John 1:1 - Jesus is the Father or he's not the one true God?

[PinSeeker]

This ignoring is terribly misdirected:

1. "Non-trinitarians" read John 1:1 ~ "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" ~ and then ignore, as non-trinitarians do, John 1:14-18 ~ "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen His glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth... For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has ever seen God; the only God, Who is at the Father’s side, He has made him known."

2. Jesus is the Son of God and the Son of Man. "Non-trinitarians" ignore the latter.

3. "Non-trinitarians" are quick to point out John 17:3-4 ~ "And this is eternal life, that they know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ Whom You have sent. I glorified You on earth, having accomplished the work that You gave Me to do." but ignore John 17:5 ~ "And now, Father, glorify Me in Your own presence with the glory that I had with You before the world existed."

I've brought this up several times, only to meet with silence, which not surprising in the least.

Grace and peace to all.

 

[Rich R]

How else can I write that sentence and it make any sense within the point that I am making?

How can you explain a son being his own father? You can't. That's the whole point. But we can ignore, the many clear verses that would make it quite impossible for Jesus to be God (such as the 2 in the OP), and just accept that which defies all the normal meaig of simple words, phrases, and concepts.

THEY, Jesus and the Father, are ONE.

As are we in John 17:21. Maybe being "one" means something other than what the trinity doctrine assumes?

I am explaining the verse John 14:23 so I am limited by what the verse says and the point that I am making.

There's no reason to feel limited so long as we use the normal meaning of the simple words used in this verse, namely, "my," "we," and "our." Normally the word "my" refers to the person who said it, while "we" and "our" indicate at least one other person who is NOT the person speaking.

I see no fault in what I wrote at all.

Well, tradition has a way of obscuring things, so I believe you on this point. As a former Trinitarian for many years, I myself saw nothing wrong with saying pretty much what you've said until day somebody came and pointed out many of the same flaws in the trinity as I'm pointing out here. At that time I took an honest look at the scriptures and nothing but the scriptures. Then I saw a lot of what I had been saying to be wrong. I just changed my mind and that was that!

 

[PinSeeker]

1 Cor 8:6,

But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.​

I said that Paul said that the one God is the Father.

Yes, you have said that, but Paul's purpose was to refute the widely held understanding of the day that there was more than one (many) gods and more than one (many) lords (polytheism).

How is that my "personal" view?

I would characterize it not merely as your personal view but in a much harsher way.

You are saying that Jesus is God, thereby making him the Father.

This is mere foisting and worth nothing. Nobody is saying the Son is the Father. But they are one, as Jesus Himself says ("I and the Father are one" ~ John 10:30).

Grace and peace to you, Rich.

 

[GEN2REV]

No, the Bible tells us ~ Jesus, specifically, in John 14 ~ that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost/Spirit are the three Persons of the one true (triune) Jehovah.

Lol. Ok.

Would it be too much trouble for you to post the actual verse that makes that claim instead of throwing out an entire chapter so as to be purposely vague?

And these three Persons have different roles

Every role that you see spoken of in the Bible for any of the three is written elsewhere about one or more of the others. That statement is FALSE.

 

[Rich R]

Because you're ignoring the first verse of that passage that I have repeatedly posted.

John 14:21 Jesus makes it clear that HE (Jesus Christ ALONE) will manifest Himself to those who have and obey the Commandments. When asked to clarify, THEN He elaborates in John 14:23 the teaching/understanding that He AND THE FATHER are included in HIM (Jesus) coming to live with us. Seriously, you have to strain to not see the Truth that this passage is presenting.No, on the contrary. It absolutely IS literal; and the best way to understand how that's possible is WITH John 14:21-23.

The ONE Spirit that IS Jesus Christ AND the Father Romans 8:9 lives in each and every one of us who HAVE the Holy Spirit.

It's all right there and it ALL makes sense in light of the Scripture that explains it.

John 14:21,

He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
​

When you talk about your father, as Jesus did here (my Father), do people understand you to be saying you are your father? If so, I see no sense whatsoever! My father is a different person than I am. I think that's true of everybody's father.

John 14:23,

Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
​

Don't you see that Jesus is talking about both himself and his Father when he uses the pronouns "we" and "our?" Two people with no hint they are really one person.

 

[ChristisGod]

John 17:3,

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
​

Who is the "thee" that is the only true God? Who was Jesus talking to when he said this?

John 17:1,

These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:​

So I am saying that Jesus was not talking to himself, but to his Father when he called Him the only true God. Jesus said that his Father is the only true God. How is that my "personal" view? Isn't that just what the verse says? Where's the eisegesis there?

1 Cor 8:6,

But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.​

I said that Paul said that the one God is the Father. How is that my "personal" view? Where's the eisegesis there?

