John 1:1 - Jesus is the Father or he's not the one true God?

[Rich R]

People struggle with their individuality. In fact, so much so that this issue is a prideful argument pretty much unto death. Yes, I said "pride."

And God breaking things down into days and weeks and minutes and seconds; and different experiences, and parables, as any good parent does in baby talk...only makes it worse for some. So instead of learning by recognizing that all things have been unpacked for elementary understanding, we end up with different doctrines, and definitions--even different persons.

Wow--we ought to feel stupid!

The object however, is to understand all the little pieces, knowing that they are all information from and regarding the One.

Get repacking baby!

I'm not 100% sure of what you are saying. The issue is Jesus is either the Father or is he not the true God.

 

[GEN2REV]

you correctly mentioned the Jesus AND the Father, used the pronoun "their" and then stated, "they are one and the same." You don't see any problem with that? I guess it's fine so long as we ignore the normal meaning of words, grammar, and concepts. But wouldn't you think there would be a better solution?

How else can I write that sentence and it make any sense within the point that I am making?

THEY, Jesus and the Father, are ONE.

I am explaining the verse John 14:23 so I am limited by what the verse says and the point that I am making.

I see no fault in what I wrote at all.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Verse 14 there clarifies that it is Jesus being spoken of in John 1:1-4.

John 1:14

Yes. It’s so obvious who is being spoken of that it would seem impossible not to understand who is being spoken of if you understand English.

 

[dev553344]

Yes, Non-Trinitarians are serious to the point of not only ignoring particular sriptures, or misinterpreting them, but when they got too annoying and conflicting, changing them, adding to and taking away from them. (NWT)

I think the term that describes the OP position is called "Unitarian".

 

[Rich R]

The entire beginning of John is telling about Jesus. He calls Him the word, then calls Him the light, then says John the Baptist was sent to testify concerning Him. I rather think even an unbeliever who understands English could see that upon reading it. It’s reading comprehension. Even if you don’t understand WHY John calls Him the word and the light, an English reader can at least comprehend that John is talking about Jesus.

You want to keep having this argument, over and over again, that Jesus is not being spoken of there. Your entire “ministry” is that too much honor is shown to Jesus and that all the world has been tricked into going after Him. The entire book is about Him. All the law of Moses speaks of Him. All the prophets speak of Him. The entire New Testament is about Him. You hold in your hands a book that, from start to finish, is about Him. And when you read it, your conclusion and your “ministry” is that too much emphasis is put on Him. It would be completely puzzling but for the fact that He said, beware the teaching of men, the leaven of men.

I understand your point, but if you read the OP carefully, it is obvious that Jesus is either the Father of not the one true God.

I take it you are saying he is in fact the one true God. You've therefore made him the Father as per his own declaration in John 17:3 and Paul's declaration in 1 Cor 8:6. You have no problem with that?

I can truly understand why you don't want to keep having the argument, given it creates many problems in you mind.

 

[user]

"For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." Isaiah 9:6
Wrestle with that one. That's a big one, profound and deep. Difficult to discern without divine assistance. What you have there is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit wrapped up in ONE.

That verse states the Son's name(Jesus) shall be called:
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Jesus is the Father, Jesus is the Son, Jesus is the Holy Spirit - which is not "wrapped up in one" but IS ONE...

Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.
.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I understand your point, but if you read the OP carefully, it is obvious that Jesus is either the Father of not the one true God.

I take it you are saying he is in fact the one true God. You've therefore made him the Father as per his own declaration in John 17:3 and Paul's declaration in 1 Cor 8:6. You have no problem with that?

I can truly understand why you don't want to keep having the argument, given it creates many problems in you mind.

No, it doesn’t create problems in my mind. It creates problems in yours.

 

[APAK]

I think the term that describes the OP position is called "Unitarian".

Not all Unitarians are of the same cloth Devin.

