with Luke 16:26).

Remez
‘Remez’ in modern Hebrew means a ‘hint’ or ‘indication’. Sometimes the Biblical text can hint at a truth which is not obvious in the peshat. An Old Testament account might hint at a New Testament fulfilment. Some OT characters, like Moses (for example), are also ‘types’ who ‘hint at’ (or point towards) the Messiah Jesus. Dr David Stern writes: “The implied presupposition is that God can hint at things of which the Bible writers themselves were unaware.” 1

Genesis 14:18 provides an interesting example: “Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; he was the priest of God Most High.” Surely this verse hints at the Last Supper that was presided over by the Lord Jesus, who is our “High Priest according to the order of Melchizedek” (Hebrews 5:10).

Remez, as a verb, also means ‘to imply’. When seeking to understand Scripture at the remez level, the reader is looking for whatever else might be implied by the text. There could be an alluded meaning (reading between the lines), and/or something that embraces the rich breadth of meaning covered by any of the Hebrew words used in the text. The English language consists of many more words than the Hebrew language. On average, for every Hebrew word in the Bible, there are more than 15 possible English words. This means that Hebrew words often have quite a wide range of meanings in English. In particular, a Hebrew word might have both a physical or ‘concrete’ meaning and also a spiritual or abstract meaning.

In particular, a Hebrew word might have both a physical or ‘concrete’ meaning and also a spiritual or abstract meaning.

The latter half of Exodus 17 describes how the Amalekites attacked the Israelites at Rephidim. Moses stood on a hill, holding up his staff like a standard or a banner, whilst Joshua led the Israelite fighters in their battle with the Amalekites. As long as Moses held up his staff, as long as his hands were steady, the Israelites prevailed against the Amalekites. Eventually Aaron and Hur had to help Moses. They sat Moses upon a stone, and they supported his hands, one on each side. The Israelites won their first military engagement, and Moses built an altar, naming it ‘The Lord is my Banner’. That is a brief summary of the peshat. However, let us focus on two Hebrew words. Moses needed to keep his hands steady, and the Hebrew word for ‘steady’ in Exodus 17:12 is ‘emunah’. In a spiritual sense, emunah means ‘faith’. Thus a Hebrew-speaker would understand that Moses himself was fighting a battle of faith. The Hebrew word for staff, rod or banner, in both Exodus 17:9 and Exodus 17:15, is ‘nes’. In a spiritual sense, nes means ‘miracle’. Thus we could also say that Moses named his altar ‘The Lord is my Miracle’. God worked a miracle at Rephidim, enabling an untrained army of former slaves to defeat experienced Amalekite fighters, due to the faith (emunah) of Moses. This understanding is implied by the Hebrew text.

Derash
‘Derash’ literally means ‘search’. What we are searching for, when we look for something at the ‘derash’ level of understanding, is something deeper, generally an allegorical or a homiletic application of the text. The apostle Paul was accomplished at interpreting Scripture at the derash level. A good example is Paul’s treatment of the story of Sarah (who remains unnamed as such) and Hagar in Galatians 4. Paul compares these two women to two covenants. Hagar represents the law of Moses, received at Mount Sinai, which bears children for “slavery” (Gal 4:24) to the “weak and worthless spiritual principles” (Gal 4:9) of legalism, as practised by the Pharisees in “the present Jerusalem” (Gal 4:25). Sarah represents the New Covenant of “the Jerusalem above” (Gal 4:26), and she is the mother of all those who have faith in Jesus (both Messianic Jews and Gentile believers) – the “children of promise” (Gal 4:28) who are free.

Sohd
‘Sohd’ means ‘secret’. Sometimes there are secret things, hidden manna, concealed in the Word of God.

The practitioners of Kabbalah (Jewish mysticism) love to search for these secret things, but some of their practices have roots in the spiritual darkness of the Babylonian exile, and I would warn Christians to be very careful. The word ‘occult’ literally means ‘hidden’, and the occult manifests in Kabbalah.

On a purely scientific level, Israeli mathematicians have searched for hidden words in the Torah by using computer programs which look for Hebrew words that are formed using an equidistant letter ‘code’. Where they have discovered secret words close to each other, including some words that ‘intersect’ due to the equidistant letter system, they have revealed some intriguing associations of words. Michael Drosnin explains some of these discoveries in his book, ‘The Bible Code’, and I will quote one example. Published in 1997, Michael Drosnin wrote that “HarMegiddo” (Mount Megiddo, synonymous with Armageddon) and “Asad Shoah” (Assad holocaust) appear in a single equidistant letter sequence. Intersecting this is the phrase “Shooting from the military post”. Elsewhere, the name of “Syria” is encoded with “World War”.2 In the light of relatively recent events in Syria, one might wonder if these ‘discoveries’ are more than pure coincidence. However, I would urge caution, since not everything in Michael Drosnin’s book has come to pass in the manner suggested.

As Christians, surely, we should be guided by the Holy Spirit, who will sometimes reveal a piece of hidden manna.

Consider the example of Esther 9:7-10, which names Haman’s ten sons who were killed. Esther 9:13-14 then adds that Haman’s ten sons were hanged on gallows.