You are saying that Jesus is God, thereby making him the Father. With all due respect, I'd say that's about eisegesis as eisegesis ever gets!

I see you ran away from John 17:5 and the Son existing with the Father before creation sharing the same GLORY with Him yet YHWH declares He will not share His glory with anyone .

And you ignore eternal life is only found in God yet Jesus declares in John 17:3 that He is co-equal with the Father in that regard .

Another unitarian failure .

hope this helps !!!

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

But your still going by the premise of three persons.

The following are three different accounts of the very same subject, which shows that the ONE ETERNAL Spirit functions as Father, Son AND Holy Ghost but are not three persons...


Matthew 10:17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
[18] And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.
[19] But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
[20] For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

Mark 13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.
[10] And the gospel must first be published among all nations.
[11] But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

Luke 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
[13] And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
[14] Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
[15] For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

Father, Son and Holy Spirit will do all what God does. There is a Oneness (modal Theology) that some believe . I don't agree with that, how it works.
All three persons were present at Jesus' baptism simultaneously. We are baptized also in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy SPIRIT. There is an obvious distinction between the three persons. Jesus prayed to the Father then promed that the Father would send another Helper/ Counselor and that Jesus must go for Him to come. The Holy Spirit teaches all things that Jesus taught. In fact we have a relationship with ALL THREE ... that is Trinitarians do.

 

[GEN2REV]

How can you explain a son being his own father?

You dodged my question again, Roger. - I mean, Richard.

Maybe being "one" means something other than what the trinity doctrine assumes?

Why, yes! Yes it does!

As a matter of fact, being ONE means being one, single, solitary individual - as opposed to what the trinity cult doctrine teaches that it means.

And what do ya know? Speaking of words meaning "the normal meaning of simple words", I'd bet the Webster's Dictionary has my back on that definition.

As a former Trinitarian for many years, I myself saw nothing wrong with saying pretty much what you've said until day somebody came and pointed out many of the same flaws in the trinity as I'm pointing out here. At that time I took an honest look at the scriptures and nothing but the scriptures. Then I saw a lot of what I had been saying to be wrong. I just changed my mind and that was that!

Except that your belief in the binary/duo of God and the Son has COUNTLESS holes in its doctrine.

Like explaining how Jesus, if not God, could've done ALL that He did PRIOR, DURING AND AFTER, His fleshly incarnation.

Sorry, bub. Just doesn't even come close to aligning with Scripture.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Seriously, you have no problem with Jesus being the Father?

No. I have no problem with Jesus being God in human form. When He made Himself nothing and became a servant, as the verse says, He had to rely on the Holy Spirit for everything, just as we do. This is how it is said that the Father is greater than He. I believe ALL the verses.

 

[PinSeeker]

Would it be too much trouble for you to post the actual verse that makes that claim instead of throwing out an entire chapter so as to be purposely vague?

It is pretty much the entire chapter, GEN2REV. I was not being purposely (or unpurposefully) vague in any shape, form, or fashion. That it's vague in some way to you... that I get, but can't do anything about, really.

Every role that you see spoken of in the Bible for any of the three is written elsewhere about one or more of the others.

No, the Father, the Son, and the Spirit have different roles/functions, just as (but in a greater way of course) a husband and wife joined in marriage have different roles/functions, and just as all the individual members of the Body of Christ have different roles/functions (gifts of the Spirit). The purpose is common, thus perfect unity. But the roles are individual. As I said, the Members of the triune Jehovah God perform these different roles/functions but work together in sovereign wisdom, power, and love to achieve this one purpose, the glory of the triune Jehovah and the salvation of a chosen people.

PinSeeker: The Father, the Son, and the Spirit have different roles...​

That statement is FALSE.

Well, no it's not. See above. But far be it from me to deprive you of your opinion. As if I could do that anyway...

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Rich R]

Yes, you have said that, but Paul's purpose was to refute the widely held understanding of the day that there was more than one (many) gods and more than one (many) lords (polytheism).

True as far as you went, but he went on to identify exactly who the true God is, namely the Father. By sheer logic, if Jesus is God, and only the Father is God, then Jesus is the Father. It's got nothing to do with my personal view.

I would characterize it not merely as your personal view but in a much harsher way.

Easy to say, harder to prove.

This is mere foisting and worth nothing. Nobody is saying the Son is the Father. But they are one, as Jesus Himself says ("I and the Father are one" ~ John 10:30).

Grace and peace to you, Rich.

Nobody is saying the Son is the Father? Well, if we accept Jesus's and Paul's statements the the Father is the only true God, while saying that Jesus is God...how is that not making Jesus the Father? The word "only" has a meaning.

