To deny that Christ has come in the flesh

[Insight]

Isa 9:6-7 KJV

How long will your random quoting of Scripture continue without asking questions of the text?

Firstly Isaiah states that Jesus "shall be called" (in the Kingdom Age Isa 9:7), not that he is now "The mighty God, The everlasting Father."

This is a your problem. This text places Christ into the future not having this name nor inherited its meaning.

Now both of you know that the work of this kingdom will be established by Christ, but the zeal of the LORD (Yahweh) of hosts will perform this see Isa. 9:7.

In other words...Christ said: "I can of mine own self do nothing". John 5:30.

I can see how infants would zoom in on the phrase "Mighty God" and get all excited at the prospect of this meaning actual Yahweh (God) Himself - but you all know this is not so. Jesus Christ will be the "mighty God" in the Kingdom Age when he comes with the power and glory of his Father. Matt. 16:27. I thought this was basic Christian teaching?

You don’t feel Jesus is worthy of such a title?

Well, of an angel, it is written, "my name is in him", that is the Yahweh name in Exod. 23:21. But as I have already taught you both Jesus (the Son of God) has obtained a more excellent name than the angels Heb. 1:4RSV and is worthy to bear the divine titles.

But does this imply he is "Very God" any more than it did for the angel who bore the divine name before the children of Israel.

Here is a thought.

Rather than quoting random verses that appear to say one thing and clearly mean another try asking wise questions of the Word!

This way you are open to receiving the Word and not wresting it with error.

God Bless

Insight

 

[Insight]

I might add.

Research the Hewbrew writings on this passage which teach that the Messiah will be named after God, like many Jews were, including Isaiah. You ought to know these titles (whcih are many) are not trinitarian: Jesus is not "the Father" according to traditional thinking. "Mighty God" is also in the Hebrew El Gibbor, gibbor being applied to human beings as "hero" in the OT.

John 5:43 applies

Insight

 

[Duckybill]

This about Jesus/God, and His eternal Kingdom, the Kingdom of God.

Isaiah 9:6-7 (NKJV)
6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.7 Of the increase of His government and peace There will be no end, Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, To order it and establish it with judgment and justice From that time forward, even forever.

Jesus is indeed God Almighty.

 

[Insight]

John 5:43 still applies

 

[Duckybill]

John 5:43 still applies

To whom?

 

[Insight]

2x2=4

The Son of God "shall" be called....John 5:43 & Isa 9:6,7

 

[Duckybill]

2x2=4

The Son of God "shall" be called....John 5:43

Are you referring to yourself? Please clarify.

 

[Insight]

Jesus is indeed the Son of God Almighty.

Red text added by Insight

 

[Duckybill]

Red text added by Insight

Only God is "equal with God".

John 5:18 (NKJV)
18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

 

[Insight]

Why couldnt the Son make himself equal with the Father?

He only ever did His will! Phil 2:8

 

[Duckybill]

Why couldnt the Son make himself equal with the Father?

He didn't have to. He already was.

He only ever did His will! Phil 2:8

Jesus didn't do the will of the Father?

 

[Insight]

Jesus didn't do the will of the Father?

 

[Perspectives]

Yes emphasis on the word "became".

Could you elaborate on that?

 

[Insight]

Could you elaborate on that?

Hello Big Picture

As you know the Apostle John in John 1:1 wrote “In the beginning the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And the Word became flesh and dwelt amongst us, full of grace and truth.

The Word of God is the Wisdom of God – His thoughts or intelligence of Deity. Jesus Christ being the spiritual creation patterned upon the natural or physical creation; it was by this same Word the worlds were created and are upheld by the word of His power, without this Word was not anything made.

Put very simply Jesus Christ is the “wisdom” and “goodness” of God embodied in flesh. Like all men who start this life who are without form and void and darkness is upon the face to the deep, so also was God ‘s beloved Son who was required to draw towards the light of God’s Word. Jesus perfectly grew in that light of His Fathers Word (Luke 2:52) and it was through obedience to that Word in him that he “became” the Word made flesh; of course you cannot suggest he is the Very Word itself – for this is the Eternal Word dwelling with the Father alone 1 Tim 6:16 and is not a created being, but the Creator.

Perhaps we will now be able to more clearly understand the meaning of such a passage as “Lo, I come to do thy will, O God” Heb 10:7

Of course one could possibly not suggest God would send Himself to obey His own Word and Will.

That would defeat the principle of faith. Heb 11:6

Insight

 

[Perspectives]

Hello Big Picture

As you know the Apostle John in John 1:1 wrote “In the beginning the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And the Word became flesh and dwelt amongst us, full of grace and truth.

The Word of God is the Wisdom of God – His thoughts or intelligence of Deity. Jesus Christ being the spiritual creation patterned upon the natural or physical creation; it was by this same Word the worlds were created and are upheld by the word of His power, without this Word was not anything made.