An article by Helen Belton (for Prophecy Today) on Purim mentioned the hanging of ten Nazi war criminals in October 1946. Helen noted that in the 11th century, a great rabbi had said Esther’s request for the sons of Haman to be hanged “tomorrow” (Esther 9:13) referred to a time in the future when ten enemies of the Jewish people would be hanged. Helen also pointed out that Julius Streicher, one of the ten Nazis, realised that the Nuremberg hangings could be seen as a repeat of the story in the Book of Esther, when the Jews were able to kill their enemies – including the ten sons of Haman who were hanged. The significance of the number ten was not lost on Streicher, who cried out: “Purim Fest 1946!”

J.
 

Robert Gwin

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Mat_16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Mar_8:29 And he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Peter answereth and saith unto him, Thou art the Christ.


Luk_4:41 And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ.

Luk_22:67 Art thou the Christ? tell us. And he said unto them, If I tell you, ye will not believe:

J.

Thank you Joe, you really helped me with this post, have made note of those in my Bible.
 
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Robert Gwin

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1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

I am giving you this link Robert, there are questions,...and then there are questions..

JESUS: ANSWERING QUESTIONS WITH QUESTIONS

Shalom to you and family.
(I don't know all the answers myself and that alone should teach us to remain humble and meek, for a bruised reed and a smoldering flax our Lord Christ Jesus will never quench.)

J.

None of us do Joe, heck, I wish I could remember a quarter of the knowledge I take in, sadly we all are far from perfect. You know the Bible points out that we may live an eternity, but will never know what God knows Ecc 3:11. But although scientists may b correct that we use just a minuscule portion of our brain capability, no doubt by the end of the millennial reign of Christ when all has been brought back to perfection, we will be quite capable.
 
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Robert Gwin

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How can you say that Jesus was NOT his God when Scripture...

Joh 20:28 In reply, T'oma said to Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach, Adoni and Elohai! [TEHILLIM 35:23]

ο κυριος μου και ο θεος μου

Joh 20:28 Then Thomas answered, & said vnto him, Thou art my Lord, and my God.

J.

Basically you said it yourself in your other post when you posted the scriptures identifying the Christ himself. Fact is Joe God does not have a God nor was He anointed, He does the anointing.

Thomas knew who God was, he was an apostle of Jesus and followed the same God as Jesus. The Bible does not contradict itself, Thomas was so excited to realize the individual standing before him was actually the resurrected Jesus, in fact the Jesus that was resurrected by God Himself. Acts 2:32
Your Hebrew version even chose to include the exclamation point at the end. How many times have you personally said my God when excited sir? More that we can count for sure. I recon I would have been excited as well. We get excited when it happens today, and it is a fairly common occurrence, but in those days it was unheard of.
 

Robert Gwin

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Jesus' name shall be called the mighty God(Is 9:6) and Thomas calls Jesus his God(John 20) and you say Jesus is not God, even with all that God consists of inside Jesus, bodily(Col 2:9), right now?

I trow not.

Truth I am going to ask you a serious question, and would appreciate a serious answer. As you know Jesus promoted another God, but lets say you are right. We know satan is a liar, and a deceiver, if Jesus is God, then he is obviously the same, he deceived us into thinking there is a God who existed in heaven Jn 4:24; Mat 3:17. But the real issue is and my question, if Jesus is God then he lied at Mk 10:40 and 13:32, so what hope could we have if Jesus our God is a liar?

I do hope you answer it sir 2 Tim 4:5, because I have asked this to many who promote Jesus as God, but rarely do I receive an answer, but at least I have made the point to you sir.
 

MatthewG

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Jesus Christ second name was Immanuel God with us, he was the Word of God, when God spoke the Word created - all things. The Word from above was born in flesh named Jesus and was the image of the invisible God and God was with him, the Father he prayed to.

In the end I see Jesus becoming the Lord God Almighty becoming one again with the Father (as in the beginning) after all victory had been had.

I pray to the Father, in the Sons name.
 

MatthewG

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So when you See verses in the Bible when God speaking his Word; that Word eventually became into flesh and carried out everything that was foretold about the coming future heavenly kingdom which we abide into today by faith in the death, burial and resurrection.

Born of the spirit being adopted into this new heavenly kingdom which is where your citizenship is found being a child of God that has the ability to grow in spirit being a Son or daughter of God.

The Word also carried out the promises of returning for the bride of Christ in 70Ad I believe personally and all judgment was meted out to the rebellious Israelites for having killed the messiah. Those who abided in faith and endured was saved from the wrath to come on Israel back in that day in time.

That Word was part of Yahweh, Jehovah in every way.
 

MatthewG

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Thomas when he touched Jesus said my Lord and my God, God was with Jesus (his name was Immanuel God with us) by the spirit and Thomas believed that Jesus was from above as he had exclaimed to the Pharisees back in his time.


I don’t subscribe to the trinity thing; with this is what I have proclaimed is all founded in the Bible itself, even the oldest text it will be there if you could read Greek and Hebrew but half of us can not.
 

Johann

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You see Christ said of himself that he was/should to be glorified (for the first time) with immortality and power at/after his death and spoke of it in the Garden praying and weeping about it before hand. Christ never spoke of his or a pre-existence of himself ever, unless you will response as a reflex action, and produce the usual trinitarian set

You have a problem with the Trinitarian view and now you are reducing the living Christ Jesus on par with the created angels, this is shocking!


