The Resurrection is for all people (thank you Yeshua!)

[MatthewG]

Zechariah 14:9 The Lord will then be king over all the earth. In that day the Lord will be seen as one with a single name.

(unfulfilled MattG)

Think about this, the LORD seemed to stick around one place in that day in age which he stuck around the region of Jerusalem. The LORD sent his son the Word of God made flesh, and judgement would come upon those who killed him. The Temple was destroyed for the second and final time, and it brought in the age of fulfillment, and now all people around the world have access to the LORD through the Lord Jesus Christ who came, back and took the bride, and came with reward and judgement just as Revelation had said.

I personally believe this has been instated:

6Now, however, Jesus has received a much more excellent ministry, just as the covenant He mediates is better and is founded on better promises. 7For if that first covenant had been without fault, no place would have been sought for a second. 8But God found fault with the people and said:

“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord,

when I will make a new covenant

with the house of Israel

and with the house of Judah.9It will not be like the covenant

I made with their fathers

when I took them by the hand

to lead them out of the land of Egypt,

because they did not abide by My covenant,

and I disregarded them,

declares the Lord.10For this is the covenant I will make

with the house of Israel

after those days,

declares the Lord.

I will put My laws in their minds

and inscribe them on their hearts.

And I will be their God,

and they will be My people.11No longer will each one teach his neighbor or his brother,

saying, ‘Know the Lord,’

because they will all know Me,

from the least of them to the greatest.12For I will forgive their iniquities

and will remember their sins no more.”b

13By speaking of a new covenant,c He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

Do you ever think about these things?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Thank you for sharing @Jane_Doe22.

I haven’t never walked into a LDS church, so not sure what they teach in there all you gotta do is go and find out. Old Shawn was a person who actually was in LDS position for about 40 years of his life as a teacher in one of their facilities. Anyway to each of their own.

I believe that there are Christian’s in Mormon churches, just like there are Christians in Catholic Churches or Christians in Jehovah witnesses churches or whatever no doubt in my mind of the possibilities of that.

Also @stunnedbygrace i don’t believe in annihilation but reconciliation, so you did have my view wrong a bit there on the “annihilation thing”.

God bless.

Ah, okay, I was wrong. You believe the truly wicked will be reconciled? I see a difference between men given over to true wickedness and exceedingly great harm to others and think they are different than the filthy.
I’m speaking of the 4 kinds of men toward the end of revelation. (Wicked, filthy, righteous, holy.)
But I also leave any judging of them to God.

Anyway, I’m out for the night. :)

 

[MatthewG]

It's just my over all hope.

Does God truly desire for people to perish in the sense of they are no more?

Now I believe the Devil, the False Prophet and the Beast have been done away completely but the thing is for human beings.

Human beings, is who Jesus Christ came to die for, and he did bring forth judgement to those who even killed him, and 1,000,000 jews lost their lives. The bride was taken, and a remnant remained.

Now I understand many people still believe Jesus is going to come back but biblically and contextually the logical reasoning seems to be for them in that day in age when He would come back and thus the Temple for the second and final time was destroyed.

Now when it comes to heaven, what do you believe it will be like?

Truly no one knows but only little slivers and glimpses.

I believe perhaps there will be jobs for us to do in heaven, to keep us from getting bored . . . and one of those jobs I would like to have for God is to go out and minister to those who are out in the darkness who do not really desire to dwell in the light.

Is that a bad hope? God forbid! God forbid, he would allow people to reside out of the kingdom, those filthy, wicked, vile people should be eliminated is what some may say from their own voices with-in their heart...

Just remember this, every lost thing that is found has a value, that includes a value to God when lost people are found to come to see the need for the light.

Scripture exclaims that eventually ever knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is the Lord, be it in heaven, or earth, or even underneath the earth (not sure what that means).

However if that is the case, do you believe that God can get what he wants? What he desires that none shall perish? That there is a possible place outside the kingdom? John talks about it, sure it is a silver vision of the heavenly realm, but just know this.

As believers today we are meant to Love God First, (Always him first), and to love others second.

How important that is to you, I do not know. May God guide you by the spirit and may you enjoy life to the best of your own ability and pray and give thanks to God Almighty.