For example, I do not agree with either the nonsense of a Bini-tarian or Trini-tarian view in John 1:1 or even the Unitarian JW version that are all at least intellectually dishonest imo. If there was one serious unbiased student of the Word on this thread or on others like this one, then there might eventually be traction made or found on this subject. Until that time folks will just poke holes in this serious area of scripture as they have done and move on. The owner of this thread is really challenging folks here and they are laughing at him, go figure. The height of ignorance.

 

[Rich R]

How else can I write that sentence and it make any sense within the point that I am making?

THEY, Jesus and the Father, are ONE.

I am explaining the verse John 14:23 so I am limited by what the verse says and the point that I am making.

I see no fault in what I wrote at all.

John 14:23 uses the pronouns "we" and "our" which normally means two people. Why does it mean one person here?

I trust you know Jesus also said we are all one in he and his Father.

John 17:21,

That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
​

Maybe being "one" shouldn't be taken literally? You've probably read something like, "the crowd acted as one..." That might offer a clue as to what Jesus was saying/

 

[Rich R]

No, it doesn’t create problems in my mind. It creates problems in yours.

Seriously, you have no problem with Jesus being the Father?

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

I think the term that describes the OP position is called "Unitarian".

Unitarian, Jehovah Witness, they are all in the same boat ...drifting ... uncertain of their salvation ... uncertain who God is.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

That verse states the Son's name(Jesus) shall be called:
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Jesus is the Father, Jesus is the Son, Jesus is the Holy Spirit - which is not "wrapped up in one" but IS ONE...

Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.
.

Okay you don't like "wrapped up", it's just a phrase people use to summarize, discribing totality, completeness, wholeness.

 

[dev553344]

Not all Unitarians are of the same cloth Devin.

For example, I do not agree with either the nonsense of a Bini-tarian or Trini-tarian view in John 1:1 or even the Unitarian JW version that are all at least intellectually dishonest imo. If there was one serious unbiased student of the Word on this thread or on others like this one, then there might eventually be traction made or found on this subject. Until that time folks will just poke holes in this serious area of scripture as they have done and move on. The owner of this thread is really challenging folks here and they are laughing at him, go figure. The height of ignorance.

I believe in the Father, The Son and the Holy Ghost. My doctrine is found in the bible. I believe the Almighty God is the Father. And I believe the Son is the Savior. I also believe that Jesus has God powers so he is considered part of God and is acting God. You can find these beliefs in the bible.

But to say Jesus is the Father, that is heresy. And hopefully won't be taught here. And if it is then I will share my beliefs so readers can see I differ in my beliefs.

 

[APAK]

I believe in the Father, The Son and the Holy Ghost. My doctrine is found in the bible. I believe the Almighty God is the Father. And I believe the Son is the Savior. I also believe that Jesus has God powers so he is considered part of God and is an acting God. You can find these beliefs in the bible.

But to say Jesus is the Father, that is heresy. And hopefully won't be taught here. And if it is then I will share my beliefs so readers can see I differ in my beliefs.

No, I believe this thread points to the only one God Almighty, the Father of us all, and his Son. And both being as one, in purpose, mind and action. Folks with their creeds and dogma and extra doctrine add much to the existing simplicity of scripture on this subject, as to confuse and even destroy the profound meaning of these two: God the Father and his Son. This is 100 percent scriptural. Why they get confused and abused God, the Father only knows!

 

[ChristisGod]

I'm not 100% sure of what you are saying. The issue is Jesus is either the Father or is he not the true God.

He is not the Father ( sabellianism/ modalism herersy) and He is the True God 1 John 5:20- Christianity

When we look at the overwhelming evidence from Johns writings which I will show below we can see a much different picture from the Apostle John regarding Christs identity as the true God and Eternal Life. Also we see Christs own words which are in complete agreement with Johns conclusion in 1 John 5:20 identifying Jesus as the true God and Eternal Life. So here we go!