Micah 5:2
Verse Concepts
“But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
Too little to be among the clans of Judah,
From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel.
His goings forth are from long ago,
From the days of eternity.”


Mic 5:2 [5:1] But thou, Beitlechem Ephratah, though thou be little among the Alphei Yehudah (Thousands of Yehudah), yet out of thee shall He [Moshiach] come forth unto Me [Hashem] that is to be Moshel Yisroel; whose goings forth (i.e. origins) have been mikedem, (from everlasting; see Chabakuk 1:12), mimei olam (from the days of eternity).
OJB

John 1:1
Verse Concepts
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Bereshis (in the Beginning) was the Dvar Hashem [YESHAYAH 55:11; BERESHIS 1:1], and the Dvar Hashem was agav (along with) Hashem [MISHLE 8:30; 30:4], and the Dvar Hashem was nothing less, by nature, than Elohim! [Psa 56:11(10); Yn 17:5; Rev. 19:13]

If you can't see the preexistence of Christ Jesus in the above verse you need to consult the Hebrew and Greek.

John 8:58
Verse Concepts
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”

Joh 8:58 Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach said to them, Omein, omein, I say to you, before Avraham came into being, Ani Hu. [SHEMOT 3:4; 6:3; YESHAYAH 41:4; 43:10,13]
OJB

John 17:5
Verse Concepts
Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

The much "contentious verse"

Joh 17:5 And now give me kavod, Avi, along with Yourself with the kavod which I was having with You before HaOlam came to be [Yn 1:1 3; Prov 8:30; 30:4].
OJB

John 17:24
Verse Concepts
Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

  1. Joh 17:24 Elohim Avi, as to that which You have given me, I desire that where I am, those also may be with me, that they may behold my kavod, which You have given me, because You had ahavah for me before the hivvased haOlam.
    OJB
Colossians 1:17
Verse Concepts
He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Col 1:17 And Moshiach is before all things, and all things in Moshiach have been held together;...THE CREATOR..and not being "created" [MISHLE 8:23-27; 30:4]
Col 1:18 And Moshiach is the Rosh [MISHLE 8:22; 30:4] of the Geviyah (Body) [Gn 47:18; Ps 16:9-10; Isa 53:11; Job 19:25-27], and the Geviyah (nevilah, DEVARIM 21:23) is Moshiach's Brit Chadasha Kehillah; Moshiach is its Reshit, the Bechor from the Mesim, that Moshiach might be in everything pre-eminent, [TEHILLIM 89:27]
Hebrews 7:3

Verse Concepts
Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, he remains a priest perpetually.

Heb 7:3 Without Av, without Em, without Yichus, having neither a techillah (beginning) leyamim (to days) of him nor a Ketz HaChayyim, but resembling HaBen HaElohim, he remains a “kohen perpetually,” (Ps 110:4).


Revelation 22:13
Verse Concepts
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

Rev 22:13 “I am the Aleph and the Tav, HaRishon (The First) and HaAcharon (The Last), HaReshit (The Beginning)...timeless excistence... and HaTachlit (The Ultimate).

Colossians 1:15
Verse Concepts
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.


Col 1:15 Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach is the demut (BERESHIS 1:26-2.7; Pp 2:6) of the invisible G-d, the Bechor [TEHILLIM 89:27], the Yoresh (Heir) of kol hanivrah (all creation),
Col 1:16 Because in Him...JESUS CREATOR.. were created all things in Shomayim and on Ha'Aretz, the visible and the nistar (hidden), whether thrones or dominions, whether rulers or authorities, all things through Him and for Him have been created. [TEHILLIM 33:6]
Hebrews 1:11-12
They will perish, but You remain;
And they all will become old like a garment,
And like a mantle You will roll them up;
Like a garment they will also be changed.
But You are the same,
And Your years will not come to an end.”


1 John 1:1-2
What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life— and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us—

John 1:1-2
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.

John 1:15
Verse Concepts
John *testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’”

Revelation 1:17-18
When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, “Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.

Revelation 2:8
Verse Concepts
“And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write:The first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life, says this:

Now, you need to look up the morphology of these words..Christ Jesus along with the Father and the Ruach HaKodesh did the "creating" and in NO wise was Jesus Inferior to the Father but equal and as God Jesus Is the CREATOR BEFORE anything came into being..

Literal Interpretation
Moral Interpretation
Allegorical Interpretation

Anagogical Interpretation

What are the different rules of hermeneutics?
As you can see, there are multiple approaches and disagreements about which branch of hermeneutics should be utilized, and we haven’t yet interpreted a single verse from the Bible! Unfortunately, it’s true that people can find anything to argue about. All of this may have you asking the question, ‘How do I integrate biblical hermeneutics?’

J.
 

MatthewG

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You have a problem with the Trinitarian view and now you are reducing the living Christ Jesus on par with the created angels, this is shocking!


Micah 5:2
Verse Concepts
“But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
Too little to be among the clans of Judah,
From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel.
His goings forth are from long ago,
From the days of eternity.”


