The Nature of Jesus Christ

[farouk]

Thanks. As I’ve commented elsewhere, I think every passage of scripture which bears on the subject of God must align with what Jesus himself believed / believes. I didn’t think like that when I was a trinitarian.

The equality of Father, Son and Holy Spirit is Scriptural.

 

[marks]

I was preconditioned to see the Trinity in scripture.

Maybe you tossed the baby with the bathwater.

Just a thought . . .

Much love!

 

[Matthias]

Maybe you tossed the baby with the bathwater.

Just a thought . . .

Much love!

I had that same thought early on. I’m satisfied that I didn’t.

There is only one God, and I believe he is the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Jesus, the apostles, etc.

 

[marks]

Thanks. As I’ve commented elsewhere, I think every passage of scripture which bears on the subject of God must align with what Jesus himself believed / believes. I didn’t think like that when I was a trinitarian.

All Scripture will harmonize if correctly understood, without doing violence to any of it's passages. All will retain their meaning.

I often see how someone's means to harmonize confusing passages is to claim that one of them doesn't actually mean what it says.

So for instance, in Acts,

Acts 20:27-28 KJV
27) For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
28) Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Do you agree that this is a correct translation? And if it is a correct translation, do you accept it's saying? Or no? Do you think there is a passage that tells us to interpret this passage in some other way than that God purchased the church with His Own blood?

Much love!

 

[Matthias]

The equality of Father, Son and Holy Spirit is Scriptural.

Jesus himself isn’t a trinitarian. His God is only one person, the Father. Is that something we can agree on?

 

[Matthias]

All Scripture will harmonize if correctly understood, without doing violence to any of it's passages. All will retain their meaning.

I often see how someone's means to harmonize confusing passages is to claim that one of them doesn't actually mean what it says.

So for instance, in Acts,

Acts 20:27-28 KJV
27) For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
28) Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Do you agree that this is a correct translation?

Yes.

And if it is a correct translation, do you accept it's saying? Or no?

Yes.

Do you think there is a passage that tells us to interpret this passage in some other way than that God purchased the church with His Own blood?

Much love!

The God of Jesus doesn’t have blood.

You need to remember that I believe Jesus is a human person. It was his shed blood, not his God’s, that purchased the Church.

I’m a Jewish unitary monotheist who believes Jesus of Nazareth is the promised Messiah.

 

[theefaith]

Where to or three are gathered in my name..there is the ekklesia.
J.

Only those who are already members of Christ and his church father in his name!

 

[marks]

The God of Jesus doesn’t have blood.

You need to remember that I believe Jesus is a human person. It was his shed blood, not his God’s, that purchased the Church.

That's the saying of the passage. You say yes, you accept it, then turn around and deny it.

How do you account for this passage? Was it a mistake?

Acts 20:27-28 KJV
27) For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
28) Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Aren't you more or less just declaring it wrong because you happen to believe otherwise?

The syntax likewise supports that we are talking about God's blood here. But you say not?

Much love!

 

[Episkopos]

Yes.



Yes.



The God of Jesus doesn’t have blood.

You need to remember that I believe Jesus is a human person. It was his shed blood, not his God’s, that purchased the Church.

I’m a Jewish unitary monotheist who believes Jesus of Nazareth is the promised Messiah.

"Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood."

It is assumed that the church was purchased with the SHED blood of Christ. But to add in the word "shed" is to add in a human interpretation. The Church is justified by the LIFE of Jesus not His death. The death of Jesus was for the whole world. The resurrection life (the eternal blood) is for those who enter INTO Him to live by the power of His life.

I find that the modern church relies on death...not life. But Jesus is risen! His lifeblood is meant to empower His Church to walk in a new and living way.

 

[Matthias]

“...it’s own conception of the Trinity was looked upon by the Fathers themselves as a combination of Jewish monotheism and pagan polytheism, except that to them this combination was a good combination; in fact, it was to them an ideal combination of what is best in Jewish monotheism and of what is best in pagan polytheism, and consequently they gloried in it and pointed to it as evidence of the truth of their belief. We have on this the testimony of Gregory of Nyssa - one of the great figures in the history of the philosophic formulation of the doctrine of the Trinity - and his words are repeated by John of Damascus - the last of the Church Fathers.

The Christian conception of God, argues Gregory of Nyssa, is neither the polytheism of the Greeks nor the monotheism of the Jews and consequently it must be true, for ’the truth passes in the mean between these two conceptions, destroying each heresy, and yet, accepting what is useful to it from each. The Jewish dogma is destroyed by the acceptance of the Word and by the belief in the Spirit, while the polytheistic error of the Greek school is made to vanish by the unity of the nature abrogating this imagination of plurality.’”

(Henry Austryn Wolfson, The Philosophy of the Church Fathers, Vol. I, pp. 362-363, Second Edition, Revised)

Mine is the monotheism of the Jews.

