"Prove it!"

[aspen]

Ever since the Fall, humanity has been on a quest. Our broken relationship with God has stricken the eye of our heart, blind; and we are all left groping for truth in the dark. The sad part is that we think we can see perfectly because we can only see the faults of our neighbors, not our own. We want solid proof that God exists and proof of a restored relationship, and we want it immediately on our own terms - just like the 2 year olds, we appear to be. Here are some of the highlights:

1. The tower of Babel
2. Moses and the miracles before Pharaoh
3. The golden calf
4. The ten commandments written on stone
5. The Israelites demanding miracles in the desert
6. The OT prophets dueling with the pagans
7. The people demanding miracles from Jesus
8. Our demands for a literal interpretation of the Bible.
9. Misuse of relics, articles of worship, and the Eucharist.
10. Waiting for a literal rapture, tribulation, solitary AntiChrist
11. Expecting the Jewish temple to actually be rebuilt - even when the Dome of the Rock is built on the foundation and we know that Jesus proclaimed that His own Body is the new Temple.

Will we ever change? The OT and the NT proclaim that a wicked generation demands miracles - I think it is time to give up our obsessive need to possess God - ownership of this sort only results in the possession of a transitional object - a teddy bear - a God substitute.

I think it is time to experience God, rather than determining the degree or quality of our relationship with God by the amount of knowledge, objects of worship, or feelings we own.....this type of paint by numbers faith reminds me of the Wizard of Oz when the Wizard handed the Scarecrow, Tinman, and Lion certificates declaring them to be whole - do we really need a certificate declaring us to be in right relationship with God? Wasn't His sacrifice enough?

 

[FHII]

Well, let me ask you, is it ok for me to think that quote by Ann Richards is stupid?

I know.. Off topic. Very thought provoking post. Very timely too. By now you are looking at a thread I posted, too. This quote is very intriguing:

"I think it is time to experience God, rather than determining the degree or quality of our relationship with God by the amount of knowledge, objects of worship, or feelings we own.....this type of paint by numbers faith reminds me of the Wizard of Oz when the Wizard handed the Scarecrow, Tinman, and Lion certificates declaring them to be whole - do we really need a certificate declaring us to be in right relationship with God? Wasn't His sacrifice enough?"


To quote that guy with a silver foot in his mouth, "That's fuzzy math". It's a good set of questions though. It is time to experience God, and not to determine by the amount of knowledge, etc... However, Jesus did say "Come and learn of me". One of the disciples said "increase our faith" and Jesus gave them more Truth... More knowledge.

I suspect there is a difference between getting knowledge, understanding that knowledge, knowing that knowledge, comprehending that knowledge, believing that knowledge and implementing/using/living that knowledge. In my educated mind by degrees I still can't figure out the black and white of it all! But I do believe this: we must have all that. We must understand, know, comprehend, believe and implement what we learn.

Love is good. Knowledge is good. Truth is good. Is there any of these three ingrediences we don't need?

 

[Prentis]

Amen aspen! It was true of the Pharisees. They said they could say, and for that very reason, Christ told them their sins remained, because they were blind.

The same is true of Christianity today. We think all our head knowledge and all these things make us God's people somehow. We think we are justified by our religion, going every sunday.

Yet we do not walk in the ways of Christ. If what we consider light is indeed darkness, how deceiving is that darkness!

 

[aspen]

Well, let me ask you, is it ok for me to think that quote by Ann Richards is stupid?

I know.. Off topic. Very thought provoking post. Very timely too. By now you are looking at a thread I posted, too. This quote is very intriguing:

"I think it is time to experience God, rather than determining the degree or quality of our relationship with God by the amount of knowledge, objects of worship, or feelings we own.....this type of paint by numbers faith reminds me of the Wizard of Oz when the Wizard handed the Scarecrow, Tinman, and Lion certificates declaring them to be whole - do we really need a certificate declaring us to be in right relationship with God? Wasn't His sacrifice enough?"


To quote that guy with a silver foot in his mouth, "That's fuzzy math". It's a good set of questions though. It is time to experience God, and not to determine by the amount of knowledge, etc... However, Jesus did say "Come and learn of me". One of the disciples said "increase our faith" and Jesus gave them more Truth... More knowledge.

I suspect there is a difference between getting knowledge, understanding that knowledge, knowing that knowledge, comprehending that knowledge, believing that knowledge and implementing/using/living that knowledge. In my educated mind by degrees I still can't figure out the black and white of it all! But I do believe this: we must have all that. We must understand, know, comprehend, believe and implement what we learn.

Love is good. Knowledge is good. Truth is good. Is there any of these three ingrediences we don't need?

