Submission Of The Wife: How Serious A Matter Is It?

[Pearl]

If Jesus is head of the home then a true and loving relationship of equals should be the result.

 

[Mink57]

I believe a husband and wife should be equally submissive.

Amen! And, what you wrote is biblical: "Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ." Ephesians 5:21. Why do so many people--especially husbands--seem to miss that verse?

First of all, the word "submit" wasn't even a word until the late 14th century A.D. Comes from 2 Latin words: "sub", which means "under" and "mittere", which means "to let go; send." The transitive sense is, "to refer to another for consideration."

Way back when, children were under the authority of their parents. Once married, their 'loyalty' was no longer to their parents, but to their spouse. They no longer had to "submit" to their parents, but instead, "submit" to their marital partner. The wife wants to go back to college? She doesn't get to "submit" to her parents...or aunts, uncles, siblings, or strangers. Instead, she "refers (the matter) to her husband for consideration." It does NOT mean that he gets the "final say." The make this decision between themselves, simply because they are "one."

In no way does "submit" mean, "You have to do what I say, when I say it!" After all, if one goes by the Golden Rule, the husband certainly won't like it if his WIFE said, "You have to do what *I* say when I say it!" Consider it from that point of view, and the whole matter is shed in a different light.

But do you believe Christ and the church should be equally submissive to one another, Bob?
I don't think Christ should submit to the church. We are doomed if that should ever happen.

Jesus is a servant-leader. He proved that by washing the feet of his disciples.

And yes, Christ does 'submit' to the church, in that he 'gave his life FOR her'. How many husbands actually enter marriage with that thought?

The "submission" between Christ and the church is not "equal"; it's equivalent. The same as a relationship between husband and wife isn't "equal", but equivalent.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

I agree Hidden, boys and girls are not being raised correctly in this day and age.

We all need to be aware what are our strengths are and how to use them effectively.

Boys are being raised to be whimpishish and effeminate instead of strong in leadership ( not bullying). Those that seem to be leaders do so by being jocks and running over others.

Girls are being raised to look for Prince Charming instead of how to be women of God.
I'd rather see a girl that knows her worth and stands on principles rather than her sex and looks.

This generation as it seems is in an awful place. Rapes abound bullying is the norm. Children have little input from parents and pedophile teachers are being overlooked.
It is a dangerous world to bring a child into and also to raise them in today.

The institution of marriage is a joke, bc now its ok to marry same sex ppl. The divorce rate is elevated bc we can use the excuse of irreconcilable difference ( cant agree and get along)

It's a mess for the family and for the faith !

 

[BarneyFife]

I was never In a Christian marriage but for me the dream shows a ‘ cancer ‘ ( disease ) coming into a marriage through the women’s dominance. It’s one thing to share the responsibility if it is mutually agreed on , but it kind of sounds as if it was what the wife wanted to do in a controlling way. Cancer controls, eats away and can bring death, it can also lay hidden and it is often too late to sort out once it has spread ,when a ma
Despite Jeff not being a believer I still accepted him as being in the driving seat, unless it meant me going against something that I had a strong conviction about…..then I would need to stand my ground , explain why I couldn’t comply.
Men and women are so different in personalities that sometimes a women may need to take responsibility of things that other men would not think was right, the key for me is the attitude and reason behind it all.
Cancer can lay hidden and it is often too late to sort out once it has spread …….
Maybe this is a warning that things need to be addressed before it is too late xx

There is a backlash against third-wave feminism bubbling underneath the surface that is already being made manifest in many avenues of society. I know I've brought this up before, but my wife works for the county office of children and youth services in the legal dept., so every (discovered) horrible thing that happens to a child goes across her desk. The collateral damage inflicted on women is most often included in the reports. Men are going absolutely berserk in their frustration over gender roles, fueled even further by self-medication with alcohol and narcotics.

The only hope for mankind is the Gospel of the LORD Jesus Christ and His soon return to physically intervene in the horror.

Sorry for the rant.

 

[Grailhunter]

That's correct, but then the way the early church taught to conduct themselves within that institution was entirely different than what many associate it with slavery today. But the institution of marriage has not passed away, nor was it ever regarded as a sinful custom, so I'm not sure your parallel works even if the other one could be made to.