All in love,
Matthew Gallagher

 

[Lambano]

All I have is what Jesus talked about, there is resurrection of life, and resurrection of judgement or condemnation. (There is afterlife loss for them, and they don't have very much spirituality built up in them as those who follow and look to Christ.)

And what John said about those outside the kingdom, perhaps they do not have any devotion to God but they are outside the Kingdom.

Now don't get me wrong, if you have a difference of belief, it is all about loving people and loving God first.

Your thoughts on it @Lambano?

My thoughts? Outside the Kingdom is the Outer Darkness. And it's VERY dark, since God is the light of the New Jerusalem. With no food, the Tree of Life being inside the walls. And dry; no Living Water. But with poisonous snakes. And jackals.

So, other than the lack of flames to light the eternal night and maybe no smell of burning sulfur, how does this differ from the traditional view of Hell?

 

[MatthewG]

My thoughts? Outside the Kingdom is the Outer Darkness. And it's VERY dark, since God is the light of the New Jerusalem. With no food, the Tree of Life being inside the walls. And dry; no Living Water. But with poisonous snakes. And jackals.

So, other than the lack of flames to light the eternal night and maybe no smell of burning sulfur, how does this differ from the traditional view of Hell?

Interesting take, thank you for your insights, Lambano. What does Lambano stand for is it like Jesus being Rambo but only Lambano. :) Of course I am kidding but I digress.

What is the traditional view of hell that you know about exactly brother?

 

[Lambano]

And the great news is this my friend.

2 Corinthians 5:19
19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Paul's job description is:

20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

Relationships are two-sided. God may be reconciled to the world, but not all people wish to be reconciled to God. If outside the Kingdom is extremely unpleasant, do you see this as a disciplinary action, God's final attempt to bring those outside the Kingdom to repentance and reconciliation?

 

[Lambano]

Interesting take, thank you for your insights, Lambano. What does Lambano stand for is it like Jesus being Rambo but only Lambano. :) Of course I am kidding but I digress.

Lambano (Gr. λαμβάνω), is the verb, "to receive, to take" used in John 1:12:

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name.

It's a verse that has personal meaning to me.

 

[Lambano]

What is the traditional view of hell that you know about exactly brother?

Did you ever hear a Baptist "fire-and-brimstone" sermon? Eternal torment.

 

[MatthewG]

Paul's job description is:

20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

Relationships are two-sided. God may be reconciled to the world, but not all people wish to be reconciled to God. If outside the Kingdom is extremely unpleasant, do you see this as a disciplinary action, God's final attempt to bring those outside the Kingdom to repentance and reconciliation?

What are your thoughts on it? Are you someone who believes God can get what he wills and desires? That all shall confess? In their own time? How can they confess but by the Holy Spirit, the only thing that remains is their disbelief?

Did you ever hear a Baptist "fire-and-brimstone" sermon? Eternal torment.

I always like how Jesus explained it better than some people on the pulpit and what I mean by that is the rich man and Lazarus parable, of what Sheol was like.

I never heard first hand a sermon on it exactly my early life wasn’t filled with going to church, my teenage life was though just to go and see people, my adult life is very seldom today of going into churches.

 

[Lambano]

What are your thoughts on it? Are you someone who believes God can get what he wills and desires? That all shall confess? In their own time? How can they confess by the Holy Spirit, the only thing that remains is their disbelief?

Indeed, what can stop God?

I'll give you an answer straight out of the Westminster Confession of Faith: God is sovereign, and the only limitations on His actions are those He sovereignly imposes on Himself.

The "free-will" question comes into play here because if God desires that Humans confess Him and love Him and obey Him out of their own free will (if such a thing exists), that logically may require Him to impose restrictions on His own actions. I say "may require"; since God has a perfect knowledge of every person's psychology, He could set up external conditions such that the person will be guaranteed to choose Him of their own free will.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Thank you for sharing @Jane_Doe22.

I haven’t never walked into a LDS church, so not sure what they teach in there all you gotta do is go and find out. Old Shawn was a person who actually was in LDS position for about 40 years of his life as a teacher in one of their facilities. Anyway to each of their own.
God bless.

Note: every Mormon teaches constantly. We don't have professional clergy, but instead it's normal everyday folks giving sermons, teaching Sunday School, etc. It's a big job so pretty yeah, everyone is teaching someone regularly.

