National Covenant

[covenantee]

But the nation is in violation only when the nation, as a majority, violates the covenant.

Scripturally, what is the numerical value of a majority?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Peter turned "nation" into a metaphor. He was justified in doing so. He also metaphorized chosen generation, royal priesthood, peculiar people, darkness, and light.

You're just asserting that as fact. You didn't in the least respond to the point I made, that the use of "nation," in context, does not require the use of it as a metaphor. It makes perfect sense in that context to use "nation" as the literal "Israel," which is apparently what Peter intended to convey. Not only was he an "apostle to the circumcised," as Paul noted, but he was writing to "exiles," which referred only to the Jewish believers.

Finally, the quotations referred to OT references to Israel. It would be anachronistic for Peter to then use those quotes and apply them to a mixed Jewish/Gentile Church, and use "nation" as a metaphor for the international Church.

So the discussion is really over. We are just asserting our own beliefs, and not responding to points anymore.

You repeatedly forget that OT Israel was comprised of both Jews and Gentiles. Thus there was no ethnic difference between the audiences for Exodus 19:6 and 1 Peter 2:9.

No, I haven't forgotten the "mixed" composition of the NT Church. It began largely as a Jewish Church, but quickly grew into an international enterprise. But at the beginning, the only "nation" associated with Christianity in any meaningful way was Israel, which had broken their covenant and had largely apostacized from their faith. Only the Jewish Church supported that part of Israel that maintained its national aspirations. And it was to that Hope that Peter was referring.

The mixed composition of the Church in no way deals with the meaning of "nation" in Peter's usage. One can refer to any nation on earth reasonably even though each one has a "mixed" ethnic composition. They are still called "nations!" It has nothing whatsoever with me forgetting anything!

There was no ethnic difference between Exo 19.6 and 1 Pet 2.9 because both referred to Israel, the "holy nation." At the time there was no other nation that had responded to such a national call--only Israel.

All of the churches enumerated were comprised of both Jews and Gentiles. The church in Galatia was primarily Gentile, as Paul's letter to the Galatians demonstrates.

That point has zero relevance. Peter was speaking to Jewish "exiles." He was not speaking to the Galatian Church!

 

[Randy Kluth]

Scripturally, what is the numerical value of a majority?

We are talking common sense definitions of words. The Bible is not a Dictionary! When a nation defaults on its loans, it is not the operation involving a small minority within the nation. It involves the net worth of the whole nation, generally.

 

[Keraz]

Peter was speaking to Jewish "exiles." He was not speaking to the Galatian Church!

Peter addressed his letters to Christians generally.
It is known that the Galatian peoples at that time, were of Celtic stock. Who are descended from the 10 Northern tribes of Israel.

Your determination, Randy - to promote a Jewish revival, is misplaced.
It is the House of Israel, the peoples Jesus came to save; that are the 'nation' who bear the proper fruit and will inherit the Kingdom.
Jesus has some very harsh things to say about the Jews, who would not have Him for their King. Luke 19:27

 

[Randy Kluth]

Peter addressed his letters to Christians generally.

He addressed his letter of 1 Peter to "God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia." So no, the word of God says that Peter addressed his letter of 1 Peter specifically to the "exiles," who were Jewish believers.

It is known that the Galatian peoples at that time, were of Celtic stock. Who are descended from the 10 Northern tribes of Israel.

I'm talking about 1 Peter--not Galatians. I'm talking about Peter--not Paul.

Your determination, Randy - to promote a Jewish revival, is misplaced.

I'm determined to promote the word of God, as written. You seem bent on distorting the explicit word of God. That's dangerous territory. At the very least, you should be humble about it, and not try to intimidate those who are serious about retaining exactly what God's word says!

It is the House of Israel, the peoples Jesus came to save; that are the 'nation' who bear the proper fruit and will inherit the Kingdom.
Jesus has some very harsh things to say about the Jews, who would not have Him for their King. Luke 19:27

You are redefining "Israel, the nation" to be something other than literal Israel.

 

[covenantee]

You're just asserting that as fact. You didn't in the least respond to the point I made, that the use of "nation," in context, does not require the use of it as a metaphor. It makes perfect sense in that context to use "nation" as the literal "Israel," which is apparently what Peter intended to convey. Not only was he an "apostle to the circumcised," as Paul noted, but he was writing to "exiles," which referred only to the Jewish believers.

Finally, the quotations referred to OT references to Israel. It would be anachronistic for Peter to then use those quotes and apply them to a mixed Jewish/Gentile Church, and use "nation" as a metaphor for the international Church.