Haven't I mentioned more than once that we are also one? But you're you and I'm me. We are two people. Maybe being "one" means something other than two people literally being one and the same person? Might want to investigate that.

 

[GEN2REV]

When you talk about your father, as Jesus did here (my Father), do people understand you to be saying you are your father? If so, I see no sense whatsoever! My father is a different person than I am. I think that's true of everybody's father.

Is God your dad, rich? Did He plant His supernatural seed into your mother's egg?

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and bet that is not the case. And it is not the case for any of those everybodies you are referring to.

Don't you see that Jesus is talking about both himself and his Father when he uses the pronouns "we" and "our?" Two people with no hint they are really one person.

Well, let's see.

Let's take it to Scripture once again. See if anything rattles loose in that head of yours.

"I and the Father ARE ONE."
John 10:30
"I will manifest MY ... SELF (self = personal identification) to him ..."
John 14:21
What exactly do you mean when you say this, Jesus?
John 14:22
I mean that I and the Father will come to live with him ..."
John 14:23

Jesus speaking: Since you and I are the same person, Father, let's take all those who believe in us, and have our single, solitary, sovereign Spirit within them, and make them all one as well - in the sense that they will all have our Spirit in each and every one of them; the same exact Spirit that IS you and I, Father, will dwell within them, just as we spoke of in John 14:23.
John 17:21

It's ok if you just can't get it, Roger. The Bible says those without the Holy Spirit are literally incapable of understanding these things of the Spirit. See, that's why you keep making examples of earthy scenarios like everybody's father and son being two people. That's just not spiritual at all, that's earthly.

The things of the Spirit are only understood by those who actually HAVE the Holy Spirit of God (Jesus and the Father as ONE individual) living inside of them.
1 Corinthians 2:14

 

[Rich R]

No. I have no problem with Jesus being God in human form. When He made Himself nothing and became a servant, as the verse says, He had to rely on the Holy Spirit for everything, just as we do. This is how it is said that the Father is greater than He. I believe ALL the verses.

Well, I think John actually said the logos was made flesh. Understanding the logos involves much more than hearing it is Jesus in pre-incarnate form from some pulpit and just running with it. It requires some amount of independent research and study. But it can be known.

I trust you also believe Philippians 2:5 which says we should have the same mind as Christ. If it's in Jesus' mind that he is God, then I guess it should also be in our minds.

Jesus having to rely on the Holy Spirit is your proof that the Father is greater than Jesus. OK, we'll go with that. It shows a lot of imagination. But in so saying, you just admitted one part of God to be greater than another part of God.

 

[GEN2REV]

No, the Father, the Son, and the Spirit have different roles, just as (but in a greater way of course) a husband and wife joined in marriage have different roles, and just as all the individual members of the Body of Christ have different roles (gifts of the Spirit). The purpose is common, thus perfect unity. But the roles are individual. As I said

1. The Father and the Son ARE the same; and HAVE the same roles. I will provide MANY Scriptures to bolster this.
2. The Spirit IS the Father and Son as I have already proven beyond the shadow of a doubt with John 14:21-23.

Whenever you want to commit to enough honesty and integrity to truly take the time to look at each verse, I have pages full of verses to post that prove the Father and Son have IDENTICAL titles, roles, accomplishments, etc.

Just say the word and I will put together the post. I'm sure there are hundreds more just like you that would bet your left n .... arms ... that these Scriptures don't exist.

They absolutely do.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Well, I think John actually said the logos was made flesh. Understanding the logos involves much more than hearing it is Jesus in pre-incarnate form from some pulpit and just running with it. It requires some amount of independent research and study. But it can be known.

I trust you also believe Philippians 2:5 which says we should have the same mind as Christ. If it's in Jesus' mind that he is God, then I guess it should also be in our minds.

Jesus having to rely on the Holy Spirit is your proof that the Father is greater than Jesus. OK, we'll go with that. It shows a lot of imagination. But in so saying, you just admitted one part of God to be greater than another part of God.

In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with Godsomething to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

This is the mindset we are to have. Not to use Gods gifts to our advantage but to serve others with. Whatever hijinks you were trying to get up to with quoting only part, I just don’t know.

 

[PinSeeker]

True as far as you went, but he went on to identify exactly who the true God is, namely the Father.

In His fleshly state, yes, absolutely. He emptied Himself of His deity... not that He no longer had it, but humbled Himself to the level of humanity for a time, even unto death on a cross... for our sake.

By sheer logic, if Jesus is God, and only the Father is God, then Jesus is the Father.

That's the problem. Your "logic."

Easy to say, harder to prove.

It's quite easy to prove purposeful ignorance. It has been done here several times, not just by me but by others.