First off, slavery in the Bible was true slavery. Some of it harsh. Slavery in the biblical era was a big part of the economic structure. But slaves were considered property in the Bible, and the Mosaic Law regulated that. Just as women were considered property and none of that applies anymore. Of course I am not taking it through a timeline. The Jewish-Christians treated their wives differently than Gentile-Christians and Gentile Christians became Roman Catholic. Around the 12th century at the council of Ephesus women were given the right to choose their own husbands. Up to that point some were practicing the Old Testament tradition that men bought their wives from their fathers.

Again, if one must focus on subordination in this context as being an evil thing, then the same must apply of the church subordinating herself to the Lord Jesus Christ, because this was the early church teaching. To render subornation as a concept intrinsically evil is to in effect render the entire Christian religion evil.

Judging the historical past as evil is wrong thinking. Some day people will think that we were not doing the right thing.
Why didn't Christ and the Apostles address slavery and polygamy and concubinage? Not the right time. Like Christ said, “I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. John 16:12 Just not the right time? Addressing slavery at the time would have caused some very bad things.....if they changed the customs towards women they would have alienated the Jews from Christianity.

I understand what you are saying, and I cringe when I hear some backwoods preacher on the radio somewhere harping on and on about submission. I feel sorry for such women, because I know the men sitting under the preacher are likely not much sharper than he is, which must not be easy to have to endure when the constant reminder is "submission, submission, submission." But this is an abuse of a godly institution, IMO. Marriage has not been done away with, and because it will continue until the end there must be a guideline. That guideline was laid down when Paul taught on it being a reflection of Christ and His bride, so I don't know that anything has changed in God's eyes on this particular issue, regardless of how archaic and outdated it might seem to the modern unsaved ear.

And this is the issue at hand. Is Christianity a static religion with a God that is silent or is a dynamic religion where God...the Holy Spirit continues to teach us. I am not a fundamentalist. But in practice Bible only people are really not either, they pick and chose. The Protestants that chose to make wedding ceremonies a requirement, did not get that from the Bible. Marriage arrangements have changed. But as I said, if you want to be true Bible only....you do not need a wedding ceremony, you can be lord and master over your wives, all ten of them if you want. But if the Holy Spirit has talked to you, you have a Christian conscience and know what is right and what is wrong.

That comes close to my description as well. I can cook for myself, I can clean after myself (though I likely rarely would). I can do a lot of things by myself, so to me it is not a matter of dependency or abuse. But when it must come down to a decision that will effect us spiritually, I am no longer passive. In fact, we have a real problem on our hands if we disagree. But thankfully her and I agree on most things anyway, the important stuff anyway, which goes back to wisely choosing a good mate for life.

There is a lot to be said about not marrying unevenly yoked.

 

[Mink57]

I agree Hidden, boys and girls are not being raised correctly in this day and age.

We all need to be aware what are our strengths are and how to use them effectively.

Boys are being raised to be whimpishish and effeminate instead of strong in leadership ( not bullying). Those that seem to be leaders do so by being jocks and running over others.

If boys are being raised to be "whimpish" and "effeminate", why are so many of them controlling, "bullying" and abusive? Seems to me, it's just the opposite..

Girls are being raised to look for Prince Charming instead of how to be women of God.

It depends on what you think of as "Prince Charming."

I'd rather see a girl that knows her worth and stands on principles rather than her sex and looks.

Would love to see a man who sees a woman stand on her own principles rather than if she 'puts out' and her looks. Can't blame it all on women.

This generation as it seems is in an awful place. Rapes abound bullying is the norm. Children have little input from parents and pedophile teachers are being overlooked.
It is a dangerous world to bring a child into and also to raise them in today.

At the same time, hasn't this already been predicted in the bible?

The institution of marriage is a joke, bc now its ok to marry same sex ppl. The divorce rate is elevated bc we can use the excuse of irreconcilable difference ( cant agree and get along)

It's a mess for the family and for the faith !

I agree...to a point.

Again, way back when, people grew together in small communities. Everyone knew everyone else, and there was none of the "in love" stuff. At least, not in the beginning. The whole point is, that people got to know each other. The parents got to know their neighbor's kids...as they were growing up together. None of these "blind dates."