Jesus is eternal life, He is life. We see this over and over again in the Apostle Johns writings. In Him was LIFE and that LIFE was the light of man. Life of the world, the Bread of LIFE,My words are spirit and they are LIFE, I AM the way,the truth and the LIFE,The LIFE was manifested and we proclaim to you the ETERNAL Life which was with the Father, and was manifested to us- The Prologue of 1st John. So we see that when John uses the phrase True God and Eternal Life together in 1 John 5:20 that He is referring to Christ as the closest antecedent making Him the True God and Eternal Life.


Also we see that when we search the GNT that Eternal Life is never used of the Father without the Son but we see that Eternal Life is used over and over with Jesus where the Father is never mentioned. This makes a solid case for Jesus in 1 John 5:20 as the True God and Eternal Life.


1 John 5:20
20 We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true — even in his Son Jesus Christ. He(Jesus) is the true God and eternal life.

On behalf of seeing χριστος as the antecedent are the following arguments: (1) Although it is true that αληθινος θεος is not elsewhere referred to Christ, αληθεια is, and is so in Johannine literature (John 14:6).

29 Winer-Moulton, 195.

Further, αληθινος θεος is not a "constant.. epithet" as Winer supposes, being found only in John 17:3 and 1 John 5:20! (2) Christ is also said to be ζωη in John's writings John 11:25; 14:6; 1 John 1:1-2), an epithet nowhere else used of the Father. (3) The demonstrative pronoun, ουτος, in the Gospel and Epistles of John seems to be used in a theologically rich manner.30 Specifically, of the approximately seventy instances in which ουτος has a personal referent, as many as forty- four of them (almost two-thirds of the instances) refer to the Son. Of the remainder, most imply some sort of positive connection with the Son.31 What is most significant is that never is the Father the referent.For what it is worth, this datum increases the probability that ιησου χριστω is the antecedent in 1 John 5:20. 32 The issue cannot be decided on grammar alone. But suffice it to say here that there are no grammatical reasons for denying that αληθινος θεος is descriptive of Jesus Christ.

9 Biblical and Theological Reasons why Jesus is the True God and Eternal Life in 1 John 5:20

1st- Jesus is called God in the writings of John(1:1,20:28,1 John 5:20)

2nd- Jesus is called Eternal Life over and over again in Johns writings

3rd- John opens up his epistle with the Eternal life(Jesus) that was with the Father in the beginning and was manifest to the disciples(1 John 1:1-5)

4th- John ends his epistle with Jesus who is eternal life and only is eternal life found in Him who is the true God.

5th- never is eternal life used of the Father alone. When the Father is included the Son is always mentioned together with the Father making them equal. Equality with the Father was not something Jesus needed to grasp at as He already possessed complete Deity as God.(Phil 2, Col 2:9)

6th- John would not leave his readers with any ambiguity warning them to guard themselves from idols(5:21) So this would be clear his reference was to those who reject Jesus as the true God. They are the idoloters and antichrists John writes of in his epistles.

7th- [In John's writings] Of the approximately 70 instances in which ουτος has a personal referent, as many as 44 of them (almost 2/3 . . . ) refer to the Son. Of the remainder, most imply some sort of positive connection with the Son.31 What is most significant is that NEVER is the Father the referent.FWIW, this datum increases the probability that ιησου χριστω IS the antecedent in 1 John 5:20. Wallace.

8th-Jesus is also the True God and the True one in 1 John. Jesus is the true light which brings light to all men (John 1:9) Jesus is the truth (John 14:6)Jesus is the true vine (John 15:1). Jesus is the true witness of God (John 18:37) He who is true (Revelation 3:7) Jesus is the faithful and true witness (Revelation 3:14)Jesus is Lord God Almighty, Just and true are your ways(Revelation 15:3) Jesus is faithful and true(Revelation 19:11).