Nobody is saying the Son is the Father? Well, if we accept Jesus's and Paul's statements the the Father is the only true God, while saying that Jesus is God...how is that not making Jesus the Father? The word "only" has a meaning.

Sure. See immediately above.

Haven't I mentioned more than once that we are also one? But you're you and I'm me. We are two people. Maybe being "one" means something other than two people literally being one and the same person? Might want to investigate that.

Yeah, I think we're in perfect agreement on at least this one thing, Rich. Can you and I be one in purpose? We can, can't we? Of course it's even much greater than just that. What do you think it means that my wife and I are one, as Paul says in Ephesians 5? Might want to investigate that...

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Rich R]

"I and the Father ARE ONE."

John 10:30
"I will manifest MY ... SELF (self = personal identification) to him ..."
John 14:21
What exactly do you mean when you say this, Jesus?
John 14:22
I mean that I and the Father will come to live with him ..."

John 14:23

Jesus speaking: Since you and I are the same person, Father,

How is "I AND the Father" the same as your addition, "you and I are the same person?" You've completely ignored the meaning of "and" in both the first clause and the second, while adding a completely foreign phrase to what Jesus said. But then again, you seem to have no trouble redefining the words "we" and "our" either.

John 14:23,

Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.​

Yes, God did implant pure seed in Mary's womb and thus Jesus was perfect from the start. God also created Lucifer and Adam as perfect beings. All of them, Jesus, Adam, and Lucifer had free will. Adam and Lucifer used theirs to disobey. Jesus, tempted just like you or I, could have also sinned and ruin his perfection, but he CHOSE to obey.

Heb 4:15,

For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin.​

Think for one second...Jesus was tempted in all points just like you and I. If you suddenly found out you were 100% God and 100% man, would those temptations become considerably different than they are now? Of course they would! God can't fall to temptation, so if Jesus is God then his temptations would have been nothing at all like ours and God would be a liar to suggest otherwise in Hebrews 4:15.

 

[PinSeeker]

1. The Father and the Son ARE the same; and HAVE the same roles.

So you seem to be saying what Rich is accusing trinitarians of, that the Son is the Father and the Father is the Son, that they are not two Persons, but one. Is that what you're saying?

2. The Spirit IS the Father and Son as I have already proven beyond the shadow of a doubt with John 14:21-23.

Okay, building from the question immediately above, is it your assertion that the three are not distinct Persons but one Person?

Whenever you want to commit to enough honesty and integrity to truly take the time to look at each verse...

Let's agree not to question each other's honesty and integrity, GEN2REV. Any question you have regarding mine is summarily dismissed.

I have pages full of verses to post that prove the Father and Son have IDENTICAL titles, roles, accomplishments, etc. Just say the word and I will put together the post.

The Word. (See what I did there?)

I'm sure there are hundreds more just like you that would bet your left n .... arms ... that these Scriptures don't exist. They absolutely do.

Well, Scripture (God's Word) certainly exists, and it's absolutely true... No need for any man to bet either one of his testicles or any other body part...

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Rich R]

In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with Godsomething to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

This is the mindset we are to have. Not to use Gods gifts to our advantage but to serve others with. Whatever hijinks you were trying to get up to with quoting only part, I just don’t know.

No hijinks. I can't quote the whole Bible, you know. You and I are actually in complete agreement on this. That's wonderful!

Forgive me for putting you in a box. Most who believe Jesus is God use Phil 2:6 as a "proof" verse, so I assumed you were doing that also.

We have been granted the power to do the things Jesus did and even greater works (John 14:12). We have been endued with power from on high (Luke 24:49). We are to use this power, not in self service, but in service to others. That's the mind Jesus had and the one we ought to have also.

"Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God (Phil 2:6)" is decidedly different than "Who, being God, thought it not robbery to be God:"

Much like learning the true meaning of "logos," Christians should also learn what "being in the form" of something means, as well as what "equal" means.

 

[Rich R]

I see you ran away from John 17:5 and the Son existing with the Father before creation sharing the same GLORY with Him yet YHWH declares He will not share His glory with anyone .

If I did, it was an oversight.

Eph 1:4,

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:​

And you ignore eternal life is only found in God yet Jesus declares in John 17:3 that He is co-equal with the Father in that regard .

Again, a simple innocent oversight.

John 17:3,

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
​

Where's the "co-equal" here? I see that we need to know Jesus AND God, as in Jesus is one person AND God is another person, just like I am one person AND you are another person. How many people show up at your house for dinner when they say, "My wife AND I would be glad to join you for dinner?"

Another unitarian failure .

Well, at least we know what simple words like "and," "we," "I," "me," and "you" mean.