Could God Save Everybody If He Wanted To?

[jiggyfly]

I think it comes down to this: if God allowd unloving people in heaven, and evildoers, of bad character, there would be no justice for the righteous, who would once again have to suffer at the hand of the wicked!

God is patient, and he wishes for none to perish, and so he seeks out that all would see and turn from wickedness to righteousness. But men will not! They love their ways and the rewards they receive from it.

When the time of patience has come to it's end, God will execute judgment. For the sake of the righteous, he will put away the wicked man, and so both will have reaped what they sow.

So when does love come to an end?

 

[Duckybill]

So when does love come to an end?

When did God's love for Esau end? Or did it even ever exist?

Romans 9:13 (NKJV)
13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."

 

[Prentis]

So when does love come to an end?

Love never comes to an end! God is love, and has love for all... And he will be merciful to all. BUT that does not mean salvation to all.

By mercy, he destroys the wicked, and by mercy, he gives the righteous an abode on the earth. The saints have attained to glory, and so they receive this, the filthy have been wicked servants and they are cast out. They were a shame on his name; though they knew him, they did not obey him nor follow him, and thus they are put to shame, because they neglected to great a salvation.

 

[jiggyfly]

Love never comes to an end! God is love, and has love for all... And he will be merciful to all. BUT that does not mean salvation to all.

By mercy, he destroys the wicked, and by mercy, he gives the righteous an abode on the earth. The saints have attained to glory, and so they receive this, the filthy have been wicked servants and they are cast out. They were a shame on his name; though they knew him, they did not obey him nor follow him, and thus they are put to shame, because they neglected to great a salvation.

You may want to reconsider your previous post then in light of the truth that God's love never ends.
Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud. 1Cor. 13:4
The first thing that Paul mentions in his description of Love is that it is patient.

If love continues then so does patience.

When did God's love for Esau end? Or did it even ever exist?

Romans 9:13 (NKJV)
13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."

Ducky you need to study out somethings for yourself, use one of the many English bibles you have and at least try or you will never mature spiritually until you can begin to reason and understand on your own.

 

[Prentis]

As I said, Jiggyfly, even the destruction of the wicked is part of God's mercy.

But to separate the goodness of God from his severity, and take only the goodness is not wise. The Bible is full of verses whuch tell us the wicked will indeed be destroyed, and the unfaithful servant cast out. God is not a softie, but a Father! Something little understood today in North America because even fathers are supposed to just be 'nice guys'. God will not mocked, and he is like a hard trainer. He trains us very hard, so that only by faith we can get by, and he does it for our good. But our good requires that it would not be easy.

[sup]12[/sup] These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots; [sup]13[/sup] raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.
God is merciful, but will not be mocked, these two things should not be separated. He will be merciful, many many times, until the appointed time of judgment. If we continue to take his mercy as an opportunity to do more evil, never turning from our ways, or departing from iniquity... We don't enter!

His love is given to all in that he warns all.

 

[jiggyfly]

As I said, Jiggyfly, even the destruction of the wicked is part of God's mercy.

But to separate the goodness of God from his severity, and take only the goodness is not wise. The Bible is full of verses whuch tell us the wicked will indeed be destroyed, and the unfaithful servant cast out. God is not a softie, but a Father! Something little understood today in North America because even fathers are supposed to just be 'nice guys'. God will not mocked, and he is like a hard trainer. He trains us very hard, so that only by faith we can get by, and he does it for our good. But our good requires that it would not be easy.

[sup]12[/sup] These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots; [sup]13[/sup] raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.
God is merciful, but will not be mocked, these two things should not be separated. He will be merciful, many many times, until the appointed time of judgment. If we continue to take his mercy as an opportunity to do more evil, never turning from our ways, or departing from iniquity... We don't enter!

His love is given to all in that he warns all.

In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will: Eph. 1:11





As I said before Prentise do a study on olam, aion, and aionios and then we can talk more.

The idea that God cannot do something, or that God is limited in His
ability, is fairly common among Christians. Many think that God's
ability to act is limited by man's “free will.” People often think that
God either cannot override man's will or that He is incapable of
making man change his will to conform to the will of God.

So what is it that prevents God from saving all mankind? 2 Peter
3:9 says, that He is not willing that any should be lost, or perish.
Thus, if any are lost, it is not because it is the will of God.
The Apostle Paul says in 1 Tim. 2:4 that God “will have all men
to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” This, too,
defines the will of God for all men.