9th -The case for οὗτός referring to Jesus is based on
1) Lexical choice. The phrase καὶ ἐσμὲν ἐν τῷ ἀληθινῷ being superfluous; "καὶ ἐσμὲν ἐν αὐτῷ" would have
- a) been more natural, and
- b) been clearer in pointing to the Father rather than the Son
2) Discourse analysis. The Son is the most prominent subject, being the subject of the end of the previous pericope, the beginning of this pericope, and the beginning of v.20.
But the most powerful piece of data is based on
3) Syntax. There was no connector between καὶ ἐσμὲν ἐν τῷ ἀληθινῷ and ἐν τῷ υἱῷ αὐτοῦ Ἰησοῦ Χριστῷ. A simple καὶ would have sealed the deal.


So the most logical conclusion is that it refers to Jesus as the true God. Not only is this Wallace's conclusion from Johns usage of outos but He is the closest antecedent (most times in the GNT this principal holds true). Eternal Life is never used of the Father alone in John’s writings and only a couple of times does John include the Father with the Son regarding eternal life. John opens up his epistles describing the "eternal life" who was with the Father in the beginning and then ends his epistle with eternal life identifying Jesus as the true God and eternal life. John then says this in the last verse:

1 John 5:21-Guard yourselves from idols

Now why would he leave any ambiguity in verse 20 as to the identity of the true God and eternal life then turn around commanding them to protect themselves from idolatry ? It make absolutely no sense whatsoever unless John is identifying Jesus as the true God and refuting the Gnostics of his day who denied the Incarnation.

hope this helps !!!

 

[dev553344]

No, I believe this thread points to the only one God Almighty, the Father of us all, and his Son. And both being as one, in purpose, mind and action. Folks with their creeds and dogma and extra doctrine add much to the existing simplicity of scripture on this subject, as to confuse and even destroy the profound meaning of these two: God the Father and his Son. This is 100 percent scriptural. Why they get confused and abused God, the Father only knows!

I see they share the spirit that is the Holy Ghost and do the will of the spirit which makes them in unity as God. But my beliefs differ after that. I do see them as different personages. Thanks for your input.

 

[ScottA]

I'm not 100% sure of what you are saying. The issue is Jesus is either the Father or is he not the true God.

No...the issue is whoever they cast as 007, is James Bond. But we don't have the comprehension to put it together.

Stupid is as stupid does.

 

[dev553344]

No, I believe this thread points to the only one God Almighty, the Father of us all, and his Son. And both being as one, in purpose, mind and action. Folks with their creeds and dogma and extra doctrine add much to the existing simplicity of scripture on this subject, as to confuse and even destroy the profound meaning of these two: God the Father and his Son. This is 100 percent scriptural. Why they get confused and abused God, the Father only knows!

I'll tell you of one communication with the Holy Spirit that I had when I was filled with immense peace and love for hours spoken of in Galatians 5:22-23. It was a heavenly experience. The Holy Ghost appeared to me and in it I saw the Holy Spirit of Jesus. And they directed me to see a doctor for my schizophrenia. I saw a doctor and my life has improved. Had I not gone to the doctor all those years ago I would be in jail now and probably homeless and unmanageable like the rest of the crazy people that won't take their medications. God cared about me and told me his will regarding my illness.

Anyways what I got from that vision is more of a trinity view and also beyond that. That Jesus' Holy Spirit is part of the Holy Spirit of God as a separate personage.

But perhaps that is not known among standard Trinitarians. I will stick with what I saw and believe.

John 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.

 

[dev553344]

He is not the Father ( sabellianism/ modalism herersy) and He is the True God 1 John 5:20- Christianity

When we look at the overwhelming evidence from Johns writings which I will show below we can see a much different picture from the Apostle John regarding Christs identity as the true God and Eternal Life. Also we see Christs own words which are in complete agreement with Johns conclusion in 1 John 5:20 identifying Jesus as the true God and Eternal Life. So here we go!