Mic 5:2 [5:1] But thou, Beitlechem Ephratah, though thou be little among the Alphei Yehudah (Thousands of Yehudah), yet out of thee shall He [Moshiach] come forth unto Me [Hashem] that is to be Moshel Yisroel; whose goings forth (i.e. origins) have been mikedem, (from everlasting; see Chabakuk 1:12), mimei olam (from the days of eternity).
OJB

John 1:1
Verse Concepts
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Bereshis (in the Beginning) was the Dvar Hashem [YESHAYAH 55:11; BERESHIS 1:1], and the Dvar Hashem was agav (along with) Hashem [MISHLE 8:30; 30:4], and the Dvar Hashem was nothing less, by nature, than Elohim! [Psa 56:11(10); Yn 17:5; Rev. 19:13]

If you can't see the preexistence of Christ Jesus in the above verse you need to consult the Hebrew and Greek.

John 8:58
Verse Concepts
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”

Joh 8:58 Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach said to them, Omein, omein, I say to you, before Avraham came into being, Ani Hu. [SHEMOT 3:4; 6:3; YESHAYAH 41:4; 43:10,13]
OJB

John 17:5
Verse Concepts
Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

The much "contentious verse"

Joh 17:5 And now give me kavod, Avi, along with Yourself with the kavod which I was having with You before HaOlam came to be [Yn 1:1 3; Prov 8:30; 30:4].
OJB

John 17:24
Verse Concepts
Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

  1. Joh 17:24 Elohim Avi, as to that which You have given me, I desire that where I am, those also may be with me, that they may behold my kavod, which You have given me, because You had ahavah for me before the hivvased haOlam.
    OJB
Colossians 1:17
Verse Concepts
He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Col 1:17 And Moshiach is before all things, and all things in Moshiach have been held together;...THE CREATOR..and not being "created" [MISHLE 8:23-27; 30:4]
Col 1:18 And Moshiach is the Rosh [MISHLE 8:22; 30:4] of the Geviyah (Body) [Gn 47:18; Ps 16:9-10; Isa 53:11; Job 19:25-27], and the Geviyah (nevilah, DEVARIM 21:23) is Moshiach's Brit Chadasha Kehillah; Moshiach is its Reshit, the Bechor from the Mesim, that Moshiach might be in everything pre-eminent, [TEHILLIM 89:27]
Hebrews 7:3

Verse Concepts
Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, he remains a priest perpetually.

Heb 7:3 Without Av, without Em, without Yichus, having neither a techillah (beginning) leyamim (to days) of him nor a Ketz HaChayyim, but resembling HaBen HaElohim, he remains a “kohen perpetually,” (Ps 110:4).


Revelation 22:13
Verse Concepts
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

Rev 22:13 “I am the Aleph and the Tav, HaRishon (The First) and HaAcharon (The Last), HaReshit (The Beginning)...timeless excistence... and HaTachlit (The Ultimate).

Colossians 1:15
Verse Concepts
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.


Col 1:15 Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach is the demut (BERESHIS 1:26-2.7; Pp 2:6) of the invisible G-d, the Bechor [TEHILLIM 89:27], the Yoresh (Heir) of kol hanivrah (all creation),
Col 1:16 Because in Him...JESUS CREATOR.. were created all things in Shomayim and on Ha'Aretz, the visible and the nistar (hidden), whether thrones or dominions, whether rulers or authorities, all things through Him and for Him have been created. [TEHILLIM 33:6]
Hebrews 1:11-12
They will perish, but You remain;
And they all will become old like a garment,
And like a mantle You will roll them up;
Like a garment they will also be changed.
But You are the same,
And Your years will not come to an end.”


1 John 1:1-2
What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life— and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us—

John 1:1-2
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.

John 1:15
Verse Concepts
John *testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’”

Revelation 1:17-18
When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, “Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.

Revelation 2:8
Verse Concepts
“And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write:The first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life, says this:

Now, you need to look up the morphology of these words..Christ Jesus along with the Father and the Ruach HaKodesh did the "creating" and in NO wise was Jesus Inferior to the Father but equal and as God Jesus Is the CREATOR BEFORE anything came into being..

Literal Interpretation
Moral Interpretation
Allegorical Interpretation

Anagogical Interpretation

What are the different rules of hermeneutics?
As you can see, there are multiple approaches and disagreements about which branch of hermeneutics should be utilized, and we haven’t yet interpreted a single verse from the Bible! Unfortunately, it’s true that people can find anything to argue about. All of this may have you asking the question, ‘How do I integrate biblical hermeneutics?’

J.

Scripture can’t change a person, only an individual who seeks truth in faith in God; only God can change the person, J.
 

Johann

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Thomas when he touched Jesus said my Lord and my God, God was with Jesus (his name was Immanuel God with us) by the spirit and Thomas believed that Jesus was from above as he had exclaimed to the Pharisees back in his time.


I don’t subscribe to the trinity thing; with this is what I have proclaimed is all founded in the Bible itself, even the oldest text it will be there if you could read Greek and Hebrew but half of us can not.

The "Triune Theiotes" aside Matthew, as long as we can agree that Christ Jesus is King if kings and Lord of lords, the "I AM' the Alef and the Tav, the Creator and not being "created" Him crucified, Him resurrected, King, Priest Prophet and our great Apostle and that henceforth we know Jesus NOT after the flesh anymore since Christ is risen, that by Jesus, and through Jesus ALL things were created..can we agree Matthew?
J.
 

