National Covenant

[Randy Kluth]

It's surprising, from an historical pov, that so many on these forums and elsewhere utterly reject any notion of God making covenants with nations today. Clearly, God made a covenant with the nation Israel during the period of the Mosaic Law. That covenant failed, even as the original promise God made to Abraham persisted in connection with Israel.

The importance of this should not be underappreciated. If God made covenants with nations, and not just with individuals, then He still does so today--God does not change. I believe God made many covenants with entire nations in the NT period--they were called "Christian nations." Both king and people embraced the Christian religion, which is tantamount to making a covenant with God on a national basis.

Many complain about this, stating that salvation is an individual thing, and should not be confused with national covenants, when nations obviously contain mixed elements, both believers and unbelievers, both the righteous and the wicked. Why would God make covenants with entire nations since many within that nation do not warrant salvation?

The answer to this is important. God is interested in both individual salvation and social justice. He wanted the social environment to be amenable to righteous living, so that people within the society are not abused, Christian or not, righteous or not.

There is, however, a price to be paid for God making covenants with entire nations, as I just implied--the wicked have to be put up with for some time. Freedom to make choices, both good and bad, must be tolerated. And as a Christian nation gradually dilutes and compromises, the wicked amass until the Christian minority is isolated and abused.

Then it is that due to the increase of lawlessness in a fallen society many people suffer deception and ignorance, needing deliverance and an outreach to bring them back into the knowledge of God. Allowing nations to determine their destiny obviously impacts individuals who suffer abuses and do not automatically lose their salvation when the nation falls--they have simply fallen into ignorance.

What I'm really doing is telling the tale of Israel. Why have they seem to have been abandoned by God for so long? It is because God makes covenants with nations. And nations determine their own destiny with respect to God's covenant with them, ultimately capitulating to the lowest common denominator.

Then it is that the righteous minority is suppressed and the ignorant majority held back from knowing the way back to reconciliation with God. The Gospel does not easily penetrate a nation in which the righteous have their testimony suppressed! When a nation is allowed to choose to go the wrong way, darkness descends upon the entire people, rendering many ignorant concerning the means to reconcile with God.

At some point it requires judgment upon that nation and upon that people to open back up the message of salvation. And due to the fact God does make covenants with nations, international judgment is what must happen to restore the knowledge of God to people who have been kept in darkness by an ungodly majority in each nation.

 

[covenantee]

It's surprising, from an historical pov, that so many on these forums and elsewhere utterly reject any notion of God making covenants with nations today. Clearly, God made a covenant with the nation Israel during the period of the Mosaic Law.

Not at all surprising.

A nation is comprised of its individuals.

Are you claiming that God made a covenant with every individual within Israel, irrespective of whether or not they were individually faithful and obedient to Him?

If so, why did He slay unfaithful disobedient rebellious Israelites by the thousands?

If they were in covenant relationship with Him, why did He slay them?

 

[Timtofly]

The covenant happened on the Cross. It is called Atonement. It works on the grass roots level.

 

[Truth7t7]

It's surprising, from an historical pov, that so many on these forums and elsewhere utterly reject any notion of God making covenants with nations today. Clearly, God made a covenant with the nation Israel during the period of the Mosaic Law. That covenant failed, even as the original promise God made to Abraham persisted in connection with Israel.

The importance of this should not be underappreciated. If God made covenants with nations, and not just with individuals, then He still does so today--God does not change. I believe God made many covenants with entire nations in the NT period--they were called "Christian nations." Both king and people embraced the Christian religion, which is tantamount to making a covenant with God on a national basis.

Many complain about this, stating that salvation is an individual thing, and should not be confused with national covenants, when nations obviously contain mixed elements, both believers and unbelievers, both the righteous and the wicked. Why would God make covenants with entire nations since many within that nation do not warrant salvation?

The answer to this is important. God is interested in both individual salvation and social justice. He wanted the social environment to be amenable to righteous living, so that people within the society are not abused, Christian or not, righteous or not.

There is, however, a price to be paid for God making covenants with entire nations, as I just implied--the wicked have to be put up with for some time. Freedom to make choices, both good and bad, must be tolerated. And as a Christian nation gradually dilutes and compromises, the wicked amass until the Christian minority is isolated and abused.

Then it is that due to the increase of lawlessness in a fallen society many people suffer deception and ignorance, needing deliverance and an outreach to bring them back into the knowledge of God. Allowing nations to determine their destiny obviously impacts individuals who suffer abuses and do not automatically lose their salvation when the nation falls--they have simply fallen into ignorance.