This is what the Church did, according to one of the architects of the doctrine of the Trinity, to the Jewish unitary monotheism of the earliest Christians.

 

[marks]

The Church is justified by the LIFE of Jesus not His death.

Acts 20:27-28 KJV
27) For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
28) Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Be careful of subtle changes.

Much love!

 

[Johann]

Only those who are already members of Christ and his church father in his name!

You can be a member and still living a carnal, sinful, habitual style of life.
J.

 

[marks]

Mine is the monotheism of the Jews.

And because the Jews couldn't tolerate the idea that Jesus, a man, made Himself out to be God, they killed Him. Right?

John 19:7 KJV
7) The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

John 10:30-39 KJV
30) I and my Father are one.
31) Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32) Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33) The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34) Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35) If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36) Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37) If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38) But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
39) Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,

Much love!

 

[marks]

I find that the modern church relies on death...not life.

"the modern church" is a rather large brush to paint with, don't you think? Are you a part of the church yourself?

Much love!

 

[Episkopos]

“...it’s own conception of the Trinity was looked upon by the Fathers themselves as a combination of Jewish monotheism and pagan polytheism, except that to them this combination was a good combination; in fact, it was to them an ideal combination of what is best in Jewish monotheism and of what is best in pagan polytheism, and consequently they gloried in it and pointed to it as evidence of the truth of their belief. We have on this the testimony of Gregory of Nyssa - one of the great figures in the history of the philosophic formulation of the doctrine of the Trinity - and his words are repeated by John of Damascus - the last of the Church Fathers.

The Christian conception of God, argues Gregory of Nyssa, is neither the polytheism of the Greeks nor the monotheism of the Jews and consequently it must be true, for ’the truth passes in the mean between these two conceptions, destroying each heresy, and yet, accepting what is useful to it from each. The Jewish dogma is destroyed by the acceptance of the Word and by the belief in the Spirit, while the polytheistic error of the Greek school is made to vanish by the unity of the nature abrogating this imagination of plurality.’”

(Henry Austryn Wolfson, The Philosophy of the Church Fathers, Vol. I, pp. 362-363, Second Edition, Revised)

Mine is the monotheism of the Jews.

This is what the Church did, according to one of the architects of the doctrine of the Trinity, to the Jewish unitary monotheism of the earliest Christians.

The early Jewish Christians ended up denying Christ as God...and so were lost to history. Likewise those who saw Jesus as ONLY God (and not human) also were lost to history. The ONLY reason why the Trinity idea took root is because it places divinity and Godship on both Father and Son. The fact that they committed the error of making God's own Spirit to be a separate person from Him just shows that we humans cannot strike a good balance in our dealings...With the coming of Jesus we add 1 Father and 1 Son and somehow end up with 3.

We are only human after all.

 

[Matthias]

That's the saying of the passage. You say yes, you accept it, then turn around and deny it.

How do you account for this passage? Was it a mistake?

Acts 20:27-28 KJV
27) For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
28) Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Aren't you more or less just declaring it wrong because you happen to believe otherwise?

The syntax likewise supports that we are talking about God's blood here. But you say not?

Much love!

You’ve probably heard me say that I believe “Jesus isn’t God and Jesus is God.” I mentioned in another conversation in this thread that that belief is incompatible with trinitarianism but not incompatible with Jewish unitary monotheism. Jesus is rarely but occasionally referred to as elohim / theos in scripture. That doesn’t make him God in the highest sense of the term. He is God in a secondary sense, as his God’s shaliach.

Who is God in the highest sense of the term?

You say the Trinity. I say the Father.

 

[Matthias]

And because the Jews couldn't tolerate the idea that Jesus, a man, made Himself out to be God, they killed Him. Right?

John 19:7 KJV
7) The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

John 10:30-39 KJV
30) I and my Father are one.
31) Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32) Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33) The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34) Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35) If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36) Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37) If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38) But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
39) Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,

Much love!

Jesus didn’t make himself out to be God. God made Jesus God, in a secondary sense.

God did the same thing with Moses. (See Exodus 7:1.)

 

[Johann]

I’m a Jewish unitary monotheist who believes Jesus of Nazareth is the promised Messiah.

You are awaiting the FIRST coming of the Messiah, the Messiah ben David, not so?
J.

 

[Episkopos]

Acts 20:27-28 KJV
27) For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
28) Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Be careful of subtle changes.

Much love!

Mark, Mark, Mark. How you miss things!

We are to purchase eye salve from Christ...and oil from our lamps...with our LIVES. Do we need to shed our blood to give up our lives? Or is it spiritual?

The same goes for Jesus and His church. Jesus is alive...not dead. Life is in the blood. Shed blood has no power. Shed blood is proof of a sacrifice. But a sacrifice does NOT sustain life.

Here is the difference between a dead understanding and a living way.

 

[Matthias]

You are awaiting the FIRST coming of the Messiah, the Messiah ben David, not so?
J.

Not so.

Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah. I’m waiting for him to come back.