The Nature of Jesus Christ

[marks]

So you agree the sinful nature is 'surgically removed' as Wuest wrote?
J.

We've been removed.

We've died as beings who are contained in fleshy bodies with fleshy brains (made of flesh). We've become alive as spirit beings, new creatures, and we still live in our fleshy bodies, but we are NOT the same Adamic humanity, we are a new humanity in Christ.

When He comes, when we are resurrected, we will be fully new, that is, including our body also, when we will no longer have to contend with the corruption of sin for the control of of body, the mind, the mouth, the hands, so forth.

The body remains, it's passions remain, and we have to learn to only fulfill those body desires that in doing so glorify God. Many body desires are fine, food, sleep, etc. Too much food, too much sleep, the list begins there, and includes all the works of flesh the Bible describes.

But we are removed into Christ, where, if we do not yield control to the old man, we will serve God doing righteousness.

When we commit sins, it's because we've forgotten we've been cleansed of sin, which is deceptive lust of the flesh. It's not our desire, its a fleshy desire.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I just want to add, if there is a thing such as sinless perfection then there is no need for progressive sanctification, and if there is no need for progressive sanctification, and have attained, in this life, absolute perfection, then it stands to reason we don't need a Savior since we can pull ourselves up by our own bootstraps @marks, no need for the Holy Spirit to intercede in our stead, no need for Christ Jesus to intercede on our stead.
Just thinking out loud
J.

Little children, I write these things to you that you may not sin. And if any sin, we have an advocate with the Father, ever Jesus Christ the just.

God gives us a live where we can avoid sin altogether, but the Biblical model is that this is something we tend to grow into. But I do not teach that as a hard and fast rule. I've experienced as God cut my flesh away from me in all of it's influence, allowing me to live what seemed a fully sanctified life for a time. Not long after I asked God to allow me to share this with others, that ended, and I've been learning how to retain that live through the exercise of faith.

This is what I've learned. When I trust that I am fully reconciled, and NEVER at odds with God again, I live with a clear conscience, trusting Him. I say "clear conscience" meaning, not aware of committing sins, but not to say "I'm sinless".

I'm becoming more consistent with this, but I'm not there yet.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I just want to add, if there is a thing such as sinless perfection then there is no need for progressive sanctification, and if there is no need for progressive sanctification, and have attained, in this life, absolute perfection, then it stands to reason we don't need a Savior since we can pull ourselves up by our own bootstraps @marks, no need for the Holy Spirit to intercede in our stead, no need for Christ Jesus to intercede on our stead.
Just thinking out loud
J.

I think that God may bestow graces and gifts of faith to enable some to live more consistently walking in the Spirit.

He gave me a gift of faith at one time that in a moment's time my flesh ceased to be an issue at all, and for several weeks I lived what seemed to me to be a fully sanctified life.

I discovered, though, that while my problems with the flesh had been solved, or so it seemed, I didn't have anything to help others with. "OH, I hope God does this for you too!" When I asked God to enable me to share this living this kind of life, shortly after that, it ended, and the flesh was back. But I couldn't forget of deny the reality of that experience.

I've since come to learn that this is what happens - living sanctified - when I put away from myself all thoughts of condemnation. That I embrace God my loving Creator as fully reconciled to Him. This just seems to release my heart in faith to trust Him, and the flesh seems to just go silent.

And the things of earth, they grow strangely dim, in the light of His glory and grace.

Much love!

 

[Johann]

I think that God may bestow graces and gifts of faith to enable some to live more consistently walking in the Spirit.

He gave me a gift of faith at one time that in a moment's time my flesh ceased to be an issue at all, and for several weeks I lived what seemed to me to be a fully sanctified life.

I discovered, though, that while my problems with the flesh had been solved, or so it seemed, I didn't have anything to help others with. "OH, I hope God does this for you too!" When I asked God to enable me to share this living this kind of life, shortly after that, it ended, and the flesh was back. But I couldn't forget of deny the reality of that experience.

I've since come to learn that this is what happens - living sanctified - when I put away from myself all thoughts of condemnation. That I embrace God my loving Creator as fully reconciled to Him. This just seems to release my heart in faith to trust Him, and the flesh seems to just go silent.

And the things of earth, they grow strangely dim, in the light of His glory and grace.

Much love!

J.

 

[robert derrick]

Thanks, but my question wasn’t concerning separation from his body; my question: Was Jesus separated from God?
It may be a silly question, but I would be an extremely wealthy man if I had a $1 for every time I’ve heard someone say over the past 50+ years that “God died for our sins.”
I take it from your response that we’re in agreement that God didn’t die when Jesus did.

God didn't die for our sins. The Son did, not the Father nor the Holy Ghost.

The Word and Son died when His soul was separated from the Father and the Spirit, when He took our sins upon Himself. He knew what it was to be a sinner separate from the Spirit of God for three hours on the cross, and yet He still sinned not, by not reviling them that were reviling Him.

I’m sorry if I’ve misunderstood you. I thought we had agreed that Jesus was a human person. Apparently we didn’t. I’ll offer a clarification:

Me - Jesus was a human person.