Put very simply Jesus Christ is the “wisdom” and “goodness” of God embodied in flesh. Like all men who start this life who are without form and void and darkness is upon the face to the deep, so also was God ‘s beloved Son who was required to draw towards the light of God’s Word. Jesus perfectly grew in that light of His Fathers Word (Luke 2:52) and it was through obedience to that Word in him that he “became” the Word made flesh; of course you cannot suggest he is the Very Word itself – for this is the Eternal Word dwelling with the Father alone 1 Tim 6:16 and is not a created being, but the Creator.

Perhaps we will now be able to more clearly understand the meaning of such a passage as “Lo, I come to do thy will, O God” Heb 10:7

Of course one could possibly not suggest God would send Himself to obey His own Word and Will.

That would defeat the principle of faith. Heb 11:6

Insight

Thanks for the reply. Certainly Jesus the man was born (created, if you like) and became the fullfillment of many prophesies. As well as John's history lesson in Ch.1. Hebrews 5:8 states, He learned obedience by the things He suffered. We all are becoming, if we follow. Where we part company is that God Himself as you percieve Him, could never be a Son to Himself the Father and a Father to the Son. That doesn't fit in your head. (It's not supposed to). He just isn't that great! How else could Jesus become the Christ? Jesus always pointed to the Father, Father was in Him. We do not have three gods. We do have the God which taught a special man and held together the universe and all else while showing the father/ son prinicple to the ages. Hebrews 11:6 is only defeated when misinterpreted, without the gift of faith it would be impossible to access His righteousness, which is what pleases God, faith is a mere tool.

 

[Duckybill]

As you know the Apostle John in John 1:1 wrote “In the beginning the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And the Word became flesh and dwelt amongst us, full of grace and truth.

Truth indeed, clear, plain and simple.

 

[Insight]

Truth indeed, clear, plain and simple.

No argument here that the Word is God.

 

[Duckybill]

No argument here that the Word is God.

And became flesh, as Jesus.

 

[Insight]

Thanks for the reply. Certainly Jesus the man was born (created, if you like) and became the fullfillment of many prophesies. As well as John's history lesson in Ch.1. Hebrews 5:8 states, He learned obedience by the things He suffered. We all are becoming, if we follow. Where we part company is that God Himself as you percieve Him, could never be a Son to Himself the Father and a Father to the Son. That doesn't fit in your head. (It's not supposed to). He just isn't that great! How else could Jesus become the Christ? Jesus always pointed to the Father, Father was in Him. We do not have three gods. We do have the God which taught a special man and held together the universe and all else while showing the father/ son prinicple to the ages. Hebrews 11:6 is only defeated when misinterpreted, without the gift of faith it would be impossible to access His righteousness, which is what pleases God, faith is a mere tool.

Big Picture

The Bible teaches that Jesus is not God and he did not pre-exist. We learn from the Scriptures that Jesus was created by the Father out of the substance of his mother Mary, at the time appointed by Yahweh, according as it is written:

But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, Galatians 4:4

Probably the question might arise to some, as to how he was made of a woman. The question clearly presented itself to the Virgin's mind, and was explained to her by the angel Gabriel, who told her the manner of its fulfilment—that the “Holy Spirit” should come upon her, and the power of the Highest (Yahweh) should overshadow her and "that Holy Thing that should be born of her should be called the Son of God". Now we know that as a general thing all children partake of the nature, constitution, and character of "both their parents.

No child is ever wholly and entirely and in all respects like one parent only, and we are not warranted in making an exception to this law in the case of the Son of God, from his mother he derived all the faculties, propensities, and instincts which belong to the nature of the first Adam. We are told in Heb 2:16 he took upon himself the nature of the seed of Abraham so that Jesus could sympathise his brethren. Heb 2:18

Jesus now stands as our mediator before the Father. 1 Tim 2:5

Such then was the "body prepared” for a habitation of the Spirit in all fullness - as it is written, "A body hast thou prepared for me, this body prophesied of from the beginning of the world—the woman's seed (Gen 3:15). Isaiah says, Behold a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel."

Simeon, " Mine eyes have seen the Lord's Christ." "It has been revealed unto him by the Holy Spirit that he should not see death before he had seen the Lord’s Christ.” The angel stated likewise “For unto you is born this day, in the city of David, a Saviour which is Christ the Lord” and so the Angelic host gave praise and worship the Son Heb 1:6

Of course all this would be meaningless if Jesus was God or pre-existed.

Insight

And became flesh, as Jesus.

No argument that the Word of God became flesh as Jesus also.

 

[Duckybill]

No argument that the Word of God became flesh as Jesus also.

Which makes Jesus God.

John 20:28-29 (NKJV)
28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" 29 Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."