Marriage meant something different than it does today. Personal responsibility mattered. So did family. Character mattered before physical beauty.

Something got 'lost' somewhere...

 

[Hidden In Him]

Jesus is a servant-leader. He proved that by washing the feet of his disciples

He leads by serving, which is a slightly different thing.

And yes, Christ does 'submit' to the church, in that he 'gave his life FOR her'. How many husbands actually enter marriage with that thought?

To your first statement, no. You are attempting to redefine terms. He gave His life for her. He did not submit to her.

To the second, I agree. And what that expressions was referring to was that husbands were dying for the faith during the New Testament era, in part because they were teaching their wives the oracles of the faith, even at the expense of being hated - sometimes by her family, and sometimes by his, or by others in society who had a problem with it. The modern church in the West doesn't know much about that so they don't count the same cost, but the same willingness to sacrifice themselves for their wives should still apply today.

The "submission" between Christ and the church is not "equal"; it's equivalent. The same as a relationship between husband and wife isn't "equal", but equivalent.

Mmmm... It's definitely not equal, or He would not have us call Him Lord. But so long as we are submitted to His will, we are one with Him and In Him. So to respond, we cease to be twain but "one flesh" together - what Paul called a great mystery - so there is no more "equality" but rather unity in Him, just as Christ is the Head of His body.

 

[Mink57]

He leads by serving, which is a slightly different thing.

To your first statement, no. You are attempting to redefine terms. He gave His life for her. He did not submit to her.

He submitted to her, BY giving his live for her. I'm not 'redefining' terms; I'm reading the 'terms' correctly.

To the second, I agree. And what that expressions was referring to was that husbands were dying for the faith during the New Testament era, in part because they were teaching their wives the oracles of the faith, even at the expense of being hated - sometimes by her family, and sometimes by his, or by others in society who had a problem with it. The modern church in the West doesn't know much about that so they don't count the same cost, but the same willingness to sacrifice themselves for their wives should still apply today.

If this is what you believe, in order to further your agenda of wanting your wife to "submit" to you, you've got it all wrong.

Mmmm... It's definitely not equal, or He would not have us call Him Lord. But so long as we are submitted to His will, we are one with Him and In Him. So to respond, we cease to be twain but "one flesh" together - what Paul called a great mystery - so there is no more "equality" but rather unity in Him, just as Christ is the Head of His body.

No matter what you say/write, you don't seem to get--or accept--that husbands and wives are supposed to "submit to one another..." AS IS IN THE BIBLE.

And, if we ARE supposed to "submit to one another", why is that so hard to understand?

 

[Hidden In Him]

The institution of marriage is a joke, bc now its ok to marry same sex ppl. The divorce rate is elevated bc we can use the excuse of irreconcilable difference ( cant agree and get along)

Yes.

Boys are being raised to be whimpishish and effeminate instead of strong in leadership (not bullying). Those that seem to be leaders do so by being jocks and running over others.

I was thinking about this the other day, and don't laugh. But let me show you what a man has to be ready for (and many aren't). I'm a fan of women's soccer, and there have been a number of women on the US team that I have admired over the years. One of them still active is Alex Morgan. I was thinking what it must be like for her husband to lead a woman like that. She's a multi-millionaire in her own right, famous, very good looking, smart and a beast of a woman.

I can't see too many men being able to put their foot down with a woman like that, but that is what a man must be prepared to do going into a marriage or he would never be able to lead. And I think most women - even the strongest of them - secretly want a man who will stand up to them. But the point is that women are much more empowered now, so it takes a man being even stronger than ever before. Men more than ever need to count the cost of potentially losing their love by standing their ground going in, and even those who don't lean towards effeminacy may nevertheless not be up to the task of risking ending their potential marriage in today's society unless they are trained to act like men when the tough gets going. Many are too easily swayed by their desires not to. And I have to confess when I was young enough to even have a chance been in the ballpark for such women, I would have had a hard time not getting wrapped around their finger as well.

Sorry, but if it's a chat then that's full discloser, Lol, and relevant to the current discussion I think.

 

[quietthinker]

Submission Of The Wife: How Serious A Matter Is It?
I suppose if she's being beaten around the gills with a clenched fist, she needs to get outta there......no submission needed.