You - Jesus was not a human person.

Trinitarianism - Jesus was not a human person. (Please see the trinitarian sources I quoted for documentation.)

I’m a Christian who embraces Jewish unitary monotheism. Jesus isn’t “fully human and fully God” in my theology; he is in trinitarian theology.

Your response to this post should answer that for us.

The confusion here is the error of talking about being fully 'human', which is man's physiological and quasi-theological name given for man.

Fully 'human' is meant as being a sinner, which is the false doctrine of being born with sin nature.

Jesus was fully a man come in the flesh just like any other man: He came by a woman's womb with mortal body, the only exception being the first Adam, whose body came by the Lord's hand from the dust.

And so he was fully man just like all other men: a living soul wrapped in mortal flesh. No one is a born sinner in this life. Only the soul that sins is a sinner worthy of death from God.

He was also the Word and God made flesh: His soul was not created living, but He is the living Soul and eternal Being that creates all souls good and alive from the womb.

He was different from all other men also, in that He did not sin in heart nor in body, though we was separated and dead to God by our sins.

 

[theefaith]

No creeds for me, Christ Jesus, Abba, the Spirit and my Bible
J.

do you have a personal covenant or are you in the communion of saints?

do you need to obey Christ, the spirit and the Bible?


Unity of faith!


“Bible alone” is the cos of division;

Not the Bible or the Bible and the teaching authority of Christ in His church founded on Peter and his successors! Matt 16:18-19

Who is the arbiter of truth!

You can decide.
You can decide what is true.
You can decide what is truth.
You can decide right and wrong.

Not one of these are found in scripture!

Found in scripture!
Taught is found 79 times
Instructed is found 19
Instruction is found 33


Jn 14:6 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Lk 1:4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Acts 8:31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

Colossians 2:7
Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught…

Matt 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

1 Tim 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

 

[theefaith]

Spiritual Fathers have care for our souls!

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Jn 21:17 feed my sheep:

Heb 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they care for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

1 Tim 1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you

1 John 2
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.

That makes Paul and John spiritual fathers, pastors of our souls!

Obedience of the faithful Christians or spiritual anarchy of the heretical fundamentalists!


————


Spiritual Fathers (apostles) have care for our souls!

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Jn 21:17 feed my sheep:

Heb 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they care for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

1 Tim 1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you

1 John 2
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.

That makes Paul and John spiritual fathers, pastors of our souls!

 

[Johann]

do you have a personal covenant or are you in the communion of saints?

do you need to obey Christ, the spirit and the Bible?


Unity of faith!


“Bible alone” is the cos of division;

Not the Bible or the Bible and the teaching authority of Christ in His church founded on Peter and his successors! Matt 16:18-19

Who is the arbiter of truth!

You can decide.
You can decide what is true.
You can decide what is truth.
You can decide right and wrong.

Not one of these are found in scripture!

Found in scripture!
Taught is found 79 times
Instructed is found 19
Instruction is found 33


Jn 14:6 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Lk 1:4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Acts 8:31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

Colossians 2:7
Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught…

Matt 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

1 Tim 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Where to or three are gathered in my name..there is the ekklesia.
J.

 

[Matthias]

So I'm curious . . . I've seen this "human person" argument in Catholic teaching. You call it "historical orthodox", do you equate these? That the Catholic doctrine is what is "historically orthodox"?

Much love!

Yes, from Church history - the Council of Chalcedon (451). Most Protestant denominations also accept what was decided there.

You used a phrase which caught my attention - “biblical trinitarianism”.

I don’t hear it often but when I do it is invariably used by Protestants.

Edmund Fortman, a Catholic writer, uses a similar phrase - “elemental trinitarianism” - but I don’t think you would find that amenable. Protestants have to find the Trinity in scripture - sola scriptura - and typically see it there from Genesis to Revelation, as plain as the nose on your face; Catholics don’t - they find it taught by the Magestetium and trace it’s development in post-biblical times.

”[The NT writers] give us no formal or formulated doctrine of the Trinity, no explicit teaching that in one God there are three co-equal divine persons. But they do give us an elemental trinitarianism, the data from which such a formal doctrine of the Triune God may be formulated.”

(Edmund J. Fortman, The Triune God, p. xvi)

”Elemental trinitarianism” isn’t the doctrine of the Trinity.

Fortman is as hardcore trinitarian as they come. He isn’t denying the validity of the doctrine of the Trinity; he’s acknowledging that the Church developed the doctrine, over a period of several centuries, from various statements made by the NT writers. He’s well aware, as may be seen by other quotes from his book, that the NT writers weren’t the ones who developed the doctrine. He concedes that they were unitarian in their belief.

 

[farouk]

Yes. The Council of Nicaea (325) and the Council of Chalcedon (451). Most Protestant denominations also accept what was decided there.

You used a phrase which caught my attention - “biblical trinitarianism”.

I don’t hear it often but when I do it is invariably used by Protestants.

