The Nature of Jesus Christ

[Johann]

Jesus is a Jew. I view him through the lens of his Jewish theology.

Orthodox, or Ultra Orthodox?
J.

 

[Matthias]

Signing off now, late here in Africa.
God willing, see you tomorrow.
Shalom to you and family
J.

I’ve visited Africa twice (Zimbabwe, Malawi, Mozambique and Kenya). I doubt that I’ll ever get back there in this lifetime, but I would love to.

Good night.

 

[Johann]

No. See the theology of Jesus. (He wasn’t into Jewish mysticism, the Talmud, etc.)

Are you aware the Oral Torah was in existence in the time of Jesus?
J.

 

[Matthias]

Orthodox, or Ultra Orthodox?
J.

Jesus was neither.

 

[Matthias]

Are you aware the Oral Torah was in existence in the time of Jesus?
J.

Yes.

 

[marks]

Often it does. That was the case with me. I was raised to see the Trinity in scripture and I saw

Cultural context, religious practices, word meanings, etc. from a trinitarian perspective.

If we have concluded that scripture was written by trinitarians won’t we find the Trinity there?

Not everyone is like that.

For myself, I'm really into exactly what the Bible says for itself. I've found lots of things different from things I've been taught, and in other cases I've found agreement with things I've been taught.

If we have concluded that scripture was written by trinitarians won’t we find the Trinity there?

If we have concluded that scripture was written by non-trinitarians won’t we find the God of the non-trinitarians there?

And if we've concluded that we just need to look to the Bible to see what it says for itself, what then do we find?

That God purchased the church with His blood. That the Word was in the beginning was with God, and God was the Word, and the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us. And so on.

If we don't say, Jesus cannot be God, and we don't say, Jesus must be God, and we just read the Bible, we hear what it says. And if we never put ourselves in the position of saying, While it SAYS this, it doesn't MEAN this, we're on the right track.

Much love!

 

[Johann]

Jesus was neither.

I mean your theology
J.

 

[Matthias]

The Shema.
J.

”1. The one God. (a) theos is the most frequent designation of God in the NT. Belief in the one, only and unique God (Matt. 23:9; Rom. 3:30; 1 Cor. 8:4,6; Gal. 3:20; 1 Tim. 2:5; Jas. 2:19) is an established part of Christian tradition. Jesus himself made the fundamental confession of Jud. his own and expressly quoted the Shema (Deut. 6:4-5; see Mk. 12:29-30; cf. Matt. 22:37; Lk. 10:27). This guaranteed continuity between the old and the new covenants. The God whom Christians worship is the God of the fathers (Acts 3:13; 5:30; 22:14), the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Acts 3:13; 7:32; cf. Matt. 22:32; Mk. 12:26; Lk. 20:37), the God of Israel (Matt. 15:31; Lk. 1:68; Acts 13:17), and the God of Jesus Christ (2 Cor. 1:3; Eph. 1:3; 1Pet. 1:3).”

(New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Abridged Edition, p. 244)

 

[Matthias]

I mean your theology
J.

His theology is my theology.

 

[Matthias]

Not everyone is like that.

For myself, I'm really into exactly what the Bible says for itself. I've found lots of things different from things I've been taught, and in other cases I've found agreement with things I've been taught.



And if we've concluded that we just need to look to the Bible to see what it says for itself, what then do we find?

That God purchased the church with His blood. That the Word was in the beginning was with God, and God was the Word, and the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us. And so on.

If we don't say, Jesus cannot be God, and we don't say, Jesus must be God, and we just read the Bible, we hear what it says. And if we never put ourselves in the position of saying, While it SAYS this, it doesn't MEAN this, we're on the right track.

Much love!

When you read the Bible do you find that the God of Jesus is the Trinity?