 

[Hidden In Him]

If this is what you believe, in order to further your agenda of wanting your wife to "submit" to you, you've got it all wrong.

That's what you assume? Then tell me how much I want my wife to "submit" to me.

No matter what you say/write, you don't seem to get--or accept--that husbands and wives are supposed to "submit to one another..." AS IS IN THE BIBLE.

And, if we ARE supposed to "submit to one another", why is that so hard to understand?

Post #8, but I will repost it below:

I think you're talking about this passage here, which is about members of a congregation submitting to one another as the Holy Spirit speaks through them in the supernatural gifts (tongues, interpretation, prophecy, etc):

17 Therefore do not be unwise, but understand what the will of the Lord is. 18 And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit, 19 speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord,20 giving thanks always for all things to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, 21 submitting to one another in the fear of God.

We are to "pray without ceasing," and Paul prayed in tongues more than anyone in the church so this is what he was likely referring to. In 1st Corinthians, one of the primary functions of tongues was to give thanks to the Lord (1st Corinthians 14), and being filled with the Spirit involves the use of the gifts. And because they thought the disciples were drunk on the day of Pentecost, Paul's comparison here was very likely to that.

In other words, the verse you are quoting wasn't about wives submitting to husbands. It was about congregation members submitting to one another as the Holy Spirit gave utterance through them.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Submission Of The Wife: How Serious A Matter Is It?
I suppose if she's being beaten around the gills with a clenched fist, she needs to get outta there......no submission needed.

Oh brother, LoL.

Since you're not afraid to be so bold, I'll return the favor in a spirit of brotherhood, Quiet.

In the name of sounding "thoughtful" with your quips and one sentence responses, sometimes they come off as a bit stupid and petty instead.

Tighten up a little, Quiet. You're off your game lately, Lol.

Tit for tat, so don't take it hard, but this was a dumb response that resorted to little more than baseless accusation if it was directed to me.

Don't tell me: "Why would you think it was directed to you, Hidden?" Because I wrote the thread, the title of which you quoted. So be quiet and think a little more next time, LoL.

Isn't it nice that we get along better now.

 

[Mink57]

That's what you assume? Then tell me how much I want my wife to "submit" to me.


Post #8, but I will repost it below:

I think you're talking about this passage here, which is about members of a congregation submitting to one another as the Holy Spirit speaks through them in the supernatural gifts (tongues, interpretation, prophecy, etc):

17 Therefore do not be unwise, but understand what the will of the Lord is. 18 And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit, 19 speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord,20 giving thanks always for all things to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, 21 submitting to one another in the fear of God.

We are to "pray without ceasing," and Paul prayed in tongues more than anyone in the church so this is what he was likely referring to. In 1st Corinthians, one of the primary functions of tongues was to give thanks to the Lord (1st Corinthians 14), and being filled with the Spirit involves the use of the gifts. And because they thought the disciples were drunk on the day of Pentecost, Paul's comparison here was very likely to that.

In other words, the verse you are quoting wasn't about wives submitting to husbands. It was about congregation members submitting to one another as the Holy Spirit gave utterance through them.

Do unto others. That's ALL you need to know. It's the Law and the Prophets. And yes, husbands and wives are included in that.

If you want to "make the decisions" or "have the final word", are you doing unto your wife, what you would want HER to do unto you?

 

[Hidden In Him]

Do unto others. That's ALL you need to know. It's the Law and the Prophets. And yes, husbands and wives are included in that.

If you want to "make the decisions" or "have the final word", are you doing unto your wife, what you would want HER to do unto you?

This is an excellent question, so I'll touch on it when I get back. We've got company tonight so I've got to go for now.

God bless, and thank you for the replies.
- H

 

[quietthinker]

Oh brother, LoL.

Since you're not afraid to be so bold, I'll return the favor in a spirit of brotherhood, Quiet.

In the name of sounding "thoughtful" with your quips and one sentence responses, sometimes they come off as a bit stupid and petty instead.

Tighten up a little, Quiet. You're off your game lately, Lol.

Tit for tat, so don't take it hard, but this was a dumb response that resorted to little more than baseless accusation if it was directed to me.

Don't tell me: "Why would you think it was directed to you, Hidden?" Because I wrote the thread, the title of which you quoted. So be quiet and think a little more next time, LoL.