Edmund Fortman, a Catholic writer, uses a similar phrase - “elemental trinitarianism” - but I don’t think you would find that amenable. Protestants have to find the Trinity in scripture - sola scriptura - and typically see it there from Genesis to Revelation, as plain as the nose on your face; Catholics don’t.

”[The NT writers] give us no formal or formulated doctrine of the Trinity, no explicit teaching that in one God there are three co-equal divine persons. But they do give us an elemental trinitarianism, the data from which such a formal doctrine of the Triune God may be formulated.”

(Edmund J. Fortman, The Triune God, p. xvi)

”Elemental trinitarianism” isn’t the doctrine of the Trinity.

Fortman is as hardcore trinitarian as they come. He isn’t denying the validity of the doctrine of the Trinity; he’s acknowledging that the Church developed the doctrine, over a period of several centuries, from various statements made by the NT writers. He’s well aware, as may be seen by other quotes from his book, that the NT writers weren’t the ones who developed the doctrine. He concedes that they were unitarian in their belief.

God in Three Persons is not a truth for which to thank ecclesiastical circles. It is clearly in the Scriptures.

 

[Matthias]

God in Three Persons is not a truth for which to thank ecclesiastical circles. It is clearly in the Scriptures.

From Genesis to Revelation, right? (That’s what I would have said when I was a trinitarian.)

 

[Matthias]

God didn't die for our sins. The Son did, not the Father nor the Holy Ghost.

The Word and Son died when His soul was separated from the Father and the Spirit, when He took our sins upon Himself. He knew what it was to be a sinner separate from the Spirit of God for three hours on the cross, and yet He still sinned not, by not reviling them that were reviling Him.




The confusion here is the error of talking about being fully 'human', which is man's physiological and quasi-theological name given for man.

Fully 'human' is meant as being a sinner, which is the false doctrine of being born with sin nature.

Jesus was fully a man come in the flesh just like any other man: He came by a woman's womb with mortal body, the only exception being the first Adam, whose body came by the Lord's hand from the dust.

And so he was fully man just like all other men: a living soul wrapped in mortal flesh. No one is a born sinner in this life. Only the soul that sins is a sinner worthy of death from God.

He was also the Word and God made flesh: His soul was not created living, but He is the living Soul and eternal Being that creates all souls good and alive from the womb.

He was different from all other men also, in that He did not sin in heart nor in body, though we was separated and dead to God by our sins.

Do you believe in the Virgin Birth of Jesus?

 

[farouk]

From Genesis to Revelation, right? (That’s what I would have said when I was a trinitarian.)

In all its fullness, God in Three Persons is especially revealed in the NT. End of Matthew 28; Romans 8; John's First Epistle, etc.

 

[marks]

”Elemental trinitarianism” isn’t the doctrine of the Trinity.

I don't really get into this stuff.

When I say, "Biblical Trinitarianism", what I really mean is that I uphold the saying of the Bible, and I find them to show me that God the Father, and God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, each are God, and there is One God.

I don't need a council to tell me that, or a catechism, the Bible is sufficient to tell me these things.

I see those passages which tell me these truths, without other commentary. Just reading the Bible.

Much love!

 

[Matthias]

I don't really get into this stuff.

When I say, "Biblical Trinitarianism", what I really mean is that I uphold the saying of the Bible, and I find them to show me that God the Father, and God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, each are God, and there is One God.

I don't need a council to tell me that, or a catechism, the Bible is sufficient to tell me these things.

I see those passages which tell me these truths, without other commentary. Just reading the Bible.

Much love!

I understand. I used to also, but I don’t anymore. Why do you think that is?

 

[farouk]

I don't really get into this stuff.

When I say, "Biblical Trinitarianism", what I really mean is that I uphold the saying of the Bible, and I find them to show me that God the Father, and God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, each are God, and there is One God.

I don't need a council to tell me that, or a catechism, the Bible is sufficient to tell me these things.

I see those passages which tell me these truths, without other commentary. Just reading the Bible.

Much love!

@marks If it is supposedly not so significant that God in Three Persons is manifestly in Scripture (as indeed this glorious truth is), then this would be to elevate the word of ecclesiastics above the Word of God.

 

[marks]

I understand. I used to also, but I don’t anymore. Why do you think that is?

I'm not in the habit of presuming. You'll need to tell me.

Much love!

 

[Matthias]

In all its fullness, God in Three Persons is especially revealed in the NT. End of Matthew 28; Romans 8; John's First Epistle, etc.

Thanks. As I’ve commented elsewhere, I think every passage of scripture which bears on the subject of God must align with what Jesus himself believed / believes. I didn’t think like that when I was a trinitarian.

 

[Matthias]

I'm not in the habit of presuming. You'll need to tell me.

Much love!

I was preconditioned to see the Trinity in scripture.

 

[marks]

@marks If it is supposedly not so significant that God in Three Persons is manifestly in Scripture (as indeed this glorious truth is), then this would be to elevate the word of ecclesiastics above the Word of God.

Yes it would.

The more I study, the more I see that I can just accept what the Bible plainly says. And it plainly says that God purchased us with His Own blood. My Creator is my Savior!

Much love!