What I'm really doing is telling the tale of Israel. Why have they seem to have been abandoned by God for so long? It is because God makes covenants with nations. And nations determine their own destiny with respect to God's covenant with them, ultimately capitulating to the lowest common denominator.

Then it is that the righteous minority is suppressed and the ignorant majority held back from knowing the way back to reconciliation with God. The Gospel does not easily penetrate a nation in which the righteous have their testimony suppressed! When a nation is allowed to choose to go the wrong way, darkness descends upon the entire people, rendering many ignorant concerning the means to reconcile with God.

At some point it requires judgment upon that nation and upon that people to open back up the message of salvation. And due to the fact God does make covenants with nations, international judgment is what must happen to restore the knowledge of God to people who have been kept in darkness by an ungodly majority in each nation.

The only covenant God has with man is the shed blood on Calvary "Period"

 

[Keraz]

What I'm really doing is telling the tale of Israel. Why have they seem to have been abandoned by God for so long? It is because God makes covenants with nations.

Unfortunately, you confuse the Jewish State of Israelis with the true faithful Christian Israelites.

The new Covenant has nothing to do either with ethnic Israel, nor with mankind in general, but is only for the Spiritual Israelite individuals; the true Overcomers, who are born again faithful Christian believers; the ones who bear the proper fruit. Matthew 21:43

The Bible’s restoration prophesies do not relate to those who call themselves Jews, or to the citizens of the State of Israel, for they are a part of the world that Jesus spoke about in Revelation 2:20-23, John 15:6, Matthew 21:33-46

Bible teaching could not be clearer: it is we Christians who are the inheritors of God’s Promises to the Patriarchs, Galatians 3:26-29, and it cannot be that God will give His holy Land to anyone who rejects His Son and fails to obey the Commandments.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Not at all surprising.

A nation is comprised of its individuals.

Are you claiming that God made a covenant with every individual within Israel, irrespective of whether or not they were individually faithful and obedient to Him?

If so, why did He slay unfaithful disobedient rebellious Israelites by the thousands?

If they were in covenant relationship with Him, why did He slay them?

Why do you imply that God did not make a covenant with the entire nation when that is precisely what the Scriptures say? He slew the disobedient ones as part of the covenant conditions. If they did not obey they were punished, depending on how bad the disobedience was. When the entire nation went down the tube, the whole nation was cast out of the land.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Unfortunately, you confuse the Jewish State of Israelis with the true faithful Christian Israelites.

It's not something I'm confused about, brother. I just have a different opinion. I don't redefine "Israel" to be the International Church. I realize that many Christians believe this way, but oh well...

 

[covenantee]

Why do you imply that God did not make a covenant with the entire nation when that is precisely what the Scriptures say?

Jeremiah 11:10
They are turned back to the iniquities of their forefathers, which refused to hear my words; and they went after other gods to serve them: the house of Israel and the house of Judah have broken my covenant which I made with their fathers.

This Scripture precisely says that the entire nation broke God's Covenant.

Yet we know that God has always preserved a righteous remnant. (1 Kings 19:18;Isaiah 10:22;Romans 9:27))

So that brings us back to the nature of God's Covenant(s).

They are always with the individual.

A nation is comprised of its individuals.

There is no such thing as a "national" covenant.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Jeremiah 11:10
They are turned back to the iniquities of their forefathers, which refused to hear my words; and they went after other gods to serve them: the house of Israel and the house of Judah have broken my covenant which I made with their fathers.

This Scripture precisely says that the entire nation broke God's Covenant.

Yet we know that God has always preserved a righteous remnant. (1 Kings 19:18;Isaiah 10:22;Romans 9:27))

So that brings us back to the nature of God's Covenant(s).

They are always with the individual.

A nation is comprised of its individuals.

There is no such thing as a "national" covenant.

Sorry, I'd love to accommodate you, but it just isn't true. The Scriptures say not only that God made a covenant with an *entire nation,* but also that He accompanied that covenant with an irrevocable Promise, one that endures all national failures, one that guarantees absolutely that there will be a national restoration.

I'm sorry if you can't see it, but I can't lie. The Scriptures clearly indicate that God made the covenant of Moses not just with individuals, but more, with an entire nation. You have to do some serious rationalizing to make this untrue! Be happy with your beliefs, and keep a clear conscience. God can work out the thorny issues over time.
Exo 24.7 Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read it to the people. They responded, “We will do everything the Lord has said; we will obey.”
Exo 34.9 “Lord,” he said, “if I have found favor in your eyes, then let the Lord go with us. Although this is a stiff-necked people, forgive our wickedness and our sin, and take us as your inheritance.”
10 Then the Lord said: “I am making a covenant with you. Before all your people I will do wonders never before done in any nation in all the world. The people you live among will see how awesome is the work that I, the Lord, will do for you.
...27 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel."

