The Insanity of the "right" to have guns!

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Bible Highlighter

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@Bible Highlighter

I knew Desmond Doss, personally, and what you say about him here is true:

"Besides, there was one Christian I know of who has even served in the military who did not take up a weapon to protect himself, and he still put his life on the line to save many lives."

But this is, quite frankly, a rather blatant falsehood:

"Granted, he was not a perfect man. He did hold to the error of the SDA Church in that says we must keep all of the 613 Old Testament Law of Moses (like keeping the Saturday Sabbath, etcetera; For the Old Law is no more because we are not under the Old Covenant contract anymore according to Scripture. Believers are to follow the commands of Jesus and His followers in the pages of the New Testament, instead)."

It's odd that it seems important to you to qualify your positive statement about him with your understanding that he wasn't perfect because he espoused error. As if being something other than Seventh-day Adventist would have made him perfect. After all, the only way you could judge him less-than-perfect would be in the same way that all men are not perfect—because all have sinned...

...or that this had anything to do with the topic of the thread at all.

(But since you brought it up:

The "Saturday Sabbath" is not a "law of Moses." It is the law of God and was etched in stone in a fearful display at Sinai by the finger of God Himself. Until about 50 years ago, virtually no one disputed this—not even unbelievers. There is only one Sabbath—the seventh day of the week as stated plainly within the commandment, and as is substantially evidenced by the dozens of languages the world over that use some form of the word "Sabbath" for the day we call "Saturday." The old covenant was never meant to be a complete system of redemption. It never saved anyone. Only the New or Everlasting Covenant has the power to do so.)


I met Brother Desmond (as he preferred to be called—he didn't care much for "Sir" or "Mr. Doss") in the early '90s when he made an appearance at a denominational convention I was also attending (I had always hoped to meet him—one of the nice things about being a Seventh-day Adventist is that those who are also high-profile, so to speak, are always willing to make themselves available to common people). He was gracious enough to talk with me for about 20 minutes. I ran into him several times after that, and we also spoke by telephone several times later that year when I was considering becoming a chaplain in the Army. Both he and a serving chaplain told me that the challenges facing a Seventh-day Adventist believer in the military were not something that would be wise to voluntarily subject oneself to in a peacetime environment. And since I had served 4 years in the Air Force long before becoming a Seventh-day Adventist, I couldn't bring a reasonable argument against their advice.

Doss was a member in good standing of the worldwide Seventh-day Adventist church until the day he died and never, during his entire life, did he believe or teach that the "Mitzvot" was incumbent upon Christians. The "Mitzvot" is not even without controversy within Judaism itself. And while the Seventh-day Adventist church does teach that some of the Old Testament laws (in addition to those of the Decalogue) are not without holy merit (as do non-Adventists—Leviticus 18:22 comes to mind) we also, as do most Christians, believe that the 1050 commands given in the New Testament are to be obeyed by Christians as well. Unless one believes we're not "under" that law, either.

I'd be interested to see if you could provide some documentation for this "613" claim you've made. You won't find it at Adventist.org or any other official website of the church.

It’s been a long time since I debated an SDA Christian. I try to stay away from such discussions because of Titus 3:9. So my apologies for mischaracterizing the beliefs of Seventh Day Adventists in that they believe they must keep all 613 Laws of Moses. I do recall now one SDA Christian I talked with on another forum on how he said that the holy days are shadow laws or something like that. So my apologies on that one. It was not my intention to misrepresent what the SDA church believes (even though I disagree with many of their odd beliefs - like most SDA’s believing Ellen G. White was a prophetess).

Anyways, I imagine Desmond Doss is a great guy. But again, the error of the SDA church saying you have to keep the Saturday Sabbath, and possibly other Old Testament Laws is a grave error indeed. It’s trying to be justified by the Law of Moses and we cannot do so. A person can be nice, and even heroic, and they can still have false doctrine. I am sorry. The Bible makes it clear in many places that the Old Law is no more (Hebrews 8:13) (Acts of the Apostles 13:#9), and that the Sabbath is no longer a binding command upon New Covenant believers (Colossians 2:14-17). Paul warns that if one seeks to be justified by the Law, they have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4). It’s a very serious charge Paul makes. Yet, I have heard of Seventh Day Adventists mention how you must keep the Sabbath or your going to hell.
 