So the discussion is really over. We are just asserting our own beliefs, and not responding to points anymore.



No, I haven't forgotten the "mixed" composition of the NT Church. It began largely as a Jewish Church, but quickly grew into an international enterprise. But at the beginning, the only "nation" associated with Christianity in any meaningful way was Israel, which had broken their covenant and had largely apostacized from their faith. Only the Jewish Church supported that part of Israel that maintained its national aspirations. And it was to that Hope that Peter was referring.

The mixed composition of the Church in no way deals with the meaning of "nation" in Peter's usage. One can refer to any nation on earth reasonably even though each one has a "mixed" ethnic composition. They are still called "nations!" It has nothing whatsoever with me forgetting anything!

There was no ethnic difference between Exo 19.6 and 1 Pet 2.9 because both referred to Israel, the "holy nation." At the time there was no other nation that had responded to such a national call--only Israel.



That point has zero relevance. Peter was speaking to Jewish "exiles." He was not speaking to the Galatian Church!

Explain how the nation of Israel today, which as an antichrist rejects Christ and His Gospel, qualifies as:
a chosen generation
a royal priesthood
a holy nation
a peculiar people
called out of darkness into light

 

[covenantee]

He addressed his letter of 1 Peter to "God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia." So no, the word of God says that Peter addressed his letter of 1 Peter specifically to the "exiles," who were Jewish believers.



I'm talking about 1 Peter--not Galatians. I'm talking about Peter--not Paul.



I'm determined to promote the word of God, as written. You seem bent on distorting the explicit word of God. That's dangerous territory. At the very least, you should be humble about it, and not try to intimidate those who are serious about retaining exactly what God's word says!



You are redefining "Israel, the nation" to be something other than literal Israel.

More interesting questions.

In Exodus 19:5-6, did God exclude Israelite Gentiles from His descriptions regarding Israel?

Certainly not.

So why would Gentiles be excluded from the same descriptions in 1 Peter 2:9?

 

[covenantee]

Only the Jewish Church supported that part of Israel that maintained its national aspirations.

Scripture?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Explain how the nation of Israel today, which as an antichrist rejects Christ and His Gospel, qualifies as:
a chosen generation
a royal priesthood
a holy nation
a peculiar people
called out of darkness into light

It's called Grace, brother. Yes, sometimes God pronounces an everlasting curse upon men and nations. At other times, He leaves room for Hope, particularly when He has promised it.

God brings judgment upon His called ones. But that does not mitigate against His eternal promise towards Israel. In the end, God says He will create a new people who He will embrace through forgiveness. But it will be the same Jewish People that had earlier rejected Him. This takes place through a refining process, spoken of in Zechariah 13.

In the Wilderness, the same people--the Hebrew People--who had disobeyed God in the manner of entering Canaan, ended up, in the 2nd generation, entering Canaan and obeying God. So there is the grace of a 2nd chance. And there is also the surety of God's word.

Hos 1.10 “Yet the Israelites will be like the sand on the seashore, which cannot be measured or counted. In the place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ they will be called ‘children of the living God.’ ...
2.2 “Rebuke your mother, rebuke her,
for she is not my wife,
and I am not her husband.
2.14 “Therefore I am now going to allure her;
I will lead her into the wilderness
and speak tenderly to her.
15 There I will give her back her vineyards,
and will make the Valley of Achor a door of hope.
There she will respond as in the days of her youth,
as in the day she came up out of Egypt.
16 “In that day,” declares the Lord,
“you will call me ‘my husband’.

 

[Randy Kluth]

More interesting questions.

In Exodus 19:5-6, did God exclude Israelite Gentiles from His descriptions regarding Israel?

Certainly not.

So why would Gentiles be excluded from the same descriptions in 1 Peter 2:9?

When I address any nation, it obviously includes immigrants, nationalized citizens, minorities, and converts to the prevailing religion who reside in that land.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Scripture?

Rev 7--the 144,000, as well as Rom 11.

Rom 11.I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”? 4 And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

 

[covenantee]

Rev 7--the 144,000, as well as Rom 11.