Jesus is eternal life, He is life. We see this over and over again in the Apostle Johns writings. In Him was LIFE and that LIFE was the light of man. Life of the world, the Bread of LIFE,My words are spirit and they are LIFE, I AM the way,the truth and the LIFE,The LIFE was manifested and we proclaim to you the ETERNAL Life which was with the Father, and was manifested to us- The Prologue of 1st John. So we see that when John uses the phrase True God and Eternal Life together in 1 John 5:20 that He is referring to Christ as the closest antecedent making Him the True God and Eternal Life.


Also we see that when we search the GNT that Eternal Life is never used of the Father without the Son but we see that Eternal Life is used over and over with Jesus where the Father is never mentioned. This makes a solid case for Jesus in 1 John 5:20 as the True God and Eternal Life.


1 John 5:20
20 We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true — even in his Son Jesus Christ. He(Jesus) is the true God and eternal life.

On behalf of seeing χριστος as the antecedent are the following arguments: (1) Although it is true that αληθινος θεος is not elsewhere referred to Christ, αληθεια is, and is so in Johannine literature (John 14:6).

29 Winer-Moulton, 195.

Further, αληθινος θεος is not a "constant.. epithet" as Winer supposes, being found only in John 17:3 and 1 John 5:20! (2) Christ is also said to be ζωη in John's writings John 11:25; 14:6; 1 John 1:1-2), an epithet nowhere else used of the Father. (3) The demonstrative pronoun, ουτος, in the Gospel and Epistles of John seems to be used in a theologically rich manner.30 Specifically, of the approximately seventy instances in which ουτος has a personal referent, as many as forty- four of them (almost two-thirds of the instances) refer to the Son. Of the remainder, most imply some sort of positive connection with the Son.31 What is most significant is that never is the Father the referent.For what it is worth, this datum increases the probability that ιησου χριστω is the antecedent in 1 John 5:20. 32 The issue cannot be decided on grammar alone. But suffice it to say here that there are no grammatical reasons for denying that αληθινος θεος is descriptive of Jesus Christ.

9 Biblical and Theological Reasons why Jesus is the True God and Eternal Life in 1 John 5:20

1st- Jesus is called God in the writings of John(1:1,20:28,1 John 5:20)

2nd- Jesus is called Eternal Life over and over again in Johns writings

3rd- John opens up his epistle with the Eternal life(Jesus) that was with the Father in the beginning and was manifest to the disciples(1 John 1:1-5)

4th- John ends his epistle with Jesus who is eternal life and only is eternal life found in Him who is the true God.

5th- never is eternal life used of the Father alone. When the Father is included the Son is always mentioned together with the Father making them equal. Equality with the Father was not something Jesus needed to grasp at as He already possessed complete Deity as God.(Phil 2, Col 2:9)

6th- John would not leave his readers with any ambiguity warning them to guard themselves from idols(5:21) So this would be clear his reference was to those who reject Jesus as the true God. They are the idoloters and antichrists John writes of in his epistles.

7th- [In John's writings] Of the approximately 70 instances in which ουτος has a personal referent, as many as 44 of them (almost 2/3 . . . ) refer to the Son. Of the remainder, most imply some sort of positive connection with the Son.31 What is most significant is that NEVER is the Father the referent.FWIW, this datum increases the probability that ιησου χριστω IS the antecedent in 1 John 5:20. Wallace.

8th-Jesus is also the True God and the True one in 1 John. Jesus is the true light which brings light to all men (John 1:9) Jesus is the truth (John 14:6)Jesus is the true vine (John 15:1). Jesus is the true witness of God (John 18:37) He who is true (Revelation 3:7) Jesus is the faithful and true witness (Revelation 3:14)Jesus is Lord God Almighty, Just and true are your ways(Revelation 15:3) Jesus is faithful and true(Revelation 19:11).