You can express your opinion about the Richards' quote - I think it would be more interesting to know why you think it is stupid. :)

I agree that cognitive knowledge about God is important - no doubt! I am not advocating an anti-intellectual approach to Christianity. All I am saying is, cognitive understanding doesn't save you - and I think our Western minds have substituted 'knowledge about God; with 'a relationship with God' because of the high value we place on knowledge. The two things are very different. In addition, possession of knowledge can lead a person into some fairly dark, prideful places.

I like the monastic ideal of owning nothing.

A relationship with God is experienced in prayer, meditation, worship and loving relationships with our neighbors. I liked what you said at the end of your post when you included more than just cognitive understanding of God - you are right.

As far as college degrees and graduate degrees - ha! As a fellow educated person, perhaps mired in school loans; degrees are only a beginning to acquiring knowledge.

thanks for your post!

Amen aspen! It was true of the Pharisees. They said they could say, and for that very reason, Christ told them their sins remained, because they were blind.

The same is true of Christianity today. We think all our head knowledge and all these things make us God's people somehow. We think we are justified by our religion, going every sunday.

Yet we do not walk in the ways of Christ. If what we consider light is indeed darkness, how deceiving is that darkness!

So true. We have lost our desire and understanding of prayer - perhaps the Christian Mystics can bring us back to prayer - St. John of the Cross, anyone?

 

[Prentis]

The revelation of Christ is incompatible with human understanding. Only when we are given the mind of Christ can we grasp it, and walk in it, as opposed to talk about it. All humand understanding does is talk of the revelation, without actually understanding it.

Sadly, christendom, the mainstream church, has become a matter of human understanding, human tactics, and human ways and justification rather than a matter of revelation and walking in the Spirit.

 

[tomwebster]

...
I like the monastic ideal of owning nothing.
...

So what is stopping you from giving your stuff away? Come on, asp, be a leader!

 

[aspen]

So what is stopping you from giving your stuff away? Come on, asp, be a leader!

Ah....here comes Tom to rain on everyone's parade. Don't you get tired of simply making snide remarks Tom? Com'mon make a real contribution for once.

 

[Jake]

Good word, Aspen, in the OP!

I especially appreciate your thoughts on how we try to possess God, that He is something to be owned, yet we are the ones who were bought with a price.

The Lord bless you.

 

[aspen]

Good word, Aspen, in the OP!

I especially appreciate your thoughts on how we try to possess God, that He is something to be owned, yet we are the ones who were bought with a price.

The Lord bless you.

I really do think private ownership has hidden dangers that monastics understand, but we have forgotten. It is a bit daunting to think about it considering our economy is built on consumerism....

Thanks for the comment!

 

[Jake]

I really do think private ownership has hidden dangers that monastics understand, but we have forgotten. It is a bit daunting to think about it considering our economy is built on consumerism....

Thanks for the comment!

.

Without being monastics, we could still have their understanding that nothing we have is ours anyway, as we are to share what we have with others, but society has taught us what is mine is mine. Bless you!

 

[goodshepard55]

Awesome OP Aspen.....I agree, we have been bought by the sacrifice Jesus made for us on the cross...We are servants of the Lord Jesus...and Tom darling...do you own anything?....It is good to question people Tom, but we have to be will to do the same....

Love you guys...you are the best

 

[tomwebster]

Awesome OP Aspen.....I agree, we have been bought by the sacrifice Jesus made for us on the cross...We are servants of the Lord Jesus...and Tom darling...do you own anything?....It is good to question people Tom, but we have to be will to do the same....

Love you guys...you are the best

Yes, I own a number of things but I did not say, "I like the monastic ideal of owning nothing." Aspen said that and I just suggested he should go for it.

 

[Duckybill]

1. The tower of Babel
2. Moses and the miracles before Pharaoh
3. The golden calf
4. The ten commandments written on stone
5. The Israelites demanding miracles in the desert
6. The OT prophets dueling with the pagans
7. The people demanding miracles from Jesus
8. Our demands for a literal interpretation of the Bible.
9. Misuse of relics, articles of worship, and the Eucharist.
10. Waiting for a literal rapture, tribulation, solitary AntiChrist
11. Expecting the Jewish temple to actually be rebuilt - even when the Dome of the Rock is built on the foundation and we know that Jesus proclaimed that His own Body is the new Temple.