 

[Johann]

”1. The one God. (a) theos is the most frequent designation of God in the NT. Belief in the one, only and unique God (Matt. 23:9; Rom. 3:30; 1 Cor. 8:4,6; Gal. 3:20; 1 Tim. 2:5; Jas. 2:19) is an established part of Christian tradition. Jesus himself made the fundamental confession of Jud. his own and expressly quoted the Shema (Deut. 6:4-5; see Mk. 12:29-30; cf. Matt. 22:37; Lk. 10:27). This guaranteed continuity between the old and the new covenants. The God whom Christians worship is the God of the fathers (Acts 3:13; 5:30; 22:14), the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Acts 3:13; 7:32; cf. Matt. 22:32; Mk. 12:26; Lk. 20:37), the God of Israel (Matt. 15:31; Lk. 1:68; Acts 13:17), and the God of Jesus Christ (2 Cor. 1:3; Eph. 1:3; 1Pet. 1:3).”

(New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Abridged Edition, p. 244)

Do you have Jewish resources since my wife was Jewish
Links would be much appreciated.
J.

 

[Matthias]

Do you have Jewish resources since my wife was Jewish
Links would be much appreciated.
J.

I have some which I use from time to time but I seldom use them when speaking with trinitarians. (They usually dismiss them out of hand.) I use trinitarian sources when speaking to trinitarians. (Sometimes they listen to them, sometimes they don’t.)

 

[marks]

When you read the Bible do you find that the God of Jesus is the Trinity?

When I read the Bible I find that Jesus and YHWH are One and the Same.

Much love!

 

[Matthias]

When I read the Bible I find that Jesus and YHWH are One and the Same.

Much love!

I account for that by the Jewish Law of Agency.

Are we able to agree that the God of Jesus is the Father, not the Trinity?

 

[Matthias]

Now I understand, you read the Midrash, Mishna, Rambanic writings, the Talmuds?
J.

Some. Most of my time, by far, is spent reading trinitarian scholarship.

 

[marks]

Are we able to agree that the God of Jesus is the Father, not the Trinity?

YHWH is the God of all flesh. Jesus called the Father His God.

Jesus, in His incarnation, a new humanity, the Word became flesh, He emptied Himself, He humbled Himself, He took on the form of a servant,

He was baptized a baptism of the repentance of sins yet He had no sin to repent of. He worshipped the Father God yet being Himself the Lord of heaven, God who would purchase His redeemed with His Own blood.

Our Creator God Who Himself, and not another, Himself, the Only Savior, Himself came to save us.

Jesus is YHWH, not in Name only, but in Truth.

And yes, I know the implications spin people in circles, those who feel like unless they can comprehend the fulness of Who God Is, they cannot accept such statements. I don't have that issue, I am able to just receive what I find in the Bible. And if God seems fully transcendant over me, well, what was any of us expecting? A God in a box?

Much love!

 

[Matthias]

YHWH is the God of all flesh. Jesus called the Father His God.

Jesus is YHWH, not in Name only, but in Truth.

And yes, I know the implications spin people in circles, those who feel like unless they can comprehend the fulness of Who God Is, they cannot accept such statements. I don't have that issue, I am able to just receive what I find in the Bible. And if God seems fully transcendant over me, well, what was any of us expecting? A God in a box?

Much love!

His God alone is my God.

 

[marks]

His God alone is my God.

And that's the rub. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father. That was a very "Jewish" problem.

Much love!

 

[Matthias]

And that's the rub. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father. That was a very "Jewish" problem.

Much love!

I don’t think it’s a rub for Jesus. There is no God besides his God.

I honor both Jesus and “our” God.

 

[Johann]

Some. Most of my time, by far, is spent reading trinitarian scholarship.

Nothing but the truth : being a short essay, wherein the author proves the doctrine of the ever blessed and adorable Trinity, both out of the Old Testament, and with the authority of the Cabalistical rabbies, ancient and modern: and that said doctrine is not a novelty, as his country-men do think, but as ancient as the Bible itself. / by R. Judah Monis.
Judah Monis 1683-1764.
Rosen BV812 .C66 1722 Copy 2
1722
You know this rabbi?
J.