Saying you are without sin verses in 1 John

[Episkopos]

I am that publican.
J.

LOL. If I had a dollar for every time I heard someone claiming to the the righteous one. People need to know themselves and stop trying to exalt themselves and justify themselves. The Pharisee will always claim to be the Publican and the Publican (because he is humble...of all things) will claim to be the Pharisee. Every time. :)

Discerning the flesh is the easiest thing to do once you turn the world back the way it should be :)

 

[stunnedbygrace]

No, I think @stunnedbygrace had it right. Whether the goal is or is not attainable isn't the point, though I would hope those who believe they already love God with all their heart, mind, soul, and strength, and love their neighbors as themselves, I do hope they can honestly before God and men assess their own performance in the race.

No, the point is to run this race with trust and perseverance. It's the running, not the grabbing.

Tell that to the greyhounds running after the rabbit!

 

[Robert Gwin]

I never said that I was sin free, I was saying what the Bible teaches on the topic. Experience doe not define Scripture or interpret what it means its the other way around we interpret scripture , what it means and our experience needs to line with to the Bible.

hope this helps !!!

Aah! Now we agree, so then since all of us are sinners, how do you harmonize passages that seem to indicate that Christians do not sin?

 

[Episkopos]

Tell that to the greyhounds running after the rabbit!

...or the monkey with his hand in the bottle who is stuck because he won't let go of the shiny object. :)

 

[Lambano]

Tell that to the greyhounds running after the rabbit!

I'm thinking more of the Sneaky Labrador chasing squirrels. When she's found dead squirrels on the road, she turns up her nose at it. Not interested. It's the chase that's fun.

 

[Episkopos]

Aah! Now we agree, so then since all of us are sinners, how do you harmonize passages that seem to indicate that Christians do not sin?

Another LOL!

Religious definition of "harmonize." : verb meaning to obscure, deny, ignore, or get downright hostile towards those who have the audacity to point out a verse that reveals something missing in my religious certainty.

:)

 

[Robert Gwin]

Are you not aware of the differenceS ??
Naturally born in SIN
Commits SIN
SIN Forgiven.<—- Gods Power
Supernaturally born Again. <—- Gods Seed.
SINS NOT Again. <—- Gods Power “IN” the man.



Utterly foolish. Who said ANYTHING about “changing of the mind”?
Any diligent student of Gods Word, SHOULD KNOW, transformation Offered BY God, is EXPRESSLY:
“by, through, of A man HEART-FULLY confessing Belief TO the Lord God, IN the Lord God
AND
“By, through, of the Lord God Almighty’s Faithful Works in “THAT” man”.



Your sarcasm noted.
Your lack of understanding the majority of the NT noted.



Jesus Giving His BODY, for the Life of the World, was His Offering.
Jesus Giving His BLOOD, for the Forgiveness of the World, was His Offering.

His GIVING, does not put you “in good standing with Him”.
YOU agreeing to ACCEPT His Offering is what puts a man “in good standing with Him”.

Seems you not only completely ignored “YOUR PART”...
But offered your sarcasm to me, because I DID my Part.
Also offered your lack of understanding, of Gods Response to me DOING my Part...”as if”...you do not know, it is Accomplished By Gods Power.

So then you openly admit all sin and fall short of the glory of God now, why didn't you simply do that to begin with? The law was given to show that it is impossible for humans to live sinless. Not one individual was able to live it, hence the reason for Jesus' sacrifice for Christians. You do realize that those who have chosen not to be a Christian is not covered by Jesus' sacrifice, correct? So his sacrifice are for the sins of Christians only.

 

[Lambano]

Aah! Now we agree, so then since all of us are sinners, how do you harmonize passages that seem to indicate that Christians do not sin?

Bob, the purpose of those verses is to establish an identity that we are exhorted to live into. Our identity in Christ.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

No, I think @stunnedbygrace had it right. Whether the goal is or is not attainable isn't the point, though I would hope those who believe they already love God with all their heart, mind, soul, and strength, and love their neighbors as themselves, I do hope they can honestly before God and men assess their own performance in the race.

No, the point is to run this race with trust and perseverance. It's the running, not the grabbing.