APAK

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Im tired of this debate major...
I try to simplify my questions so that a 12 year old can understand it and I want an answer that a 12 year old can comprehend, but the response is always the same.
They do everything to ignore my questions.
They dismiss the actions of Christ and what God actually said (this is my son) without even giving a reason.
They quote passages that have nothing to do with my questions.
They dismiss my "human rationale" and replace it with their rationale.
And I don't even touch on the fact that the trinity never gets mentioned in the bible, that it's all a creation of the RCC and has pagan roots cos i know someone will just blow up and have a hissy fit.

Can't be stuffed with it

Another thing that baffles me is this. The RCC can't even explain the trinity and they invented it. They call it a mystery. Yet these people claim to understand the trinity using their own knowledge... Ye sure.

And then there are the people that say God told them... Ye sure. I believe that is using the Lord's name in vain, for your own self.
I guessed as much as to why you might be silent....it is what it is, and so move on and still search and have discussions with people that are not so closed minded to some obvious truth that is staring at them. I would say as I apply it to myself as well, just stay on a solid foundation first and then work your way up from the bottoms up in your search for more truth in scripture. Scripture is meant to mesh with other scripture, not to used by a closed and rigid mind and use brute force. It is meant to be given with the guidance of the HS as intended. We have so many forcing together scripture passages with meanings that are far out there, like forcing pieces of a jig-saw puzzle together and they wonder why they cannot finish it and see the 'big picture.'..oh well
 
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TLHKAJ

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John 3:10-13
[10]Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
[11]Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
[12]If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
[13]And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
 
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Johann

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Scripture can’t change a person, only an individual who seeks truth in faith in God; only God can change the person, J.

I fully concur Matthew however it is only by the scriptures that that we can know our need for the living Christ Jesus and there is dunamis in the Scriptures, Perfect Tense.


THE WORD OF GOD
Law, BIBLE, THE; THE WORD OF GOD
Statutes, BIBLE, THE; THE WORD OF GOD
Truth, TRUTH
Gospel, GOSPEL
(2) Despised by the Foolish
--SEE, 2968
(3) The Book of the Ages
Psa_119:89; Psa_119:152; Isa_40:8; Mat_5:18; Mat_24:35; 1Pe_1:25
--SEE The Enduring, ENDURING
(4) Food for the Soul
Deu_8:3; Job_23:12; Psa_119:103; Jer_15:16; Eze_2:8; Eze_3:1
Mat_4:4; 1Pe_2:2
--SEE Spiritual Feasts, FOOD
Spiritual Food, FOOD
(5) Divinely Inspired
Jer_36:2; Eze_1:3; Act_1:16; Act_28:25; 2Ti_3:16; 2Pe_1:21
Rev_1:1; Rev_14:3
--SEE Inspiration, INSPIRATION, DIVINE
(6) Precepts Written in the Heart
Deu_6:6; Deu_11:18; Deu_30:14; Psa_119:11; Luk_2:51; Rom_10:8; Col_3:16
--SEE Law in the Heart, BIBLE, THE; THE WORD OF GOD
(7) Furnishes a Light in Darkness
Psa_19:8; Psa_119:105; Psa_119:130; Pro_6:23; 2Pe_1:19
(8) Loved by the Saints
Psa_119:47; Psa_119:72; Psa_119:82; Psa_119:97; Psa_119:140; Psa_119:163; Jer_15:16
(9) MIGHTY IN ITS INFLUENCE
A Devouring Flame
Jer_5:14
A Crushing Hammer
Jer_23:29
A Life-giving Force
Eze_37:7; Act_19:20
A Saving Power...see here Matthew..
Rom_1:16
A Defensive Weapon
Eph_6:17
A Probing Instrument
Heb_4:12
--SEE Words of Christ, WORDS OF CHRIST
& WORDS OF CHRIST
(10) A Blessing to Those Who Reverence it
Jos_1:8; Psa_19:11; Mat_7:24; Luk_11:28; Joh_5:24; Joh_8:31; Rev_1:3
(11) Purifies the Life
Psa_119:9; Joh_15:3; Joh_17:17; Eph_5:26; 1Pe_1:22
(12) WRITTEN WITH A PURPOSE
To Authenticate the Divinity of Christ

