The Nature of Jesus Christ
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Johann
Well-Known Member
No, this is your putting words into my mouth. Jesus is fully human and fully God. Apparently you want to muddle things with all this "but was He a human person?"
Jesus is fully human and fully God. You and I do not seem to agree at all about Who Jesus Is. Or am I misunderstanding you, and you do in fact agree with what I'm saying here.
I don't find the "human person" so-called distinction in my Bible, and I prefer to talk about what it is the Bible. (@Johann )
Much love!
Thanks, but my question wasn’t concerning separation from his body; my question: Was Jesus separated from God?
It may be a silly question, but I would be an extremely wealthy man if I had a $1 for every time I’ve heard someone say over the past 50+ years that “God died for our sins.”
I take it from your response that we’re in agreement that God didn’t die when Jesus did.
I’m sorry if I’ve misunderstood you. I thought we had agreed that Jesus was a human person. Apparently we didn’t. I’ll offer a clarification:
Me - Jesus was a human person.
You - Jesus was not a human person.
Trinitarianism - Jesus was not a human person. (Please see the trinitarian sources I quoted for documentation.)
I’m a Christian who embraces Jewish unitary monotheism. Jesus isn’t “fully human and fully God” in my theology; he is in trinitarian theology.
Your response to this post should answer that for us.
They are the first two I look at actually.
Sinless perfection?
Romans 6:6 KJV
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
We've been released from all power of the flesh that would cause us to sin. We no longer have to sin.
1 Corinthians 1:30 KJV
But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
Jesus has come into us to share His life with us, which is santified. Living in Christ means living free from sin.
Galatians 5:16 KJV
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
We don't deny sin, we replace sin with the abundant life which we receive by faith.
Romans 7:20 KJV
Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Because we remain for now in corrupt flesh, there is still sinfulness living in me . . . that is . . . in my flesh. A very important distinction.
Romans 6:11 KJV
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Being crucified to our bodies of sin, we need to learn to think that way, believe by faith it is so, to then make our choices based on that belief.
1 Corinthians 4:4 KJV
For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
And even so, if we do all things well, still, we are not the qualified judges. Jesus will judge us in truth. We can condemn ourselves when we are not guilty, and can excuse ourselves though we are wrong.
Ephesians 4:23-24 KJV
23) And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24) And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Romans 12:1-2 KJV
1) I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2) And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
The renewing of the mind is when we cancel our old way of thinking according to the fleshy life and replace it with the new way of thinking in our new spirit life in Christ.
Thank you for asking!
On a personal note, I'm just like anyone. Yes, there remain in my life works of my flesh, sins. Christ causes me to grow in self-control, and provides healing to my mind.
Much love!
You asked me, According to my definition, did Jesus die?
I answered you. You didn't like my answer, it would seem
The Bible teaches us that Jesus died a physical death on our behalf. As a physical death - the offerering of His body - He was separated from said body.
Now you are asking, did Jesus die spiritually? That is, was He separated from God? That's the question of the ages now, isn't it? "My God, My God, why have You forsaken me?" Did He ask that to point to the Psalm, as some say? Or because He felt abandoned, in His humanity, as some say? Or because God DID separate from Him, when Jesus took on all of humanity's sin, as some say?
I just stick with what the the Bible says. Jesus suffered death on our behalf, and that death was the offering of His body on the cross.
Psalms 22:21-22 KJV
21) Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.
22) I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.
Jesus didn't lose His trust in His Father. He knew He would triumph over death.
John 4:24 KJV
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Luke 24:39 KJV
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
1 Timothy 3:16 KJV
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
John 1:1 KJV
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:14 KJV
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Hebrews 10:9-14 KJV
9) Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10) By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11) And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12) But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13) From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14) For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
God the Son incarnated into human flesh, and offered that body of human flesh as a sacrifice by death for sins.
Hopefully this will clarify.
Much love!
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You asked me, According to my definition, did Jesus die?
I answered you. You didn't like my answer, it would seem
The Bible teaches us that Jesus died a physical death on our behalf. As a physical death - the offerering of His body - He was separated from said body.
Now you are asking, did Jesus die spiritually? That is, was He separated from God? That's the question of the ages now, isn't it? "My God, My God, why have You forsaken me?" Did He ask that to point to the Psalm, as some say? Or because He felt abandoned, in His humanity, as some say? Or because God DID separate from Him, when Jesus took on all of humanity's sin, as some say?