9th -The case for οὗτός referring to Jesus is based on
1) Lexical choice. The phrase καὶ ἐσμὲν ἐν τῷ ἀληθινῷ being superfluous; "καὶ ἐσμὲν ἐν αὐτῷ" would have
- a) been more natural, and
- b) been clearer in pointing to the Father rather than the Son
2) Discourse analysis. The Son is the most prominent subject, being the subject of the end of the previous pericope, the beginning of this pericope, and the beginning of v.20.
But the most powerful piece of data is based on
3) Syntax. There was no connector between καὶ ἐσμὲν ἐν τῷ ἀληθινῷ and ἐν τῷ υἱῷ αὐτοῦ Ἰησοῦ Χριστῷ. A simple καὶ would have sealed the deal.


So the most logical conclusion is that it refers to Jesus as the true God. Not only is this Wallace's conclusion from Johns usage of outos but He is the closest antecedent (most times in the GNT this principal holds true). Eternal Life is never used of the Father alone in John’s writings and only a couple of times does John include the Father with the Son regarding eternal life. John opens up his epistles describing the "eternal life" who was with the Father in the beginning and then ends his epistle with eternal life identifying Jesus as the true God and eternal life. John then says this in the last verse:

1 John 5:21-Guard yourselves from idols

Now why would he leave any ambiguity in verse 20 as to the identity of the true God and eternal life then turn around commanding them to protect themselves from idolatry ? It make absolutely no sense whatsoever unless John is identifying Jesus as the true God and refuting the Gnostics of his day who denied the Incarnation.

hope this helps !!!

I like this and wasn't aware of these verses in context. When I study the bible and pass over important doctrine. It's nice to see them presented in context like this. Thanks!

 

[ChristisGod]

I'll tell you of one communication with the Holy Spirit that I had when I was filled with immense peace and love for hours spoken of in Galatians 5:22-23. It was a heavenly experience. The Holy Ghost appeared to me and in it I saw the Holy Spirit of Jesus. And they directed me to see a doctor for my schizophrenia. I saw a doctor and my life has improved. Had I not gone to the doctor all those years ago I would be in jail now and probably homeless and unmanageable like the rest of the crazy people that won't take their medications. God cared about me and told me his will regarding my illness.

Anyways what I got from that vision is more of a trinity view and also beyond that. That Jesus' Holy Spirit is part of the Holy Spirit of God as a separate personage.

But perhaps that is not known among standard Trinitarians. I will stick with what I saw and believe.

John 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.

Jesus used personal pronouns when referring to the Holy Spirit:

"But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me; and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged. "I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. "He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. "All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you. "(John 16:7-15).

The Holy Spirit below does things that only a person can do,

He leads (Matt. 4:1).
He is called God (Acts 5:3-4).
He helps and comforts (John 14:16, 16:7).
He convicts of sin (John 16:17).
He gives testimony of Jesus (John 15:26).
He teaches, guides and brings to remembrance (John 14:26, 16:13).
He speaks and instructs (Acts 8:29; 10:19; John 16:13).
He hears and speaks (John 16:13, Acts 28:25-27).
He can be lied to and tested (Acts 5:3-4,9).
He sends and gives life (Acts 13:4, John 3:6, Gen 1:3).
He is a witness (Acts 5:32)
He restrains (2 Thess. 2:7).
He prevents (Acts 16:6-7).
The Spirit "said" to Philip and Peter(Acts 8:29, 10:19).
Peter said he was "told" by the Spirit (Acts 11:12).
The Holy Spirit "solemnly testifies" (Acts 20:23).
He made some of the early Christians overseers to shepherd the Church. (Acts 20:28).
He wills (Acts 13:2).
He interprets our prayers (Rom. 8:26).
He knows and communicates (1 Cor. 2:11; Rom. 8:27).
He reveals (Eph. 3:5).
He has a will-He decides, chooses and distributes the Gifts to the church (1 Cor. 12:11).
He can be grieved (Eph. 4:30).

conclusion: one must turn a blind eye to all the biblical truth above to deny the Person and work of the Holy Spirit who is distinct from both the Father and the Son.

hope this helps !!!