Joh_20:31
To give Hope to Men
Rom_15:4
To Relate Human Experience as a Warning
1Co_10:11
To give Knowledge of Eternal Life
1Jo_5:13
--SEE Aids to Faith, FAITH
(13) Read in the Great Congregation
Exo_24:7; Jos_8:34; Jer_36:8; Luk_4:16; Col_4:16
--SEE Law Read, BIBLE, THE; THE WORD OF GOD
Instruction given, INSTRUCTION
(14) The Standard of Faith and Duty
Pro_29:18; Isa_8:20; Joh_12:48; Gal_1:8; 1Th_2:13
(15) Its Words Sacred, not to be Altered...and there is a lot of this going on...
Deu_4:2; Deu_12:32; Pro_30:6; Rev_22:19
--SEE Reverence (1), REVERENCE
(16) The Study of Enjoined
Deu_17:19; Isa_34:16; Joh_5:39; Act_17:11; Rom_15:4
--SEE Knowledge (3), KNOWLEDGE
Wisdom Sought, WISDOM
(17) Contains Seed-Corn for the Sower
Psa_126:6; Mar_4:14; Mar_4:15; 2Co_9:10
--SEE Spiritual Sowing, SOWING
(18) Absolutely Trustworthy
1Ki_8:56; Psa_93:5; Psa_111:7; Eze_12:25; Dan_9:12
Mat_5:18; Luk_21:33; Rom_4:16
--SEE Faithfulness, Divine, FAITHFULNESS
Fulfilment, PROPHECY
& PROPHECY
(19) Profitable for Instruction
Deu_4:10; Deu_11:19; 2Ch_17:9; Neh_8:13; Isa_2:3; Act_18:28
--SEE Instruction (2), INSTRUCTION
Law Read, BIBLE, THE; THE WORD OF GOD
(20) Ignorance of, Perilous
Mat_12:3; Mat_19:4; Mat_22:29; Joh_20:9; Act_13:27; 2Co_3:15
--SEE Spiritual Ignorance, IGNORANCE
(21) It Contains the Message to be Delivered
Jer_1:7; Jer_1:17; Jer_11:2; Eze_2:7; Eze_3:17; Act_5:20; Tit_2:15
--SEE Preaching (2), LEADERS
(22) Purity of
Psa_12:6; Psa_18:30; Psa_19:8; Psa_119:140; Pro_30:5; Isa_45:19
(B) THE LAW part of
(1) Ceremonial Abolished in Christ
Eph_2:15; Col_2:14; Heb_7:18; Heb_8:13; Heb_10:1; Heb_12:27
(2) Perfection of the Divine
Psa_19:7; Psa_119:142; Rom_7:12; Rom_7:14; 1Ti_1:8
(3) Keeping of Enjoined
Deu_17:19; Jos_23:6; 1Ch_22:12; Pro_28:7
--SEE Obedience (1), 2614
Book of the Law, GOD'S
Testimonies, TESTIMONIES
Words of Christ, WORDS OF CHRIST
(4) In the Heart
Psa_37:31; Psa_40:8; Jer_31:33; Jer_32:40; Rom_2:15; Rom_7:22; 2Co_3:3
Heb_8:10; Heb_10:16
--SEE 418
(5) Despised
2Ch_36:16; Psa_78:10; Isa_5:24; Isa_30:9; Jer_6:19; Jer_9:13
Hos_4:6; Amo_2:4; Mar_7:9
--SEE Instruction Despised, REJECTION of God and truth
Despisers, DESPISERS
(6) The Public Reading of
Deu_31:11; Jos_8:35; 2Ki_23:2; Neh_8:3; Neh_8:18; Neh_13:1; Jer_36:6
--SEE "Word" Read, BIBLE, THE; THE WORD OF GOD
(7) Impartiality of
Exo_12:49; Lev_24:22; Num_9:14; Num_15:16
--SEE Strangers (3), STRANGERS
(C) STATUTES contained in
(1) General References to
Exo_15:26; Lev_26:46; Deu_4:5; Deu_16:12; 1Ki_3:14; Psa_19:8; Psa_119:12; Psa_119:54
--SEE Commandments, BIBLE, THE; THE WORD OF GOD
(2) Perpetual, given to Israel
Lev_23:14; Lev_23:31; Lev_24:3; Lev_24:9; Num_18:11; Num_19:21
(D) COMMANDMENTS contained in
(1) General References to
Deu_6:6; Deu_11:8; Psa_19:8; Psa_119:6; Mat_15:3; Mat_22:38; 1Jo_5:3
(2) To be Kept
Exo_20:6; Deu_4:40; Deu_6:17; Deu_10:13; Deu_26:18; Jos_22:5; 1Ki_2:3
1Ki_6:12; 1Ki_8:58; 1Ki_11:38; 2Ki_17:13; 1Ch_28:8; 1Ch_29:19; Psa_78:7
Eze_44:24; Mat_19:17; 1Jo_5:3; Rev_14:12
--SEE Obedience (1), OBEDIENCE
Decalogue, DECALOGUE, THE
Tables of Stone, 3543
Words Kept, WORDS OF CHRIST

J.
 

MatthewG

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I fully concur Matthew however it is only by the scriptures that that we can know our need for the living Christ Jesus and there is dunamis in the Scriptures, Perfect Tense.