I just stick with what the the Bible says. Jesus suffered death on our behalf, and that death was the offering of His body on the cross.
Psalms 22:21-22 KJV
21) Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.
22) I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.
Jesus didn't lose His trust in His Father. He knew He would triumph over death.
You're so clever!!
John 4:24 KJV
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Luke 24:39 KJV
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
1 Timothy 3:16 KJV
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
John 1:1 KJV
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:14 KJV
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Hebrews 10:9-14 KJV
9) Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10) By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11) And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12) But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13) From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14) For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
God the Son incarnated into human flesh, and offered that body of human flesh as a sacrifice by death for sins.
Hopefully this will clarify.
Much love!
I appreciate your response. It seems to me from what you’ve written that we aren’t understanding one another.
I was raised trinitarian. Some of what you say is what I was taught and what I in turn taught as a theology professor. Some of what you say isn’t. That’s fine; all I’m interested in is finding out what you believe, whether it aligns with historical trinitarianism or not.
I'm interested in Biblical trinitarianism. Once we get sidetracked into this group or that group, you know, "historical" anything always turns out to be selective, and different people thought different things. For me, it's all about you and me and the Bible.
This idea, that I'm to be compared to Catholic theology or some such, I'm just not so interested.
If you've been thinking that my views match theirs, or someone else's, and you've been arguing against that, maybe that helps me understand some of your posts.
But to be clear, I think long involved arguments tend to make murky the clarity of the Bible itself. I think for the most part we can just read it's words, and stick with that.
Much love!
Thank you. That was very helpful. I have a better understanding of where you’re coming from now.
In the classroom setting I used an acronym : TAHOT
Trinitarians Against Historical Orthodox Trinitarianism
Johann
Well-Known Member
Powerful scriptures.@marks
1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
1Jn_1:6, 1Jn_1:10, 1Jn_3:5-6; 1Ki_8:46; 2Ch_6:36; Job_9:2, Job_14:4, Job_15:14, Job_25:4; Psa_143:2; Pro_20:9; Ecc_7:20; Isa_53:6, Isa_64:6; Jer_2:22-23; Rom_3:23; Jas_3:2
we deceive: 1Co_3:18; Gal_6:3; 2Ti_3:13; Jas_1:22, Jas_1:26; 2Pe_2:13
the truth: 1Jn_2:4; 1Ti_6:5; 2Jn_1:2; 3Jn_1:3
Note all the "If's"
"If we say that we have no sin". John includes himself in this hypothetical affirmation. "If we (subjunctive) should say, affirm, or claim" "that (a) sin not we (Greek echomen) have, hold, contain or embrace"; this affirms at least an abiding sin nature or disposition exists in every Child of God. Rom_7:17-18; Rom_7:20-21; Rom_7:23.
If we say that we have no sin,.... Notwithstanding believers are cleansed from their sins by the blood of Christ, yet they are not without sin; no man is without sin: this is not only true of all men, as they come into the world, being conceived in sin, and shapen in iniquity, and of all that are in a state of unregeneracy, and of God's elect, while in such a state, but even of all regenerated and sanctified persons in this life; as appears by the ingenuous confessions of sin made by the saints in all ages; by their complaints concerning it, and groans under it; by the continual war in them between flesh and spirit; and by their prayers for the discoveries of pardoning grace, and for the fresh application of Christ's blood for cleansing; by their remissness in the discharge of duty, and by their frequent slips and falls, and often backslidings: and though their sins are all pardoned, and they are justified from all things by the righteousness of Christ, yet they are not without sin; though they are freed from the guilt of sin, and are under no obligation to punishment on account of it, yet not from the being of it; their sins were indeed transferred from them to Christ, and he has bore them, and took them and put them away, and they are redeemed from them, and are acquitted, discharged, and pardoned, so that sin is not imputed to them, and God sees no iniquity in them in the article of justification; and also, their iniquities are caused to pass from them, as to the guilt of them, and are taken out of their sight, and they have no more conscience of them, having their hearts sprinkled and purged by the blood of Jesus, and are clear of all condemnation, the curse of the law, the wrath of God, or the second death, by reason of them; yet pardon of sin, and justification from it, though they take away the guilt of sin, and free from obligation to punishment, yet they do not take out the being of sin, or cause it to cease to act, or do not make sins cease to be sins, or change the nature of actions, of sinful ones, to make them harmless, innocent, or indifferent; the sins of believers are equally sins with other persons, are of the same kind and nature, and equally transgressions of the law, and many of them are attended with more aggravating circumstances, and are taken notice of by God, and resented by him, and for which he chastises his people in love: now though a believer may say that he has not this or that particular sin, or is not guilty of this or that sin, for he has the seeds of all sin in him, yet he cannot say he has no sin; and though he may truly say he shall have no sin, for in the other state the being and principle of sin will be removed, and the saints will be perfectly holy in themselves, yet he cannot, in this present life, say that he is without it: if any of us who profess to be cleansed from sin by the blood of Christ should affirm this,