 

[covenantee]

Sorry, I'd love to accommodate you, but it just isn't true. The Scriptures say not only that God made a covenant with an *entire nation,* but also that He accompanied that covenant with an irrevocable Promise, one that endures all national failures, one that guarantees absolutely that there will be a national restoration.

I'm sorry if you can't see it, but I can't lie. The Scriptures clearly indicate that God made the covenant of Moses not just with individuals, but more, with an entire nation. You have to do some serious rationalizing to make this untrue! Be happy with your beliefs, and keep a clear conscience. God can work out the thorny issues over time.
Exo 24.7 Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read it to the people. They responded, “We will do everything the Lord has said; we will obey.”
Exo 34.9 “Lord,” he said, “if I have found favor in your eyes, then let the Lord go with us. Although this is a stiff-necked people, forgive our wickedness and our sin, and take us as your inheritance.”
10 Then the Lord said: “I am making a covenant with you. Before all your people I will do wonders never before done in any nation in all the world. The people you live among will see how awesome is the work that I, the Lord, will do for you.
...27 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel."

Jeremiah 11:10
They are turned back to the iniquities of their forefathers, which refused to hear my words; and they went after other gods to serve them: the house of Israel and the house of Judah have broken my covenant which I made with their fathers.

Do you agree that this Scripture precisely says that the entire nation broke God's Covenant?

 

[covenantee]

Sorry, I'd love to accommodate you, but it just isn't true. The Scriptures say not only that God made a covenant with an *entire nation,* but also that He accompanied that covenant with an irrevocable Promise, one that endures all national failures, one that guarantees absolutely that there will be a national restoration.

I'm sorry if you can't see it, but I can't lie. The Scriptures clearly indicate that God made the covenant of Moses not just with individuals, but more, with an entire nation. You have to do some serious rationalizing to make this untrue! Be happy with your beliefs, and keep a clear conscience. God can work out the thorny issues over time.
Exo 24.7 Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read it to the people. They responded, “We will do everything the Lord has said; we will obey.”
Exo 34.9 “Lord,” he said, “if I have found favor in your eyes, then let the Lord go with us. Although this is a stiff-necked people, forgive our wickedness and our sin, and take us as your inheritance.”
10 Then the Lord said: “I am making a covenant with you. Before all your people I will do wonders never before done in any nation in all the world. The people you live among will see how awesome is the work that I, the Lord, will do for you.
...27 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel."

The fulfillment of God's Covenants.

In God's New Will and Testament, all covenants and promises are fulfilled only in Christ, and in those who are in Christ.

The OT covenants and promises are the promissory clauses of God's Old Will and Testament, and they are both revoked and fulfilled in the promissory clauses of His New Will and Testament, written in the Blood of His Son Jesus Christ, the Divine Testator, coming into full force and effect upon His death.

If you have made your own Will and Testament, you will see that the very first clause states the following or its equivalent:

"I HEREBY REVOKE all former Wills and other testamentary dispositions by me at any time therefore made and declare this to be my Last Will and Testament."

This means that all former wills and testaments, and all of their promissory clauses in their entirety, are completely null and void. In their place, the promissory clauses of the current last new will and testament are the only ones in force and effect. Any promissory clause which appeared in the old will and testament, but does not appear in the new will and testament, is irrevocably null and void unless yet another new will and testament is made which re-includes it.

Thus we see:

Hebrews 9
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Hebrews 10
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Hebrews 8
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

God`s New Will and Testament is everlasting:

Hebrews 13
20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant.

There is none greater.

We see other new promissory clauses of the New Will and Testament in:

Matthew 21:33-45
In this parable, the son, who is identified as the heir, typifies Christ.

Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:20
For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Hebrews 1:1,2
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

In them, we see that the Heir and Beneficiary is Christ alone, that all of the promises are affirmed and confirmed in Him, and that He is Heir of all things. All includes the OT land promises, the restoration promises, the blessings promises, and all else. There are no exceptions.

If you deny that God has appointed His Son heir of all things, you declare God to be a liar.

His New Will and Testament contains even better promises:

Hebrews 8
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Such as:

Hebrews 11
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Additional promissory clauses in...:

Romans 8:16-17
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Galatians 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

...declare that we who are in Christ are joint heirs with Him.

But notice:

There is no "national" New Testament.

And there are no promissory clauses for anyone, Jew or Gentile...

Who is not in Christ.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It's not something I'm confused about, brother. I just have a different opinion. I don't redefine "Israel" to be the International Church. I realize that many Christians believe this way, but oh well...