THE WORD OF GOD
Law, BIBLE, THE; THE WORD OF GOD
Statutes, BIBLE, THE; THE WORD OF GOD
Truth, TRUTH
Gospel, GOSPEL
(2) Despised by the Foolish
--SEE, 2968
(3) The Book of the Ages
Psa_119:89; Psa_119:152; Isa_40:8; Mat_5:18; Mat_24:35; 1Pe_1:25
--SEE The Enduring, ENDURING
(4) Food for the Soul
Deu_8:3; Job_23:12; Psa_119:103; Jer_15:16; Eze_2:8; Eze_3:1
Mat_4:4; 1Pe_2:2
--SEE Spiritual Feasts, FOOD
Spiritual Food, FOOD
(5) Divinely Inspired
Jer_36:2; Eze_1:3; Act_1:16; Act_28:25; 2Ti_3:16; 2Pe_1:21
Rev_1:1; Rev_14:3
--SEE Inspiration, INSPIRATION, DIVINE
(6) Precepts Written in the Heart
Deu_6:6; Deu_11:18; Deu_30:14; Psa_119:11; Luk_2:51; Rom_10:8; Col_3:16
--SEE Law in the Heart, BIBLE, THE; THE WORD OF GOD
(7) Furnishes a Light in Darkness
Psa_19:8; Psa_119:105; Psa_119:130; Pro_6:23; 2Pe_1:19
(8) Loved by the Saints
Psa_119:47; Psa_119:72; Psa_119:82; Psa_119:97; Psa_119:140; Psa_119:163; Jer_15:16
(9) MIGHTY IN ITS INFLUENCE
A Devouring Flame
Jer_5:14
A Crushing Hammer
Jer_23:29
A Life-giving Force
Eze_37:7; Act_19:20
A Saving Power...see here Matthew..
Rom_1:16
A Defensive Weapon
Eph_6:17
A Probing Instrument
Heb_4:12
--SEE Words of Christ, WORDS OF CHRIST
& WORDS OF CHRIST
(10) A Blessing to Those Who Reverence it
Jos_1:8; Psa_19:11; Mat_7:24; Luk_11:28; Joh_5:24; Joh_8:31; Rev_1:3
(11) Purifies the Life
Psa_119:9; Joh_15:3; Joh_17:17; Eph_5:26; 1Pe_1:22
(12) WRITTEN WITH A PURPOSE
To Authenticate the Divinity of Christ

Joh_20:31
To give Hope to Men
Rom_15:4
To Relate Human Experience as a Warning
1Co_10:11
To give Knowledge of Eternal Life
1Jo_5:13
--SEE Aids to Faith, FAITH
(13) Read in the Great Congregation
Exo_24:7; Jos_8:34; Jer_36:8; Luk_4:16; Col_4:16
--SEE Law Read, BIBLE, THE; THE WORD OF GOD
Instruction given, INSTRUCTION
(14) The Standard of Faith and Duty
Pro_29:18; Isa_8:20; Joh_12:48; Gal_1:8; 1Th_2:13
(15) Its Words Sacred, not to be Altered...and there is a lot of this going on...
Deu_4:2; Deu_12:32; Pro_30:6; Rev_22:19
--SEE Reverence (1), REVERENCE
(16) The Study of Enjoined
Deu_17:19; Isa_34:16; Joh_5:39; Act_17:11; Rom_15:4
--SEE Knowledge (3), KNOWLEDGE
Wisdom Sought, WISDOM
(17) Contains Seed-Corn for the Sower
Psa_126:6; Mar_4:14; Mar_4:15; 2Co_9:10
--SEE Spiritual Sowing, SOWING
(18) Absolutely Trustworthy
1Ki_8:56; Psa_93:5; Psa_111:7; Eze_12:25; Dan_9:12
Mat_5:18; Luk_21:33; Rom_4:16
--SEE Faithfulness, Divine, FAITHFULNESS
Fulfilment, PROPHECY
& PROPHECY
(19) Profitable for Instruction
Deu_4:10; Deu_11:19; 2Ch_17:9; Neh_8:13; Isa_2:3; Act_18:28
--SEE Instruction (2), INSTRUCTION
Law Read, BIBLE, THE; THE WORD OF GOD
(20) Ignorance of, Perilous
Mat_12:3; Mat_19:4; Mat_22:29; Joh_20:9; Act_13:27; 2Co_3:15
--SEE Spiritual Ignorance, IGNORANCE
(21) It Contains the Message to be Delivered
Jer_1:7; Jer_1:17; Jer_11:2; Eze_2:7; Eze_3:17; Act_5:20; Tit_2:15
--SEE Preaching (2), LEADERS
(22) Purity of
Psa_12:6; Psa_18:30; Psa_19:8; Psa_119:140; Pro_30:5; Isa_45:19
(B) THE LAW part of
(1) Ceremonial Abolished in Christ
Eph_2:15; Col_2:14; Heb_7:18; Heb_8:13; Heb_10:1; Heb_12:27
(2) Perfection of the Divine
Psa_19:7; Psa_119:142; Rom_7:12; Rom_7:14; 1Ti_1:8
(3) Keeping of Enjoined
Deu_17:19; Jos_23:6; 1Ch_22:12; Pro_28:7
--SEE Obedience (1), 2614
Book of the Law, GOD'S
Testimonies, TESTIMONIES
Words of Christ, WORDS OF CHRIST
(4) In the Heart
Psa_37:31; Psa_40:8; Jer_31:33; Jer_32:40; Rom_2:15; Rom_7:22; 2Co_3:3
Heb_8:10; Heb_10:16
--SEE 418
(5) Despised
2Ch_36:16; Psa_78:10; Isa_5:24; Isa_30:9; Jer_6:19; Jer_9:13
Hos_4:6; Amo_2:4; Mar_7:9
--SEE Instruction Despised, REJECTION of God and truth
Despisers, DESPISERS
(6) The Public Reading of
Deu_31:11; Jos_8:35; 2Ki_23:2; Neh_8:3; Neh_8:18; Neh_13:1; Jer_36:6
--SEE "Word" Read, BIBLE, THE; THE WORD OF GOD
(7) Impartiality of
Exo_12:49; Lev_24:22; Num_9:14; Num_15:16
--SEE Strangers (3), STRANGERS
(C) STATUTES contained in
(1) General References to
Exo_15:26; Lev_26:46; Deu_4:5; Deu_16:12; 1Ki_3:14; Psa_19:8; Psa_119:12; Psa_119:54
--SEE Commandments, BIBLE, THE; THE WORD OF GOD
(2) Perpetual, given to Israel
Lev_23:14; Lev_23:31; Lev_24:3; Lev_24:9; Num_18:11; Num_19:21
(D) COMMANDMENTS contained in
(1) General References to
Deu_6:6; Deu_11:8; Psa_19:8; Psa_119:6; Mat_15:3; Mat_22:38; 1Jo_5:3
(2) To be Kept
Exo_20:6; Deu_4:40; Deu_6:17; Deu_10:13; Deu_26:18; Jos_22:5; 1Ki_2:3
1Ki_6:12; 1Ki_8:58; 1Ki_11:38; 2Ki_17:13; 1Ch_28:8; 1Ch_29:19; Psa_78:7
Eze_44:24; Mat_19:17; 1Jo_5:3; Rev_14:12
--SEE Obedience (1), OBEDIENCE
Decalogue, DECALOGUE, THE
Tables of Stone, 3543
Words Kept, WORDS OF CHRIST