Have been thinking furiously on this and I can’t put it down or get it out of my head. It’s stuck there like a song. The part where you say it’s the running, not the grabbing. And a verse just came to me.
Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Runin such a way as to get the prize. 25 Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. 26 Therefore I do not run like someone running aimlessly; I do not fight like a boxer beating the air. 27 No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

He is talking about the strict training - striking a blow to his outer man, his flesh, so that he will not be disqualified. This is to not run aimlessly. It’s to run with the purpose of crucifying the outer man because you aim to win the prize.

 

[Lambano]

Have been thinking furiously on this and I can’t put it down or get it out of my head. It’s stuck there like a song. The part where you say it’s the running, not the grabbing. And a verse just came to me.
Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. 25 Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. 26 Therefore I do not run like someone running aimlessly; I do not fight like a boxer beating the air. 27 No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

Where I was going with that was, those who think they already have the prize no longer have reason to run.

'Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have no need of anything,” and you do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked...'

 

[Johann]

That is very correct. It’s why the apostle said this:
But whatever were gains to me I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8 What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith inChrist—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith. 10 I want to knowChrist—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death,11 and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead.

12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead,14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

Php 3:4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
Php 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Php 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
Php 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Php 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Php 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Php 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Straining Toward the Goal
Php 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect:....as most here unashamedly claim...

but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Php 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Php 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
Is Paul, himself not perfect, saying the others are perfect?

perfect] An adjective, not a perfect participle, as was the kindred word (“perfected”) in Php_3:12.—Is there a contradiction between this place and that? On the surface, but not really. The Apostle appears to be taking up the favourite word of teachers who upheld some phase of “perfectionism,” and using it, with loving irony, on the side of truth; as if to say, “Are you, are we, ideal Christians, perfect Christians, all that Christians should be? Then among the things that should be in our character is a holy discontent with, and criticism of, our own present attainment.

The man in this sense ‘perfect’ will be sure to think himself not perfected.”—And it is important to remember that the Greek word rendered “perfect” is an elastic word. It may mean “adult,” “mature,” as against infantine; cp. Heb_5:13-14.

A “perfect” Christian in this respect may have spiritual faculty well developed, and yet be very far from “perfected” in spiritual character.—Such considerations, in the light of this whole passage, will do anything for such a Christian rather than teach him to tolerate sin in himself; they will at once keep him humble and contrite, and animate him to ever fresh developments in and by Christ.

Do you understand?
J.

 

[Johann]

Where I was going with that was, those who think they already have the prize no longer have reason to run.

'Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have no need of anything,” and you do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked...'

Well said, with the scriptures in context.
J.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Those who think they already have the prize have no reason to run anymore.

'Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have no need of anything,” and you do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked...'

Well…you must complete the race to win. But I would not be quick to think or say the race to grab what you have been grabbed FOR can absolutely not be attained until after death. Some people win races, beauty pageants, games, and later have their trophies or titles or medals taken from them when it is found that they cheated in some way or did not follow the rules.

Paul knew his flesh could disqualify him, making him a hypocrite for preaching but then not doing himself what he preached to others. He knew how sneaky and despicable his own heart and flesh could be. He knew he was capable of hypocrisy. He put no confidence in his flesh, he wanted it crucified and even said, if I can by any means somehow attain the resurrection of the dead. He knew the rules, he knew he had to run his race of trust and finish in trust. He encouraged men to examine themselves to see if they really WERE in trust. Did they worry and labor over things they were told by Jesus NOT to worry and labor over? Did they do like Israel and trust Him to save them but then stop trusting when it came to temporal needs? So he warned to see to it that their hearts did not fail to continue in trust. He warned to see to it that their hearts did not, after trusting God to save them, then become evil and untrusting as with Israel in the desert.

I’ve seen people say they trust God to save them and then proceed to worry and fret about their tanking IRA, or their health, or getting cancer or covid, or any number of things. I’ve seen me do it as well. Those worries are the opposite of trust. We will all die and we will die when and how God allows and will not die before He allows or in a manner other than He allows.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So you believe until we are perfect we are not children of God; that as soon as we receive the Holy Spirit we know all the mysteries of God and all his laws and never make any mistakes.