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Titus

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It’s been a long time since I debated an SDA Christian. I try to stay away from such discussions because of Titus 3:9. So my apologies for mischaracterizing the beliefs of Seventh Day Adventists in that they believe they must keep all 613 Laws of Moses. I do recall now one SDA Christian I talked with on another forum on how he said that the holy days are shadow laws or something like that. So my apologies on that one. It was not my intention to misrepresent what the SDA church believes (even though I disagree with many of their odd beliefs).

Anyways, I imagine Desmond Doss is a great guy. But again, the error of the SDA church saying you have to keep the Saturday Sabbath, and other possibly other Old Testament Laws is a grave error indeed. It’s trying to be justified by the Law of Moses and we cannot do so. A person can be nice, and even heroic, and they can still have false doctrine. I am sorry. The Bible makes it clear in many places that the Old Law is no more (Hebrews 8:13) (Acts of the Apostles 13:#9), and that the Sabbath is no longer a binding command upon New Covenant believers (Colossians 2:14-17).

Titus 3:9 does not apply to those who are lost.
Teaching SDA the true gospel of Jesus Christ is an obligation.

Galatians 3:10,
-for as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, TO DO THEM.

Love is to tell those who are cursed they must stop the sin of binding the law of Moses on folks today.
No one under the curse can be saved.
 

Enoch111

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A violent bloodthirsty God is what the devil wants people to believe in.
Never mind about the devil. Open your Bible and read it for yourself. God's grace co-exists with God's wrath. At the present time, wrath is being held back so that grace may be displayed.
 

Bible Highlighter

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Titus 3:9 does not apply to those who are lost.
Teaching SDA the true gospel of Jesus Christ is an obligation.

I believe Titus 3:9 is saying that we should not argue with those who want to keep the Old Jewish Laws.

Titus 3:9 NLT says:
“Do not get involved in foolish discussions about spiritual pedigrees or in quarrels and fights about obedience to Jewish laws. These things are useless and a waste of time.”

You said:
Galatians 3:10,
-for as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, TO DO THEM.

Love is to tell those who are cursed they must stop the sin of binding the law of Moses on folks today.
No one under the curse can be saved.

I agree on this point.
 

Titus

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I believe Titus 3:9 is saying that we should not argue with those who want to keep the Old Jewish Laws.

Titus 3:9 NLT says:
“Do not get involved in foolish discussions about spiritual pedigrees or in quarrels and fights about obedience to Jewish laws. These things are useless and a waste of time.”



I agree on this point.


You got to be kidding!

Galatians 5:1
 

BarneyFife

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Whatever!
Did I do any physical violence against you?
Stop making up false accusations Bible Highlighter!

As I already told you,
I would never use physical violence to prove a point.
You reported me to the administrators did you not?
I reported you. What you said to @Bible Highlighter made me physically ill. Your choice of words used to illustrate your point we're viscerally inappropriate.

You can doubtless justify to your own mind anything you choose to say. It is your way, I have noticed.

Perhaps you'd like me to give you my address so you can come over and brutalize my family. If it is not God's will that we should suffer such abuse, it will not happen. Of that I am quite certain.

I have been in extremely grave danger many times without having to resort to violence to be delivered. I used to be very physically violent toward bullies.

None of us are as free to do our own will as we imagine.

Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above:
 

ScottA

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Multiple people shot California church in Laguna Woods Orange County one person detained casualties | Daily Mail Online

Buffalo shooter targeted Black neighborhood, officials say

These MASS murders, and MANY more that we see on a regular basis, shows that it is both UNBIBLICAL and UNCHRISTIAN for anyone, especially if the are followers of the Lord Jesus Christ, to own any form of weapon!

The US Constitution that allows for this is VERY WRONG!
No, but rather:

Ecclesiastes 3
To everything there is a season,
A time for every purpose under heaven:

2 A time to be born,
And a time to die;
A time to plant,
And a time to pluck what is planted;
3 A time to kill,
And a time to heal;
A time to break down,
And a time to build up;
4 A time to weep,
And a time to laugh;
A time to mourn,
And a time to dance;
5 A time to cast away stones,
And a time to gather stones;
A time to embrace,
And a time to refrain from embracing;
6 A time to gain,
And a time to lose;
A time to keep,
And a time to throw away;
7 A time to tear,
And a time to sew;
A time to keep silence,
And a time to speak;
8 A time to love,
And a time to hate;
A time of war,
And a time of peace.