The problem is that evil men seem to thwart God's will, and God
seems to be powerless to do anything about it. How powerful is God,
anyway?

Logabe

Like the scriptures you posted Logabe.

 

[Prentis]

That verse only helps you if you assume the meaning of 'his will', jiggyfly

God gives us enough freedom to choose destruction, and enough love to turn from it.

 

[veteran]

To truly understand why God has foretold the future destruction of the wicked, one would first have to understand what the first rebellion was about, and when.

 

[us2are1]

I said if HE wanted to, not me.

The Lord God has said what He will do in scripture. None of it is secret to those who have eyes to see and ears to hear.

So back to reality. He can not save everyone because He has said that He will not.

 

[jiggyfly]

That verse only helps you if you assume the meaning of 'his will', jiggyfly

God gives us enough freedom to choose destruction, and enough love to turn from it.

Yes indeed so look at Logabe's post

 

[Duckybill]

Ducky you need to study out somethings for yourself, use one of the many English bibles you have and at least try or you will never mature spiritually until you can begin to reason and understand on your own.

I cited Scripture Jiggy.

 

[Duckybill]

He can not save everyone because He has said that He will not.

I agree with that statement. But He could have saved everyone if He chose to do so beforehand.

 

[logabe]

And I say amen to that! God will do just what He has planed to do....and he wont check with us first!!!

In Isaiah 45:23 God says, “I have sworn by Myself [by my own name]
. . . that unto Me every knee will bow and every tongue will swear
allegiance to Me.”

This is quoted by the apostle Paul in Phil. 2:10, 11, saying, “ at the
name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and
things in earth, and things under the earth; and that every tongue
should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the
Father.”

The question is this: Is God able to fulfill this oath, or is it an idle boast?
Col. 1:16 tells us that,

16 “by Him were all things created, that are in heaven,
and that are in earth, visible and invisible . . . all things
were created by Him and for Him.”

Then a few verses later in verse 20, we read that Jesus Christ, by His death
on the cross,

20 “has reconciled all things unto Himself . . . whether
they are things in earth or things in heaven.”

In other words, Paul's use of the term “all things” really does mean all things.
He not only created all things, but He also has reconciled all things to Himself.
His death on the cross was not merely effective for a few, but for the whole of
creation. It is not slated for destruction, but to house the glory of God.

Paul speaks again in 1 Cor. 15:22-28 of the time when all men will be raised
from the dead for judgment and to receive the rewards due them. Paul says
that Jesus Christ must reign over the earth until all enemies have been
subdued—that is, until no one disagrees with Him and His divine law. Everyone
will ultimately come into agreement that God really is a good and a just God.
To know Him is to love Him.

Then Paul says that the final enemy to be destroyed is death. Only then will
mankind be able to enjoy fully the presence of God. Only then will all the earth
be full of His glory.

Paul says in verse 28 that “God will be all in all.” His full presence will not be
in just a few people, nor will He dispense just a little of His glory in all men.
Rather, His full glory will radiate out of all men.

That is the plan. And God is indeed able to perform His will. Many are
now unwilling to go along with the plan, because they just don’t understand
that God is able, for if they knew the glory that God had prepared for them,
they would not hesitate to avail themselves of the redemption that Jesus has
provided by His death on the cross.

I close with John's vision in Rev. 5:13,

13 “and every creature which is in heaven and on the earth
and under the earth, and all that are in the sea, and all that
are in them, I heard saying, ‘Blessing and honor, and glory,
and power be unto Him that sits upon the throne, and unto
the Lamb [Jesus] for the ages of the ages'.”

This is a picture of the goal of history and the divine plan for His creation. No
one will be grumbling that a tyrant has come to power and ought to be
overthrown. All will know the love that God has for them and for all mankind.
It is a happy scene. There are no tortured screams coming from an imagined
pit of hell. God really is able to save all mankind—and He intends to do it.

Logabe

 

[logabe]

Love never comes to an end! God is love, and has love for all... And he will be merciful to all. BUT that does not mean salvation to all.

By mercy, he destroys the wicked, and by mercy, he gives the righteous an abode on the earth. The saints have attained to glory, and so they receive this, the filthy have been wicked servants and they are cast out. They were a shame on his name; though they knew him, they did not obey him nor follow him, and thus they are put to shame, because they neglected to great a salvation.