No one is redefining Israel. Please don't resort to false accusations like this. It reeks of desperation on your part. Some of us recognize that there are two Israels. The nation of Israel and the spiritual Israel of God which is the church. No one is saying there is one Israel and it's redefined as the church.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It's surprising, from an historical pov, that so many on these forums and elsewhere utterly reject any notion of God making covenants with nations today. Clearly, God made a covenant with the nation Israel during the period of the Mosaic Law. That covenant failed, even as the original promise God made to Abraham persisted in connection with Israel.

That covenant has not failed, and it is still in effect. You should study Lev 26 and all the OT prophecy of what will happen when (not if) isreal repents

 

[covenantee]

That covenant has not failed, and it is still in effect. You should study Lev 26 and all the OT prophecy of what will happen when (not if) isreal repents

The Covenant that has not failed is the New Covenant in the Blood of Christ, its Testator and Heir.

None other.

 

[Enoch111]

The importance of this should not be underappreciated. If God made covenants with nations, and not just with individuals, then He still does so today--God does not change.

The only covenant which is in effect right now is the New Covenant. The Bible says that "the whole world lieth in wickedness" therefore God now COMMANDS all men everywhere to repent. There are absolutely no other covenants in place.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Jeremiah 11:10
They are turned back to the iniquities of their forefathers, which refused to hear my words; and they went after other gods to serve them: the house of Israel and the house of Judah have broken my covenant which I made with their fathers.

Do you agree that this Scripture precisely says that the entire nation broke God's Covenant?

Yes, the fact the nation turned to apostasy was predicted from the outset. That has nothing to do with whether God *made* the covenant with Israel to begin with! How can you break a covenant if one wasn't made to begin with?

 

[Randy Kluth]

The fulfillment of God's Covenants.

In God's New Will and Testament, all covenants and promises are fulfilled only in Christ, and in those who are in Christ.

The OT covenants and promises are the promissory clauses of God's Old Will and Testament, and they are both revoked and fulfilled in the promissory clauses of His New Will and Testament, written in the Blood of His Son Jesus Christ, the Divine Testator, coming into full force and effect upon His death.

Yes, we agree that the old covenant was superseded by the new covenant of Christ.

But notice:

There is no "national" New Testament.

And there are no promissory clauses for anyone, Jew or Gentile...

Who is not in Christ.

On the contrary, Paul indicated that the new covenant actually *confirmed* the promises God made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the OT era. One of those promises were made on behalf of the *nation* of Israel. Another of those promises concerned *nations* that would share the faith of Abraham.

I've already supplied a number of passages confirming this, Acts 1.6, 3.19, Rom 4.12-14, 11.11.

Jeremiah 11:10
They are turned back to the iniquities of their forefathers, which refused to hear my words; and they went after other gods to serve them: the house of Israel and the house of Judah have broken my covenant which I made with their fathers.

Do you agree that this Scripture precisely says that the entire nation broke God's Covenant?

In Rom 4 you will see that the Law was given to show that all men and all nations sin and fail. This was to show God's willingness to engage with us as long as we are willing to repent of our waywardness and turn to Christ for the forgiveness of sins. The failure of nations only proves that societies ultimately all go bad. But it does not prove that they can't be rebuilt, following judgment.

 

[Randy Kluth]

No one is redefining Israel. Please don't resort to false accusations like this. It reeks of desperation on your part. Some of us recognize that there are two Israels. The nation of Israel and the spiritual Israel of God which is the church. No one is saying there is one Israel and it's redefined as the church.

My statement reflected my way of describing your position. It was not intended as an insult. If physical Israel is no longer defined strictly as physical Israel, but is now also being defined as a "2nd Israel," then it is still what I call a "redefinition," like it or not. But I don't know why you wouldn't like it--it's precisely what you've been saying!

 

[Randy Kluth]

That covenant has not failed, and it is still in effect. You should study Lev 26 and all the OT prophecy of what will happen when (not if) isreal repents

I believe there is a mix of prophecy and Law in that passage. If Israel repented, after failing, they would be restored to the Law of Moses--even if they are cast out of their land for a time.

In principle God will also forgiven Israel after having been cast out of their land, even if the temple Law is no longer needed. So prophetically, restoration is always available in this life, both for Israel and for us all.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The only covenant which is in effect right now is the New Covenant. The Bible says that "the whole world lieth in wickedness" therefore God now COMMANDS all men everywhere to repent. There are absolutely no other covenants in place.

You didn't address the part where God did, in fact, make covenant with the *nation* of Israel. If He has done so in the past, what is to prevent Him from doing so again? Even more so, we are told God's promises made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the OT era were never revoked.