We look at minor faults differently. You see it as sins of ignorance. Thus (according to you), if a person commits sins of ignorance, they are forgiven for these kinds of sins. While I believe there are sins of ignorance, I believe one is not exempt because it is the Spirit who convicts a person of their sin (John 16:8-9) whereby they are required to confess of that sin to Jesus to be forgiven of it (1 John 1:9) (1 John 2:1). A person’s ignorance will not save them because in Romans 2:14 we learn that the Gentiles were able to keep the Law without having the Law. This is the Moral Law that is instinctual to mankind (Although many have attempted to bury their moral compass).

I see minor faults (or non-death sins) as falling into two categories.

#1. One type of Non-Death sin is any Death Sin (like lying, coveting, hating, etc.) that is confessed with the true heart’s intention to forsake it and never do it again (Realizing that they can be condemned if they truly never overcome this sin in this life).

#2. Another type of Non-Death sin is the kind of sin that God’s Word appears to suggest as non-punitive in the afterlife but it only punishable in this life.
​

Luke 12:48-49 does not say that the person who did not know His will was not beaten at all, but that they were beaten with few stripes. This is in context to what I believe is a Christian missing out on the Rapture. I believe they (i.e. those who were beaten with few stripes and those with many stripes) will both be cut asunder and have their portion with unbelievers (i.e. this unbelieving world and not be Raptured because they were not spiritually ready and they did not look for their Lord’s coming at any moment).

Anyways, I will repost my list of Non-Death Sins (According to the Bible) in my next two posts to you. Believers need to overcome Death Sins in this life (like: Hate, adultery, idolatry, drunkenness, etc). Overcoming Death Sins is meeting the bare minimum requirements of holy living to be saved. For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14). Sinless Perfection is going beyond meeting the bare minimum level requirement of living holy (in putting away Death Sins) to be saved, and it is about being obedient in all things to include Non-Death Sins (So as to be perfect). So Sinless Perfection is not a salvation issue.

 

[Johann]

Well…you must complete the race to win. But I would not be quick to think or say the race to grab what you have been grabbed FOR can absolutely not be attained until after death.

Incorrect, you show me ONE verse that says "we" can "grab", to use your propositions. Can
be/may be obtained in THIS life, you are doing a lot of philosophizing not cutting straight the word of the Lord.


Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
See here?

Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought:

but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
God's Everlasting Love
Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

You need to to some inductive bible study, and use biblical terminologies found in scriptures.
When were we adopted?
J.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@1stCenturyLady

Here is my list of…

Sins Not Unto Death:

Important Note:

Please keep in mind that I am not trying to trivialize sin. I believe after we are saved by God's grace that we must live holy as a part of God's plan of salvation. For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord. Believers cannot justify sin that leads to spiritual death, condemnation, or hellfire. For I believe we should obey the Lord in all things. For I want to stress that there are grievous sins (or death sins) like murder, hate, adultery, lying, etc. that can lead even a believer to being condemned in the Lake of Fire if such sins are not repented of (i.e. if these sins are not confessed or forsaken).

Anyways,...

​

Here is my biblical case for sins that do not lead unto death:

​

#1. 1 John 5:17 mentions the "sin not unto death."

In context to 1 John 5: This would be talking about confessed grievous sin that one is striving to overcome with the Lord's help (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9) (Romans 13:14). In 1 John 5, the brethren are praying for this believer to have victory (life) over their sin as this believer confesses their sin (Note: Grievous sin are sins the Bible warns with punishment by hellfire, or spiritual death, etc.; These would be sins like murder, hate, adultery, theft, idolatry, etc.). If these sins are confessed with the intention of forsaking them (so as to overcome them), the individual is not abiding in spiritual death.