Rom 11.I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”? 4 And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

The Church and the 144,000

Revelation 7:3-4 describe the 144,000 as “sealed.” That description is reserved in the NT for believers in Christ – His Body and Bride – His Church:

2 Corinthians 1:21-22
Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.


The Revelation 7 passage is therefore conveying the insight that the OT Israelitish faithful saints of God are included under the NT banner of the Church. This is further confirmed by the meanings of the names of the listed tribes and substitutes (Levi and Joseph replacing Dan and Ephraim), describing spiritual qualities and experiences of those who comprise the Church:

• Judah means “praise” (Gen 29:35)
• Reuben means “see, a Son” (Gen 29:32)
• Gad means “fortunate” (Gen 30:11)
• Asher means “happy” (Gen 30:13)
• Naphtali means “wrestling” (Gen 30:8)
• Manasseh means “forgetting” (Gen 41:51)
• Simeon means “heard” (Gen 29:33)
• Levi means “attached” (Gen 29:34)
• Issachar means “wages” (Gen 30:18)
• Zebulon means “dwelling” (Gen 30:20)
• Joseph means “He will add” (Gen 30:24)
• Benjamin means “Son of the right hand” (Gen 35:17–18)

Similarly, the meanings of the names of Dan and Ephraim convey the reasons for their exclusion:

• Dan means “a serpent by the way”(Genesis 49:17)

Satan in the guise of the serpent was responsible for the fall of mankind in Genesis 3, and for the bruising of Messiah's heel in Scripture's first recorded prophecy of Genesis 3:15. It was the same serpent Satan whose head Messiah bruised at Calvary.

• Ephraim means “fruitful in the land of mine affliction” (Genesis 41:52)

The reference to “the land of mine affliction” in Ephraim's name's meaning is to that of Egypt, which in Scripture is both a literal and spiritual reality and symbol of bondage. But the Church, God's Chosen People, do not inhabit a land of spiritual affliction and bondage. Rather, they inhabit the Heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Sion (Hebrews 12:22,23), located in the Heavenly Country that God has prepared for the faithful (Hebrews 11:16).

Of additional significance is the order in which the names are presented, differing from the usual presentation by order of birth. In particular, Judah appears first, in recognition of its role as the tribal progenitor of Christ, the Lion of Judah.

While rebellion and apostasy were repetitive afflictions of the OT Israelites, there were still thousands who remained faithful (1 Kings 19:18). Their number is depicted as 12, a scriptural value representing faithfulness; multiplied by 12, representing the faithful from each of the twelve tribes; multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number (Psalms 50:10; Psalms 91:7; Revelation 5:11) of the total faithful in Israel; thus, 144,000.

Revelation 14 continues the descriptions further reflecting the qualities and experiences of the redeemed – the Church. Absent here is any mention of tribal, ethnic, or other distinctions, thus conveying the reality of the inclusivity and unity of the NT Church which now embraces both Israelite and Gentile. Its number can also be depicted as 12, representing faithfulness; multipled by 12 representing the 12 faithful apostles, who with the prophets comprise the foundation of the NT church, with Christ as the Chief Cornerstone (Ephesians 2:20); multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number of the total faithful in the NT Church; thus, also 144,000.

The NT Church's inclusivity and unity are declared in the following:

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:14
For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall…

Colossians 3:11
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.


The 144,00 are described as celibate, meaning that as the Bride of Christ, they are not defiled by adultery with the world (James 4:4). They sing a new song of deliverance and victory. They follow Christ wherever He goes. Their residence is heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Zion. (Hebrews 12:22)

No doubt about it…the Church is written all over the 144,000.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The Church and the 144,000

Revelation 7:3-4 describe the 144,000 as “sealed.” That description is reserved in the NT for believers in Christ – His Body and Bride – His Church

Yes, that's precisely what I said! Peter was addressing the Christian remnant of Israel. That remnant, according to Paul, stands in for Israel until finally, the nation comes back to assume reliance upon God as a whole.

Rom 11. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:
“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."

The Revelation 7 passage is therefore conveying the insight that the OT Israelitish faithful saints of God are included under the NT banner of the Church.

I don't think so. Rev 7 is talking about the endtimes, and protection for Christians in Israel in the last 3.5 years of the age. But it's a difficult passage, and I'm not relying exclusively on that.

 

[Keraz]

You are redefining "Israel, the nation" to be something other than literal Israel.

The Jewish claim to be literal Israel, is invalid and does not stand in the sight of God. They are, if anything: the State of Judah and they continue to reject Jesus and they outlaw Christianity.

The scripture; the Prophecy of Jeremiah 12:14, which I have posted before, but seems to just get glossed over, is the one that most clearly tells what the fate of Judah will be:
Jeremiah 12:14-16 These are the Words of the Lord: I am against all those evil neighbours who have encroached onto the Land that My Israelite people will inherit. Take note; I will pluck them out from where they are now and also I will pluck out the House of Judah as well. After I have removed them, I will Return and have compassion on them, bringing them back to their heritage, if they will diligently learn the Way of My people, to only swear by My Name: the Living God. But if they refuse, then I will completely remove and destroy them.