Isn't it nice that we get along better now.

Second guessing, Hidden is flawed in its nature .....and prompts to qualify blanket statements are not stupid or petty although they might appear that way to folk who hadn't considered that their statements are so broad one could fit a barn into them.

 

[ScottA]

Ok, this thread may sound archaic to some, but I'm not addressing the unsaved but the saved in this thread.

How serious an issue is it with God if a Christian wife doesn't submit to her husband? Does it bring judgment? Keep in mind that I am NOT talking about a wife needing to submit to her husband's every whim, or become a mere slave in the marriage without any mind of her own. I am simply talking about how when it comes to tough decisions, where headship is in question and someone has to have the final say, that the husband needs to be the one who makes the final determination, especially where making spiritual decisions are concerned.

I offer the following case in point as evidence for it. The impetus for this thread was something a friend recently sent me about a dream her husband had concerning her mother.

It went like this:

He was at my parents' house. He saw his brother in laws but didn't see my siblings. He saw women from a church we used to attend that my parents are still attending. They said, "It's sad to hear about the passing of your mother-in-law." And he agreed, it was sad. They said, "It's too bad she died of prostate cancer."

As she shared with me, prostrate cancer is a man's disease, possible also in women but very rare. I told her the dream likely meant her mother was in danger of coming under judgment from God (an illness of some kind) for "taking too much of a man's role in life," and that it was in some sense connected to the sin she might come under judgement for; that the imagery suggested "her personality is unyielding" in "insisting on having things her way rather than His," which in the eyes of God becomes a serious matter, especially when you are taking the spiritual welfare of others into your own hands unjustly.

She sent back that her mother did indeed take on the man's role in her marriage from early on, and not only began handling the finances but deciding on church matters, and that he simply let her.

My belief is that when we get badly out of line with His will and enter into direct disobedience to His word, judgment can come to correct things. Again, concerning the matter of submission in the home, I am not some wife-beating dictator who thinks women aren't as "intelligent" as men are, so that's not where my position is coming from here. She also mentioned how her mother handles the finances, and I said that sometimes the wife is just better with numbers and keeping records so there's no harm in that, but that it's when she assumes headship over the marriage that the problems will come. My wife handles most of our bills in our marriage and keeps all the files, but she is not the spiritual head of the household.

Thoughts are welcomed, but keep it courteous and respectful. I have great respect for women and as a rule tend to prefer their company over men. I don't think there is any definition in scripture about "superiority" outside the marriage relationship. I simply think that inside the marriage a man and woman are to reflect the relationship between Christ and His bride, and there the Lord is the One in charge.

God bless, and thank you for reading
Hidden In Him

This is not a matter of what a modern Christian man and wife must do...but rather an old standard that can and should still be followed if one desires to serve God as an example of our marriage with Christ the Bridegroom.

Not to do so, is a refusal to serving God.

Now--having said that. If a Christian man and wife, want to come together in the understanding that the man is also to be a bride to the Bridegroom, that the man has no actual lordship over the wife...then in private it is only right to treat each other equally...as...well...sisters. Thus, the role assigned to the man and the wife by God, is not some much for them if they themselves already understand their engagement with Christ, but is rather an example to edify and teach that relationship to babes and seceding generations just coming into the knowledge of what is to be.

 

[TLHKAJ]

Ok, this thread may sound archaic to some, but I'm not addressing the unsaved but the saved in this thread.

How serious an issue is it with God if a Christian wife doesn't submit to her husband? Does it bring judgment? Keep in mind that I am NOT talking about a wife needing to submit to her husband's every whim, or become a mere slave in the marriage without any mind of her own. I am simply talking about how when it comes to tough decisions, where headship is in question and someone has to have the final say, that the husband needs to be the one who makes the final determination, especially where making spiritual decisions are concerned.

I offer the following case in point as evidence for it. The impetus for this thread was something a friend recently sent me about a dream her husband had concerning her mother.

It went like this:

He was at my parents' house. He saw his brother in laws but didn't see my siblings. He saw women from a church we used to attend that my parents are still attending. They said, "It's sad to hear about the passing of your mother-in-law." And he agreed, it was sad. They said, "It's too bad she died of prostate cancer."