Luke 22:36
Then He said to them, “But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one.​
 

Bible Highlighter

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Whatever!
Did I do any physical violence against you?
Stop making up false accusations Bible Highlighter!

Not a false accusation. You threatened me, and you did not suggest you were joking.
I actually thought you might be crazy enough to do what you said.
Then you turned around the next day and said you would never do that.
So this means you were lying. Your words were not true to what you originally said.

You said:
As I already told you,
I would never use physical violence to prove a point.

But you threaten them with words to make them think that you would do that (Which is wrong).

You said:
You reported me to the administrators did you not?

Yes, because what you did was unacceptable. I rarely report anyone but in this case, you crossed a line in threatening me and my family (and you gave no indication you were joking or not serious).
 
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Titus

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Not a false accusation. You threatened me, and you did not suggest you were joking.
I actually thought you might be crazy enough to do what you said.
Then you turned around the next day and said you would never do that.
So this means you were lying. Your words were not true to what you originally said.



But you threaten them with words to make them think that you would do that (Which is wrong).



Yes, because what you did was unacceptable. I rare report anyone but in this case, you crossed a line in threatening me and my family (and you gave no indication you were joking or not serious).

This is not true.
I did not threaten you.
Since you do not have enough sense to know when someone is talking in hypotheticals.
I will make sure and let you know not to take a hypothetical literally.
 

BarneyFife

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It’s been a long time since I debated an SDA Christian. I try to stay away from such discussions because of Titus 3:9. So my apologies for mischaracterizing the beliefs of Seventh Day Adventists in that they believe they must keep all 613 Laws of Moses. I do recall now one SDA Christian I talked with on another forum on how he said that the holy days are shadow laws or something like that. So my apologies on that one. It was not my intention to misrepresent what the SDA church believes (even though I disagree with many of their odd beliefs - like most SDA’s believing Ellen G. White was a prophetess).

Anyways, I imagine Desmond Doss is a great guy. But again, the error of the SDA church saying you have to keep the Saturday Sabbath, and possibly other Old Testament Laws is a grave error indeed. It’s trying to be justified by the Law of Moses and we cannot do so. A person can be nice, and even heroic, and they can still have false doctrine. I am sorry. The Bible makes it clear in many places that the Old Law is no more (Hebrews 8:13) (Acts of the Apostles 13:#9), and that the Sabbath is no longer a binding command upon New Covenant believers (Colossians 2:14-17). Paul warns that if one seeks to be justified by the Law, they have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4). It’s a very serious charge Paul makes. Yet, I have heard of Seventh Day Adventists mention how you must keep the Sabbath or your going to hell.
Unfortunately the apology is overshadowed by the other misinformation. No amount of commandment-keeping can atone for a man's sin and many people will be saved who have never kept a Seventh-day Sabbath. But then I'm used to this kind of misrepresentation.
 

Titus

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many people will be saved who have never kept a Seventh-day Sabbath. But then I'm used to this kind of misrepresentation.

This is true,
But unfortunately no one who binds the old law on anyone today will not be cursed,
Galatians 5:1,
Galatians 3:10
 

ByGraceThroughFaith

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No, but rather:

Ecclesiastes 3
To everything there is a season,
A time for every purpose under heaven:

2 A time to be born,
And a time to die;
A time to plant,
And a time to pluck what is planted;
3 A time to kill,
And a time to heal;
A time to break down,
And a time to build up;
4 A time to weep,
And a time to laugh;
A time to mourn,
And a time to dance;
5 A time to cast away stones,
And a time to gather stones;
A time to embrace,
And a time to refrain from embracing;
6 A time to gain,
And a time to lose;
A time to keep,
And a time to throw away;
7 A time to tear,
And a time to sew;
A time to keep silence,
And a time to speak;
8 A time to love,
And a time to hate;
A time of war,
And a time of peace.


Luke 22:36
Then He said to them, “But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one.​

Every day, 321 people are shot in the United States

Key Statistics
 

Bible Highlighter

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You certainly are not guided by His word on self-defense and lethal force!
You teach unbiblical pacifism.
Might as well be a Buddhist

Again, there is a difference between Pacifism and Nonresistance.

Notice definition #1 below in the 1913 Webster’s Dictionary.

It says that the doctrine that ALL VIOLENCE is unjustifiable.