This Bible passage is extremely informative, it gives the Lord’s plans for three groups of people.

1/ The evil neighbours; The Islamic nations and entities surrounding Israel. Soon to be cleared out of the entire Middle East region by the terrible Day of the Lord’s wrath by fire from the sun. Psalms 83:1-18, Isaiah 30:25-30, Amos 1:1-11

2/ The House of Judah, the Jewish people, currently inhabiting a part of the holy Land. The same fate as the neighbours, but a remnant will survive. Amos2:4-5, Isaiah 29:1-4, Isaiah 6:11-13, Zechariah 13:8-9, Romans 9:27

3/ My people; the true Israelites of God, every Christian believer; individuals from every tribe, race, nation and language. Followers of the right Way and keepers of the Commandments. Revelation 5:9-10, 1 Peter 2:9-10

The story described here, is clear and concise: The Lord is about to solve all the Middle East problems, to a similar degree as how He reset civilization in Noah’s time. All the holy land will be depopulated, Jeremiah 10:18, excepting a small remnant of Messianic Jews who will shelter in bunkers in Jerusalem. Isaiah 29:1-4, Romans 9:27

This will allow the gathering and settling of His righteous Christian people, Jew and Gentile, Jeremiah 50:4-5; into their heritage where they will, at last be the people He always wanted there; a people who will be His witnesses and display His light to the nations. Isaiah 43:10, Isaiah 49:8
Proved by how it is God's holy people who are there during the last days: Daniel 7:25, Revelation 13:5-8

 

[Randy Kluth]

The Jewish claim to be literal Israel, is invalid and does not stand in the sight of God. They are, if anything: the State of Judah and they continue to reject Jesus and they outlaw Christianity...

3/ My people; the true Israelites of God, every Christian believer; individuals from every tribe, race, nation and language. Followers of the right Way and keepers of the Commandments. Revelation 5:9-10, 1 Peter 2:9-10

As I said, you are *redefining* Israel, from being the Jewish People aspiring to live in the land of Israel to represent "every Christian believer." We disagree on this--no sense continually asserting our beliefs to each other back and forth when no more arguments exist that haven't already been given.

 

[covenantee]

When I address any nation, it obviously includes immigrants, nationalized citizens, minorities, and converts to the prevailing religion who reside in that land.

So 1 Peter 2:9 includes Christian Gentiles.

But haven't you been telling us that it includes only Christian Jews because Peter's letter is addressed only to Christian Jews?

 

[covenantee]

It's called Grace, brother.

There is no Grace without Faith, brother.


Romans 1:17
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Romans 3:30
Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Romans 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 5:1
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Romans 5:2
By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Romans 9:30
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.


And only a remnant of Israel will ever possess and exercise the faith necessary to be saved. (Romans 9:27)

A remnant identified by faith (and obedience).

Spiritual DNA.

 

[Randy Kluth]

So 1 Peter 2:9 includes Christian Gentiles.

But haven't you been telling us that it includes only Christian Jews because Peter's letter is addressed only to Christian Jews?

Yes, the exiles were the Jewish People, notwithstanding the fact there may have been a few non-Jews among them, or converts to the faith.

The Jewish nation may be inclusive of a few Gentile converts or nationalized citizens. But we're not addressing the exceptions, but the whole group.

The nation of Israel does not become a non-Jewish nation simply because it consists of a few individuals that are not Jews. A nation is the whole group, and is often identified by the dominant ethnicity, in this case the Jewish People.

 

[Randy Kluth]

There is no Grace without Faith, brother.

The following is biblically identified as "grace," and did not begin with faith...

1 John 4.10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins... 19 We love because he first loved us.

 

[covenantee]

You are redefining "Israel, the nation" to be something other than literal Israel.

Let's further investigate the literalism which you apply to the holy nation in 1 Peter 2:9. Your claim is that because Israel is a literal nation in Exodus 19:6, therefore it is also a literal nation in 1 Peter 2:9.

If the nation is literal, then all other descriptions in Exodus 19:6 and 1 Peter 2:9 must be literal as well. Exodus 19:6 refers to a kingdom of priests. The corresponding description in 1 Peter 2:9 is a royal priesthood.

The Exodus 19:6 priests were priests of the Old Covenant.

Therefore the priesthood of 1 Peter 2:9 must be a priesthood of the Old Covenant.

To be literal.