Let's talk about that Love for a minute.

The creation itself groans today under the oppression of sin, and it anxiously
awaits the manifestation of the sons of God (Rom. 8:19). Not only mankind,
but everything in creation will be affected by the righteous act of Jesus Christ.
Even as Adam was given dominion over all things and given headship over all,
so also Christ, the Last Adam, has been given headship over all.

When Adam sinned, he and his wife and children were sold to pay the debt that
he could not pay. In fact, his entire estate was sold to pay his debt, and it was
still insufficient to pay the debt. Jesus spoke of this in a parable in Matt. 18:25,

25 But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord
commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children
AND ALL THAT HE HAD, and repayment to be made.

Jesus came as the last Adam to reverse the curse and pay the full debt that
Adam could not pay. In doing so, He redeemed not only Adam, but his wife and
children (descendants) and the entire estate (the creation). Everything that was
lost in Adam is redeemed in Christ. Hence, 1 John 2:2 says,

2 and He Himself is the propitiation [covering] for our sins;
and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

In Matthew 13:44 Jesus told a short parable to teach us how extensive was the
effect of His work on the cross:

44 The kingdom of heaven is like a treasure hidden in the
field, which a man found and hid; and from joy over it he
goes and sells all that he has, and buys that field.

In verse 38 Jesus said that “the field is the world.” We know from Exodus 19:5
that Israel was God's peculiar treasure. Jesus Himself is the “man” in the parable,
who searches and finds the lost sheep of the House of Israel (Ezekiel 34:11). When
a man stumbles upon treasure buried in a field, the treasure rightfully belongs to the
one who owns the field. For this reason, the man in the parable could not simply
take the treasure without first buying the field. To do so would be theft.

So Jesus found Israel, and in order to obtain that “peculiar treasure,” He purchased
the field—THE WORLD. Thus, whether one interprets the treasure to be Israel as a
nation or Christians, they represent a portion of mankind hidden in the world.
Regardless of our view, one thing is clear: Jesus purchased the whole world in order
to obtain the treasure.

All things were put under Adam's authority (Gen. 1:26-28). Psalm 8:6 repeats this,
"Thou hast put all things under his feet." Adam lost it all, but the Last Adam has
redeemed it all. Thus the New Testament applies this to Christ in Heb. 2:6-8, under
whose feet all things have now been rightfully subjected. In fact, Psalm 8:6 is the
most often quoted Scripture in the New Testament. For this reason it ought to be
seen as one of the most important concepts to study.

Logabe

 

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What think ye?

Romans 9:11-13 (NKJV)
11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger." 13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."

Duckbill,
There is an unfortunate reality that accompanies the verse you are using in discussions about the topic you have laid out. The sad reality is the few know why God "rejected" Esau. It makes the topic more difficult to discuss when you do not know why God did this even before Esau was born and what it was that God really hated.

Let me just say it simply. God rejected all of these first born.
Adam.
Cain
Ishmael
Esau
In favor of the second born.
Jesus (Our lord and savior.)
Abel
Isaac
Jacob

Furthermore he did not allow Moses to lead the people into into the promised land. Instead it was Yehshua (Joshua) which is our lord and saviors name who lead the people into the promised land. You could throw Saul and David in there also if you wanted.

In all of these scenario's (There are probably more.) God is rejecting the first in favor of the second. So what is this all about? God is prophesying the first verses second covenants through the lives of these people. (Others who may read this don't get in a huff just yet.) This is where the Apostle Paul found his mystery that was hid from ages and generations, that the gentiles should be fellow heirs with the Jews. This is how it was hidden, in plain view. In the lives of these people. Paul's preaching of this made him the most targeted of all the Apostles. 40 men took and oath to not eat or drink till they have killed him? Not even Jesus got this treatment.

This article has been number 1-3 on MSN and Yahoo for 10 years. (last I looked) Always climbs back to the same status with Google when they change their methods. It goes over this subject in detail and has had a tremendous God glorififying effect on those who have read it. If you do make sure and go to all the hyperlinks. They are just as important as the main article. You will not believe how much of Paul's writings are a direct reference to what he discovered in Genesis. When people who primarily minister to Muslims read the article you would think they just discovered a pot of Gold. (They did!)

http://www.wordservice.org/Symbolisms%20in%20Genesis/bs1000.htm

Dan

 

[brionne]

not everyone wants to do the things required, so even if God wanted to, he couldnt save them as he would be bypassing his own judicial laws and he can never break his own laws.