I don’t believe that because I believe God commanded the Israelites to destroy their enemies, and I believe that the Father offered His Son as a sacrifice (violence) to save mankind, and I believe the Lord will return a second time to attack the nations in order to bring in a world of peace.

363406_954236f65ac565e32c3d8f60193d171b.png


Source:
pacifism | Definition of pacifism by Webster's Online Dictionary

I believe in Nonresistance.

It is defined as the practice of not resisting violence by force. See the highlighted definition below.

363404_3c4d6639209073ff7b2dd38a300be0ae.png


Source:
Definition of NONRESISTANCE

In either case, Pacifism is clearly not biblical, but our Lord and His followers telling us to not respond in violence is taught in the New Testament.
I think the best term would be “Temporal Non-Resistance.”
 

Jim B

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Again, there is a difference between Pacifism and Nonresistance.

Notice definition #1 below in the 1913 Webster’s Dictionary.

It says that the doctrine that ALL VIOLENCE is unjustifiable.

I don’t believe that because I believe God commanded the Israelites to destroy their enemies, and I believe that the Father offered His Son as a sacrifice (violence) to save mankind, and I believe the Lord will return a second time to attack the nations in order to bring in a world of peace.

363406_954236f65ac565e32c3d8f60193d171b.png


Source:
pacifism | Definition of pacifism by Webster's Online Dictionary

I believe in Nonresistance.

It is defined as the practice of not resisting violence by force. See the highlighted definition below.

363404_3c4d6639209073ff7b2dd38a300be0ae.png


Source:
Definition of NONRESISTANCE

In either case, Pacifism is clearly not biblical, but our Lord and His followers telling us to not respond in violence is taught in the New Testament.
I think the best term would be “Temporal Non-Resistance.”

The best term is Matthew 5:38-39, " “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, do not resist the evildoer. But whoever strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other to him as well." or more simply, " Jesus said to him, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. The second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the law and the prophets depend on these two commandments.” Matthew 22:37-40

Why didn't Jesus put up any armed resistance? Matthew 26:51-53, "But one of those with Jesus grabbed his sword, drew it out, and struck the high priest’s slave, cutting off his ear. Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back in its place! For all who take hold of the sword will die by the sword. Or do you think that I cannot call on my Father, and that he would send me more than twelve legions of angels right now?"
 

BarneyFife

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Titus 3:9 does not apply to those who are lost.
Teaching SDA the true gospel of Jesus Christ is an obligation.
Lovely, just lovely. Make your own rules. You're the boss.

Pay no attention to the ones you agreed to when you signed up:

"[*]Do not state or imply that another member or group of members who have identified themselves as Christian are not Christians. If there is an issue where a member seems to have circumvented the basic tenants of the faith in order to join the community, please privately contact the Christianity Board Team to voice your concern."

From: Christianity Board Forum Rules

Nice little dismissive slur
Now you know I was not being literal.
Probably why I said, "to illustrate your point." I never said your illustration was literal.
So you can calm down and feel safe.
I'll use my own judgment as to when it is appropriate to be alarmed.
I've never felt so safe in all my life.
You may feel safe in the assurance that you have not intimidated me in the slightest.
I abhor violence. I can scarcely believe I survived all the violence of my youth.
God was watching over me.
This is true,
Thank you for your affirmation.
But unfortunately no one who binds the old law on anyone today will not be cursed,
I wouldn't know about that. You see, I have no recollection of ever having bound anyone with anything, except maybe my children into their vehicle safety seats.
Thank you for the Scripture references; they are very edifying.
 

quietthinker

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I think you meant Mat 5:39 CJB But I tell you not to stand up against someone who does you wrong. On the contrary, if someone hits you on the right cheek, let him hit you on the left cheek too!

You are falsely comparing as equal revenge with avenge. Acting to protect innocent life is not the same as seeking revenge.

Also, you are falsely equating a mere insult to a life threatening danger. A 'slap on the cheek' is a metaphor for an insult.
The God of Jesus put himself on display. He revealed his responses in the face of of threat. This is how God is. God is not like man who cares only for himself.....God gives his life for his enemies.
 

Mantis

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I think Christ was basically people to love each other and try to live peaceably with all men. That’s what turn the other cheek is about. To try not to add to the conflict. No one has to purchase a gun and the chances of that person being shot from a responsible gun owner is pretty much non existent. But when you live in a world with bad guys it would be prudent to protect yourself. The world is going down fast lol.
 
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