The Nature of Jesus Christ
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Johann
Well-Known Member
How many Gods to you see in Scripture?
I know that the judges are called elohim, mighty ones. Do you see Jesus as god in that sense? It sounds like you are describing a "demi-god" sort of sense, that is, a "god" who is above man, but not divine in the same way as the Father? Is that like how you see this?
Much love!
This is inaccurate. The Hebrew reads ..."see, I (will) give to you God (plural) to Pharoah." Never does it say that Moses is God. And Jesus never claims to be both Father and Son (plural). Jesus is the Sar Shalom (Prince of Peace) and the El Gibor (Mighty God). Both are singular.
Elohim is the plural of two Persons in ONE Spirit.
As for your lack of understanding of who Jesus is...well humans will be humans.
The early Jewish Christians ended up denying Christ as God...and so were lost to history. Likewise those who saw Jesus as ONLY God (and not human) also were lost to history. The ONLY reason why the Trinity idea took root is because it places divinity and Godship on both Father and Son. The fact that they committed the error of making God's own Spirit to be a separate person from Him just shows that we humans cannot strike a good balance in our dealings...With the coming of Jesus we add 1 Father and 1 Son and somehow end up with 3.
We are only human after all.
I’m just about to finish reading Maurice Casey’s book, From Jewish Prophet To Gentile God.
Several times he has commented “removal of the restraining factor of Jewish monotheism is all we need” to make the shift from Jewish monotheism to trinitary monotheism, and this gradually happened as the Gentiles became the majority in the Church.
The Jewish Law of Agency.
http://www.christianmonotheism.com/media/text/Raymond Essoe -- Shaliah.pdf
Can you see that both are due to human extremes? We go from 1 to 3 by bypassing 2...which is required for a proper balance. We have 2 eyes and 2 ears...not one or three. Eyes in Hebrew is eynayim. ears are oznayim. No other number is required to show the duality. Ephraim means DOUBLE fruit. Again the plural is ALWAYS 2 unless indicated by another number.
Look into the Hebrew. The plural "im" ALWAYS means 2...unless another number is attached. Elohim is plural...2. God is One...but One what? One Holy Spirit!
Johann
Well-Known Member
..and here I thought the rabbis, ancient rabbinical writings came up with the idea that there may be more than echad, two powers, who then became more powers, they actually saw the Triune Godhead...
J.
that’s true we are all fallen nature and sin
Hebrews 12:4
Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
we fail sometimes
humbly repent and go to the sacrament of confession
I’ve commented elsewhere in the thread that elohim is always plural in form but either singular or plural in meaning, depending on the context. When it is singular in meaning, the Greek equivalent is theos; the English equivalent is God or god. When it is plural in meaning, the Greek equivalent is theoi; the English equivalent is gods.
I miss Thrifty's Spumoni ice cream, with a second scoop of Burgundy Cherry (no wine in that!). I remember paying a nickle a scoop, and sometimes we could even get a triple!
Those who claim that Jesus is not God will have a difficulty with the plain saying of this passage.
Acts 20:27-28 KJV
27) For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
28) Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Does this somehow mean to you that this passage in Acts isn't true, doesn't mean what it says?
1 Peter 1 KJV
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
Much love!
Johann
Well-Known Member
Interesting, how are you going to reason this away, I wonder..
Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
And having received the tevilah in the Yarden’s mikveh mayim, Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach immediately came up. And, hinei! The Shomayim were opened to him, and he saw the Ruach Hakodesh of Hashem descending like a yonah (dove) and coming upon him.
Mat 3:17 And, hinei, a bat kol (a voice from heaven) came out of Shomayim, saying, ZEH BNI AHUVI ASHER BO CHAFATZTI (This is my Son, the beloved, with whom I am well pleased).
OJB
J.
Perhaps you could summarize your link for me. By your wording there, "law of agency", it sounds like you are about to say that Jesus is God but not really. If that's the case, I'll just ask you, which is it? yes? Or no?
Much love!
See Jews For Jesus and Jewish mysticism.
The Jew we should look to, I think you’ll agree, is Jesus. His God isn’t the Trinity.
If for some reason every Jew on the planet were to reject the Jewish unitary monotheism of their heritage, Jesus would still be a Jewish unitary monotheist, and his God only one person, the Father - not three persons.
Johann
Well-Known Member
Yeah, the Halaka and Kabbala, not to mention the Rambanic uninspired writings, a potent cauldron.
J.
“Agent (Heb.Shaliah: The main point point of the Jewish law of agency is expressed in the dictum, ‘a person’s agent is regarded as the person himself.”
What I’m saying is that Jesus is God figuratively, not literally.
It’s not the belief of Jesus. And if we read it carefully, it isn’t quite compatible with historic orthodox trinitarianism.
The "Spirit of God" has always been God's Spirit. read the Old Testament and ALL the references to God's Holy Spirit...then ask..why didn't the Jews ever consider God's Spirit to be a separate person from Him?
Do you realize that God (plural) IS SPIRIT.
let's see how you reason away the actual biblical stance from Paul who says...
"For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God." 1 Cor. 2:11
Does this sound like someone who is trying to sell you on a "triune" God?
Or do you believe your spirit is a separate person from you?
Indoctrinated people will NOT use their reasoning since religious ideology appeals to a non-thinking part of a person. But we are to love God with the mind as well as the heart.
Happy hunting.
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