Are you saying you believe all these to be literal? Did you forget the testimony of Moses?:

Genesis 7:13-24 (NKJV)
13 On the very same day Noah and Noah's sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth, and Noah's wife and the three wives of his sons with them, entered the ark--
14 they and every beast after its kind, all cattle after their kind, every creeping thing that creeps on the earth after its kind, and every bird after its kind, every bird of every sort.
15 And they went into the ark to Noah, two by two, of all flesh in which is the breath of life.
16 So those that entered, male and female of all flesh, went in as God had commanded him; and the LORD shut him in.
17 Now the flood was on the earth forty days. The waters increased and lifted up the ark, and it rose high above the earth.
18 The waters prevailed and greatly increased on the earth, and the ark moved about on the surface of the waters.
19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly on the earth, and all the high hills under the whole heaven were covered.
20 The waters prevailed fifteen cubits upward, and the mountains were covered.
21 And all flesh died that moved on the earth: birds and cattle and beasts and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth, and every man.
22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, all that was on the dry land, died.
23 So He destroyed all living things which were on the face of the ground: both man and cattle, creeping thing and bird of the air. They were destroyed from the earth. Only Noah and those who were with him in the ark remained alive.
24 And the waters prevailed on the earth one hundred and fifty days.

And the testimony of Jesus that the Flood was a literal event?

 

[aspen]

Are you saying you believe all these to be literal? Did you forget the testimony of Moses?:

Genesis 7:13-24 (NKJV)
13 On the very same day Noah and Noah's sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth, and Noah's wife and the three wives of his sons with them, entered the ark--
14 they and every beast after its kind, all cattle after their kind, every creeping thing that creeps on the earth after its kind, and every bird after its kind, every bird of every sort.
15 And they went into the ark to Noah, two by two, of all flesh in which is the breath of life.
16 So those that entered, male and female of all flesh, went in as God had commanded him; and the LORD shut him in.
17 Now the flood was on the earth forty days. The waters increased and lifted up the ark, and it rose high above the earth.
18 The waters prevailed and greatly increased on the earth, and the ark moved about on the surface of the waters.
19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly on the earth, and all the high hills under the whole heaven were covered.
20 The waters prevailed fifteen cubits upward, and the mountains were covered.
21 And all flesh died that moved on the earth: birds and cattle and beasts and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth, and every man.
22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, all that was on the dry land, died.
23 So He destroyed all living things which were on the face of the ground: both man and cattle, creeping thing and bird of the air. They were destroyed from the earth. Only Noah and those who were with him in the ark remained alive.
24 And the waters prevailed on the earth one hundred and fifty days.

And the testimony of Jesus that the Flood was a literal event?

Oh Ducky.....always looking to pantse the hypocrite.....is that your spiritual gift?

I am not making a claim about whether the focus of the stories I mentioned in my post are myth or not. Once again - you've missed the point. In your sad attempt to take a cheap shot, you have failed to see that I merely mentioned the Biblical events to point out your - ummm Humanity's - obsessive need to cling desperately to the concrete.........

Try again soon

 

[Duckybill]

Oh Ducky.....always looking to pantse the hypocrite.....is that your spiritual gift?

I am not making a claim about whether the focus of the stories I mentioned in my post are myth or not. Once again - you've missed the point. In your sad attempt to take a cheap shot, you have failed to see that I merely mentioned the Biblical events to point out your - ummm Humanity's - obsessive need to cling desperately to the concrete.........

Try again soon

Just defending God's Word, the NT. Your comment "cheap shot" is a cheap shot at the NT/ Jesus. Thus says Jesus:

Luke 17:26-27 (NKJV)
26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.

 

[aspen]

Just defending God's Word, the NT. Your comment "cheap shot" is a cheap shot at the NT/ Jesus. Thus says Jesus:

Luke 17:26-27 (NKJV)
26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.

Since when does the Truth need defense? Are you tilting at windmills again? Perhaps your full name is DuckQuioxte?

Matthew 7:6
“Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.

 

[Duckybill]

Since when does the Truth need defense? Are you tilting at windmills again? Perhaps your full name is DuckQuioxte?

Why do you keep dodging the Truth of the NT and OT??? Replacing the Bible with insults will not get you into the Kingdom.

Matthew 7:6
“Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.

I get it Aspen. You think we who believe the Bible are pigs.

 

[aspen]

I am not 'trying to get into the kingdom' - the kingdom is in my heart, friend! The Spirit is at work in my heart - I am trying to wake you up! Trying to get you out of the tomes of doctrine and awaken you to the light of LOVE - the light of CHRIST!

 

[Duckybill]

I am not 'trying to get into the kingdom' - the kingdom is in my heart, friend! The Spirit is at work in my heart - I am trying to wake you up! Trying to get you out of the tomes of doctrine and awaken you to the light of LOVE - the light of CHRIST!

No, you are trying to stop Christians from warning sinners of their eternal fate in Hell.

 

[aspen]

No, you are trying to stop Christians from warning sinners of their eternal fate in Hell.

I am asking them to do the same thing Christ asked them to do - love God, and love your neighbor as yourself. Why are you impeding the work of Christ?