Im sure he wants all people to be saved, but the truth is he knows already that even some who enter Gods paradise and see Gods wonders will still later reject him.
Revelation 20:7 Now as soon as the thousand years have been ended, Satan will be let loose out of his prison, 8 and he will go out to mislead those nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Ma′gog, to gather them together for the war. The number of these is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they advanced over the breadth of the earth and encircled the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city. But fire came down out of heaven and devoured them. 10 And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur, where both the wild beast and the false prophet [already were]; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[jiggyfly]

To quote the most spiritual person I know, "Humanly speaking, it is impossible. But not with God. Everything is possible with God."

 

[Duckybill]

To quote the most spiritual person I know, "Humanly speaking, it is impossible. But not with God. Everything is possible with God."

It's not possible for God to lie.

 

[THE Gypsy]

I don't think the question was 'will God save everyone'....but could He. No, He will not save everyone, as Tom said...that would go against His nature...that of goodness, holiness and justice.
But talking just 'could'...as in, what is God capable of....I think we can all agree that God is capable of anything and everything! Things that we are too small to even grasp, He can do!

Well said. It's not a matter of whether God "can". He has made the provision for everyone, however...The choice is up to us.

 

[biggandyy]

If he judges a person as worthy of saving, he will save them. God knows us very intimately, he sees into our hearts and he draws us if we have a heart that can be drawn.


Jesus says at John 6:44 No man can come to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him

Romans 9:14 What shall we say, then? Is there injustice with God? Never may that become so! 15 For he says to Moses: “I will have mercy upon whomever I do have mercy, and I will show compassion to whomever I do show compassion.” 16 So, then, it depends, not upon the one wishing nor upon the one running, but upon God, who has mercy.

But not everyone has a heart worthy of God. Pharaoh was an example of one of those who's heart was not right.
17 For the Scripture says to Phar′aoh: “For this very cause I have let you remain, that in connection with you I may show my power, and that my name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 So, then, upon whom he wishes he has mercy, but whom he wishes he lets become obstinate

Your statement "If he judges a person as worthy of saving, he will save them..." is actually disproved by the verses you cite and your statement is false in this manner:

The common verse between them is from the OT, "I [The Lord] will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy..." In both instances, MERCY being the topic in question, I must ask the question, "Is judgment executed by showing mercy?"

Remember, mercy (in the theological AND civil sense) is the "withholding of a deserved punishment". In order to receive mercy the necessary precondition must exist that we are guilty of some transgression that requires punishment. Mercy is UNDESERVED abrogation of our deserved punishment. Mercy CAN NOT be deserved because if it were, then it ceases to be mercy and is rather JUSTICE.

So the question becomes, can a person be be WORTHY of MERCY? Manifestly one can not. Mercy is a decision made by God entirely upon His good will and pleasure, see EPH 1:5.

Now, if mercy is not a condition for judgment (vis-a-vis your initial statement), is the withholding of mercy by God dependent upon the actions of the sinner? Well, no, since we are already guilty, and mercy being a voluntary withholding of punishment by the Judge independent of actions or worthiness of the defendant, the withholding of mercy (i.e. execution of judgment) is already a foregone state. Mercy is a condition that supersedes the already righteous judgment of guilt of the sinner.

Now, since we can (hopefully) see that mercy is not something we can exert influence upon for our own benefit, the question, "Could God Save Everybody If He Wanted To" can be rephrased, "Was the Atonement sufficient for all Mankind?" THAT sounds like a Calvin inspired debate if ever I heard one!

My take, Jesus, being God, offered an INFINITE sacrifice for ALL SIN, that is, IF God decided He were to have mercy on every soul who ever lived, the sacrifice of Christ would be sufficient for that decision.

HOWEVER... God is not just defined by His Mercy. His character is also defined by His Justice. Would Justice be served by applying the Blood of Christ to everyone? I submit the answer is NO, for the simple reason if ALL were to be forgiven then the Law was for naught and God's Word to Adam would be FALSE (...you will SURELY die...).

God's justice MUST be served lest His Word is made null. So, in potentia, the Blood of Christ is potent enough to cover every sin ever committed by every soul dead, alive, and yet to be born. But in usum the Blood is APPLIED to those whom God PRE-destined according to His good will and pleasure (again Ephesians 1).