#2. Paul ignores the warnings of the Spirit and Psalms 19:12.
Psalms 19:12 says, "Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults." I believe these would be faults of character or minor errors that a person might make with people. Example: A person may not be a great listener, and they do not allow others to speak like they should. By not listening to others may come off a little like they do not care (even though they care in their own way or a different way). Paul wanted to go to Jerusalem. The Spirit warned Paul not to go. He was still determined to go because he loved His fellow Jews and wanted them to know the love of Jesus. The Spirit told the brethren that Paul will be imprisoned by his going to Jerusalem. The brethren warned Paul not to go. They were in tears and loved him and begged him not to go. But Paul did not listen. He would not hear them. He did not want to hear it. Fault of character. Hidden fault. Minor error of his character. It is not something that condemned him (See Acts of the Apostles 21, and read this article here by Ray Stedman; Note: There is even a better write up than this one by Bible commentator James Boice here; Please keep in mind I do not share their views on Soteriology, though; I merely agree with their view on what happened with Paul in Acts of the Apostles 21).

#3. The Command to Be Baptized.
Paul says Christ sent him not to baptize but to preach the gospel (1 Corinthians 1:17). If it was essential to salvation, then why would Paul say something like this? In 1 Peter 3:21: Peter says baptism is not for the putting away of the filth of the flesh. If you were to turn to 2 Corinthians 7:1, you would see that it uses similar wording ("filthiness of the flesh") that is clearly in reference to sin. So Peter is saying that baptism is not for the putting away of "sin" [i.e. filth of the flesh]. In other words, baptism is not a command that if disobeyed, leads to spiritual death.

#4. The Least of These Commands in Matthew 5:19.
We know that 1 John 5:16-17 declares that there is a sin not unto death. So if this is the case, we should expect to see other testimonies of this kind of thing in God's Word.

“Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:19).
​

This was said by the Lord Jesus at the sermon on the mount. Jesus was not referring to the 613 Torah laws but He was referring to the New Commands He was giving at the sermon on the mount, etc.; Granted, I am not encouraging anyone to break the Lord's commands (even the commands that do not appear to be a major violation of loving God and others), but our Lord's words have to still hold true in Matthew 5:19. Meaning, there are going to be believers who are in the Kingdom and they taught others that they could break the least of Jesus' commandments. How can they be in the kingdom?

Anyways, what could be a possible least command that Jesus is referring to? Well, one possible example would be the command to Rejoice when men persecute you or falsely accuse you of evil in Matthew 5:11-12. For it does not seem like a major violation of loving God and others if we fail to obey this instruction.

#5. Punishment of sins in earthly courts vs. a sin that leads to hellfire (Matthew 5:22). Jesus described to us the difference between death-sins vs. non-death sins in Matthew 5:22.

“But I say to you that everyone who continues to be angry with his brother or harbors malice against him shall be guilty before the court; and whoever speaks [contemptuously and insultingly] to his brother, ‘Raca (You empty-headed idiot)!’ shall be guilty before the supreme court (Sanhedrin); and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of the fiery hell.” (Matthew 5:22) (AMP).
​

The words in blue above are “non-death sins” because they are punishment in earthly courts. The words in red above is a “death sin” because it is punishment in hellfire in the afterlife.
​

(Continued in next post):

 

[Bible Highlighter]

#6. Accidental manslaughter and being able to flee to cities of refuge (Deuteronomy 19:1-13); Contrast this with intentional murder which results in capital punishment (See: Deuteronomy 19:21, Numbers 35:31).

#7. Adam’s Inherited Sin (Involving babies that die).
I believe Adam’s Inherited Sin Leads all mankind to physically die. Adam’s sin also opened the door for all men and women to fall into spiritual death and condemnation. But we know according to Scripture and the goodness of God that if a baby dies in this world, they are saved. For King David knew that he would see his unborn child again (2 Samuel 12:23), and Jesus says that children are of the Kingdom of God (Luke 18:16). So how are they saved if Adam brought death? Well, Jesus reversed the curse of spiritual death involving the sin of Adam. The Promised Messiah was the promise of God of salvation to men. So if a baby dies, they will be saved. God is not willing that any should perish. Jesus died for our sins because God loves us. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son. But the point here is that if babies are saved, and they are doomed to die physically at some point in their life (either as a baby or an adult) by Adam’s sin, we should realize that the stain of spiritual death from Adam did not take hold onto the lives of babies because of the Messiah. So the sin of Adam passing down spiritual death does not harm a baby. It’s a sin not unto death. Now, the fallen nature was passed down, and thus when that baby grows up, they will sin when they are faced with the knowledge of good and evil. But this is why Jesus came. To set the captives free from sin and death. For Jesus not only came to forgive our sins, but He came to give us a new heart, and new desires to live a new life in Him. A life that is not enslaved to grievous sin that brings spiritual death. Side Note: Now, did spiritual death take hold upon Adam? I believe it did because God said that he would die in the day he would eat of the tree (he was commanded to not eat). Did Adam drop dead physically when he ate of the wrong tree? Surely not. So this means Adam died spiritually. Also, I believe the promise of the Messiah Jesus reversed the curse of Adam. For Jesus took on our sins in the Garden and died in our place for our sins. This was spiritual. So if Jesus never died for our sins, all of mankind would be doomed spiritually (including babies that die). Jesus is the Savior. Jesus deserves all the glory.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Php 3:4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
Php 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Php 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
Php 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Php 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Php 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Php 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Straining Toward the Goal
Php 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect:....as most here unashamedly claim...