As she shared with me, prostrate cancer is a man's disease, possible also in women but very rare. I told her the dream likely meant her mother was in danger of coming under judgment from God (an illness of some kind) for "taking too much of a man's role in life," and that it was in some sense connected to the sin she might come under judgement for; that the imagery suggested "her personality is unyielding" in "insisting on having things her way rather than His," which in the eyes of God becomes a serious matter, especially when you are taking the spiritual welfare of others into your own hands unjustly.

She sent back that her mother did indeed take on the man's role in her marriage from early on, and not only began handling the finances but deciding on church matters, and that he simply let her.

My belief is that when we get badly out of line with His will and enter into direct disobedience to His word, judgment can come to correct things. Again, concerning the matter of submission in the home, I am not some wife-beating dictator who thinks women aren't as "intelligent" as men are, so that's not where my position is coming from here. She also mentioned how her mother handles the finances, and I said that sometimes the wife is just better with numbers and keeping records so there's no harm in that, but that it's when she assumes headship over the marriage that the problems will come. My wife handles most of our bills in our marriage and keeps all the files, but she is not the spiritual head of the household.

Thoughts are welcomed, but keep it courteous and respectful. I have great respect for women and as a rule tend to prefer their company over men. I don't think there is any definition in scripture about "superiority" outside the marriage relationship. I simply think that inside the marriage a man and woman are to reflect the relationship between Christ and His bride, and there the Lord is the One in charge.

God bless, and thank you for reading
Hidden In Him

It's not advisable for a woman to follow her husband's spiritual advice in every case. Oftentimes, women have to decide not to be part of a cult or not to follow her husband into a church full of dangerous doctrines (false doctrines) and worship of men, or a church that supports or hides child and spousal abuse.

 

[TLHKAJ]

Hi HiH,

It is very serious.

As priest of the household the husband has a duty to intercede on her behalf, so that she may be spared condemnation..

For how do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband; or how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife

Pax et Bonum

And vice versa ....that scripture isn't just speaking to the husband's role of "saving" their spouse.

 

[DavidB]

In Ephesians 5, after Paul tells wives to “be in subjection to their husbands as to the Lord” he writes:

“Husbands, continue loving your wives, just as the Christ also loved the congregation and gave himself up for it, 26 in order that he might sanctify it, cleansing it with the bath of water by means of the word, 27 so that he might present the congregation to himself in its splendor, without a spot or a wrinkle or any of such things, but holy and without blemish. 28 In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. A man who loves his wife loves himself, 29 for no man ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cherishes it, just as the Christ does the congregation.”

What wife wouldn’t like being loved as Christ loved the congregation? What wife would not appreciate feeling her husband would die to protect her? Would a wife appreciate having a husband who like Jesus wants his wife to be without even a spot or a wrinkle or any blemish? If a husband loves his wife as he does himself, he will listen carefully to his wife and normally make decisions to please his wife unless he sees serious consequences. A Christian husband should cherish his wife. Would a Christian wife be willing to support such a husband? Would she be willing to be a “helper and a complement” to him as God said about Eve at Genesis 2:18?

This formula for a happy marriage is brief and clear. Unfortunately it’s not always easy to apply. But to the degree we apply it, we can have good marriages. Many now ridicule this guidance. The world is full of family failure, a reaping of what has been sown.

 

[TLHKAJ]

What wife wouldn’t like being loved as Christ loved the congregation? What wife would not appreciate feeling her husband would die to protect her? Would a wife appreciate having a husband who like Jesus wants his wife to be without even a spot or a wrinkle or any blemish? If a husband loves his wife as he does himself, he will listen carefully to his wife and normally make decisions to please his wife unless he sees serious consequences. A Christian husband should cherish his wife. Would a Christian wife be willing to support such a husband? Would she be willing to be a “helper and a complement” to him as God said about Eve at Genesis 2:18?

Absolutely! That is the kind of husband a Christian wife can easily and gratefully be in submission to (in the way God's Word lays out). It's when a husband abuses his position and then goes off into abuse and ungodly practices that she has issues with submitting. I believe there are ways to submit in those cases that do not involve submitting to ungodly behaviors.... unless she is being forced to participate in the occult, or forced into prostitution ....then she needs to leave him.