we deceive ourselves; such persons must be ignorant of themselves, and put a cheat upon themselves, thinking themselves to be something when they are nothing; flattering themselves what pure and holy creatures they are, when there is a fountain of sin and wickedness in them; these are self-deceptions, sad delusions, and gross impositions upon themselves:
and the truth is not in us; it is a plain case the truth of grace is not in such persons, for if there was a real work of God upon their souls, they would know and discern the plague of their own hearts, the impurity of their nature, and the imperfection of their obedience; nor is the word of truth in them, for if that had an entrance into them, and worked effectually in them, they would in the light of it discover much sin and iniquity in them; and indeed there is no principle of truth, no veracity in them; there is no sincerity nor ingenuity in them; they do not speak honestly and uprightly, but contrary to the dictates of their own conscience.
Here I agree with Gill
The 'sin nature' is not surgically removed from the believer as Mr Wuest advocates it is still very much in the believer hence, the believer is not in a STATE of habitual sinning as the unregenerate but we do commit ACTS of sin on a daily basis.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
J.
So I'm curious . . . I've seen this "human person" argument in Catholic teaching. You call it "historical orthodox", do you equate these? That the Catholic doctrine is what is "historically orthodox"?
Much love!
Hi Johann,
Do you think sin is unavoidable as a Christian?
I think for the most part I spend far too much time concerned over sin. I find that the more I just forget about sin, and forget about how concerned I am over the sinfulness of my flesh, the more I just rest in Jesus, and then live with a clean conscience. And I think the best way is to live that way, and to allow the Holy Spirit to bring to my attention such things as are needed to be addressed.
Much love!
I believe we are truly dead to our flesh bodies wherein sin lives, and therefore have no obligation whatsoever to do what the flesh demands. We just don't have to. But when we forget our freedom, when we don't trust, we get fooled into giving up our power.
Much love!
Johann
Well-Known Member
@marks, for me the battlefield is in the mind not so much as yielding to the flesh as in the works of the flesh, but definitely in the mind.
I cannot, like you, forget of my sinfulness and need to constantly confess my sins, the thoughts, in word and deed knowing that I am a blood bought child of the living Father and that Christ Jesus redeemed me with His precious blood.
I have read Romans 6, 7 and 8 and it clearly shows me Paul also battled in this area, the mind,
I read the testimonies of the reformers, same thing there, I am free in Christ, yet not free, hope you understand what I'm getting at here.
2Ti_2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
I need fellowship my brother, with genuine saints, not phony's since I can smell a hypocrite a mile away and I am NOT saying you are a hypocrite.
Shalom to you and precious family and the opportunity to just share scriptures.
J.
Johann
Well-Known Member
Then you are stronger, more mature, able to overcome the mind, which bring to remembrance..
Heb 12:1 So, therefore, als (since) we have surrounding us so great an Anan Edim (Cloud of Witnesses), let us also lay aside every weighty impediment and easily ensnaring averos, and let us run with endurance and savlanut the race set before us,
Heb 12:2 Fixing our gaze on the Mekhonen (Founder) of our [Orthodox Messianic Jewish] faith, and the One who makes it Shleimut-- Yehoshua, who because of the simcha set before him, endured HaEtz HaMoshiach, disregarding its bushah (shame), and "sat down at the right hand of the throne of G-d" TEHILLIM 110:1).
OJB
Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Do Not Grow Weary
Heb 12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Shalom
J.
Johann
Well-Known Member
Johann
Well-Known Member
Johann
Well-Known Member
I just want to add, if there is a thing such as sinless perfection then there is no need for progressive sanctification, and if there is no need for progressive sanctification, and have attained, in this life, absolute perfection, then it stands to reason we don't need a Savior since we can pull ourselves up by our own bootstraps @marks, no need for the Holy Spirit to intercede in our stead, no need for Christ Jesus to intercede on our stead.
Just thinking out loud
J.
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