but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Php 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Php 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
Is Paul, himself not perfect, saying the others are perfect?

perfect] An adjective, not a perfect participle, as was the kindred word (“perfected”) in Php_3:12.—Is there a contradiction between this place and that? On the surface, but not really. The Apostle appears to be taking up the favourite word of teachers who upheld some phase of “perfectionism,” and using it, with loving irony, on the side of truth; as if to say, “Are you, are we, ideal Christians, perfect Christians, all that Christians should be? Then among the things that should be in our character is a holy discontent with, and criticism of, our own present attainment.

The man in this sense ‘perfect’ will be sure to think himself not perfected.”—And it is important to remember that the Greek word rendered “perfect” is an elastic word. It may mean “adult,” “mature,” as against infantine; cp. Heb_5:13-14.

A “perfect” Christian in this respect may have spiritual faculty well developed, and yet be very far from “perfected” in spiritual character.—Such considerations, in the light of this whole passage, will do anything for such a Christian rather than teach him to tolerate sin in himself; they will at once keep him humble and contrite, and animate him to ever fresh developments in and by Christ.

Do you understand?
J.

No I don’t understand. We are running a race of trust. That’s our only part to examine - are we really in trust. He will do the rest, through our trust. We are to help build up each other’s trust (edify) so that we CAN enter in. If a man is in anger at the circumstances he finds himself in or is in worry over money or saving up more than enough for the day or even worries about anything really, he is not in trust and will not go further with God. We are wandering in the desert, saying we trust but proving we don’t. And a spy is in here this very day who has entered in and seen the place prepared for us that we can enter in right now, not when we die but right now. He has seen that place of rest, he has walked there, but most will not accept his testimony and are too fearful to grab onto what he says and insist that wandering in this place is all there is. You yourself even have gnashed at him with your own teeth and lips. Only one thing prevented Israel from entering the place and the rest prepared for them. It is the same thing that prevents us from entering in now. And there are many who refuse to enter in and work to prevent others from entering in by saying we cannot enter in if we trust and begin walking.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
See here?

Okay, you win. There is only groaning in this life and no rest to enter into now through trust. There is only groaning and then death but no entering into the kingdom of God now. Has that made you happy?

 

[Johann]

No I don’t understand. We are running a race of trust. That’s our only part to examine - are we really in trust. He will do the rest, through our trust. We are to help build up each other’s trust (edify) so that we CAN enter in. If a man is in anger at the circumstances he finds himself in or is in worry over money or saving up more than enough for the day or even worries about anything really, he is not in trust and will not go further with God. We are wandering in the desert, saying we trust but proving we don’t. And a spy is in here this very day who has entered in and seen the place prepared for us that we can enter in right now, not when we die but right now. He has seen that place of rest, he has walked there, but most will not accept his testimony and are too fearful to grab onto what he says and insist that wandering in this place is all there is. You yourself even have gnashed at him with your own teeth and lips. Only one thing prevented Israel from entering the place and the rest prepared for them. It is the same thing that prevents us from entering in now. And there are many who refuse to enter in and work to prevent others from entering in by saying we cannot enter in if we trust and begin walking.

My time here is short.
I don't have time nor the patience for this.
J.