J.

No one really likes to read the scriptures, especially if they are shared in such a way here it has to be studied, just knowing and quoting doesn’t have any effect. On the contrary Bible studies are a different story going verse by verse and actually taking in the milk, and eating the steak.

Most just like milk, I’m saved and that is it,

I don’t have to do anything else, I’m saved and that is it.

One needs to grow and study and digest the word.

Love you.
 
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MatthewG

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Or they will say the Bible says it and that it,

no growing no questioning no understanding.

the Bible says it and that is it.
 

Truther

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Truth I am going to ask you a serious question, and would appreciate a serious answer. As you know Jesus promoted another God, but lets say you are right. We know satan is a liar, and a deceiver, if Jesus is God, then he is obviously the same, he deceived us into thinking there is a God who existed in heaven Jn 4:24; Mat 3:17. But the real issue is and my question, if Jesus is God then he lied at Mk 10:40 and 13:32, so what hope could we have if Jesus our God is a liar?

I do hope you answer it sir 2 Tim 4:5, because I have asked this to many who promote Jesus as God, but rarely do I receive an answer, but at least I have made the point to you sir.
Robert.

I am and was serious, but I try to break up the monotony sometimes.

I know exactly what you are saying because in Rev 3, Jesus is in heaven saying that he has a God 4 times in a single verse.

That is like reading a verse that Jesus would say verily, verily, verily, verily....(It would be the most important verse in the Bible to observe).

So, with that said, Jesus has a God right now, but is declared God too.

How do we fix this?

The only way to fix this is to realize that Jesus and his disciples taught that the lone God was inside Jesus via the Holy Ghost in Luke 4:1, and the lone God is now completely inside Jesus since he was resurrected from death by his God.

This 2nd infilling is unique though, because everything that God consists of is encapsulated INSIDE the omnipresent human spirit body of Jesus, causing Jesus to be the express image of the(his) invisible lone God, inside him.

AKA, Jesus is that lone God by default.

AKA, God "lord's" over us through Jesus now.

God speaks to and works for us THROUGH Jesus now, which makes the individual man, Jesus, God.

Jesus is not the God/man, but God is inside the man, Jesus.

This is the original teaching of the NT.

The RCC twisted us all into thinking the God/man thing.
 
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Johann

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John 3:10-13
[10]Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
[11]Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
[12]If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
[13]And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

...and "we speak that we do know" the "us" accounts in Genesis, Father, Son and Holy Spirit..
J.
 
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face2face

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Sorry for butting in, I take the literal approach, no question about it,

I gathered as much from our interactions and consistent with most in this forum. I liken it to Jesus engaging with Nicodemus who thought being born again was to reenter his mother womb. Some passages are easily interpreted as literal, while others are more difficult and require certain keys to unlock their meaning.

Peshat
‘Peshat’ derives from a Hebrew root meaning ‘simple’. This initial level of understanding is the plain, simple, obvious, literal, intended, explicit meaning of the text. All Scripture should be read at the peshat level first. Furthermore, any other interpretations of the text should never contradict the peshat.
J.

Fundamentalists are all guilty of interpreting Scripture through a hyper literal reading of the text. Your Peshat was created by the medieval Jewish commentator Rashi who came under a lot of criticism because of his failure to be able to interpret more difficult text. Judaism & Roman Catholicism are good examples of this.

Having said that, your example of Gen 1:7 was a good one...its just a shame you are not able to practice this methodology within our discussions.

The Pharisee's suffered terribly from what you know as Peshat - consistently they approached the Lord's teaching literally and never came to an understanding of his message. It was a flawed approach! The natural mind cannot discern spiritual things and its of interest that the natural mind always tries to comprehend spiritual things in a literal way...always ends badly (John 8 is a good example).

So lets do a test shall we?

Keeping in line with the OP, as to not go off topic lets consider the words of Jesus. I am interested in how you apply a literal interpretation; can you provide an alternative reading of the text? Are you open minded enough to question the notions you attach to the text and what supporting verses do you think help those notions? Please don't screen dump other works...just plainly speak to the text and see where it leads.

John 10:30
 
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