I also believe that their are people whom truly love Christ & strive to follow Him in every denomination. Salvation is through faith, not our ability to pass a theology. That being said, I am also for accuracy, and hence will speak up when someone's got things mixed up about "Mormon" beliefs. Just as I also strive to accurately understand what you believe, Catholics believe, etc.

 

[MatthewG]

Indeed, what can stop God?

I'll give you an answer straight out of the Westminster Confession of Faith: God is sovereign, and the only limitations on His actions are those He sovereignly imposes on Himself.

The "free-will" question comes into play here because if God desires that Humans confess Him and love Him and obey Him out of their own free will (if such a thing exists), that logically may require Him to impose restrictions on His own actions. I say "may require"; since God has a perfect knowledge of every person's psychology, He could set up external conditions such that the person will be guaranteed to choose Him of their own free will.

That is cool, I disagree with the premise.

Many people limit God, however I was asking what you believed personally to my questions.

Can God get his desires and his want for none to perish? Is it possible for God? Or is God limited by man’s reasonings?

Anyway this is my retort against the thing you shared from sir, with something Paul stated.

“What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision? Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God. For what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect? Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. As it is written: “That You may be justified in Your words, And may overcome when You are judged.””
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:1-4‬ ‭NKJV‬‬


I believe that even God has faith in those who are faithless and has hope for them to turn to Him. This very profound to me, personally.

 

[MatthewG]

Note: every Mormon teaches constantly. We don't have professional clergy, but instead it's normal everyday folks giving sermons, teaching Sunday School, etc. It's a big job so pretty yeah, everyone is teaching someone regularly.

I also believe that their are people whom truly love Christ & strive to follow Him in every denomination. Salvation is through faith, not our ability to pass a theology. That being said, I am also for accuracy, and hence will speak up when someone's got things mixed up about "Mormon" beliefs. Just as I also strive to accurately understand what you believe, Catholics believe, etc.

Okay, thank you sharing. If anyone wants to know what they teach they should join and go see for themselves, but shouldn’t try impose their beliefs on anyone but they can learn whatever it is they have to offer first hand, Jane. What do they call the Church now has it changed in the past few years?

 

[face2face]

?

Explain the nature of worship in the Kingdom age?
Who is its King?
It's capital?
It's form of worship?
It's place of worship?
It's subject's?
What will be its laws?
No personal opinions please MattG, I think I can speak on behalf of the forum to say we have all seen enough of those.

 

[Earburner]

@Earburner

The thing is, I believe that God want and desire is 2 Peter 3:9 and he will get what he wants. Meaning that none will perish.

Sure people died, 1,000,000 jewish people died on the day of the return of the Lord in Jerusalem in 70 Ad ,and judgement was made against them in which their whole area burnt down with fire and the elements melted.

So, I don't believe that Jesus is coming back anymore, and he had already returned and got his bride and now today we simply wrestle our own soul. Will we repent of our former ways and look to God or will we not. Are there after life consequences for doing so, yes I believe so.

Are all people annihilated? I mean destroyed, ruined? To some degree for non-believers yes, but for believers? Everyone reaps what they sow.

I believe there are two places for people after this life, in the heavenly realms those outside the kingdom who died faithless, and those who are in the kingdom with God because of their faith and it is based on having love for God and having love for others.

Yes, I know that you believe that Jesus spiritually came back, showing that 70AD was the evidence of His return.
No offense, but your thinking is just as much incomplete, as those who are "looking for" Jesus to physically appear, in what they think is the second coming.

But, just so you know, I also believe that Jesus came back/returned spiritually, and in a way that most all DO KNOW about, but don't understand it, because "CHURCH-IANITY" has derailed them from thinking it through.

I trust that you have heard me say that OUR salvation is a two stage process.
So, for a few brief moments, please hear me out, and try to digest it through His Spirit. Please pay particular attention to that which I have hi-lited in red.

Before we can be physically resurrected, we must be spiritually quickened (made alive to God).
Now, I am going to ask you to divorce yourself from your mind, and put on the Mind of Christ who is within you, because what is going to be revealed through me, is not currently in the visible churches at all, that I know of, however I am sure that I am not the only one thinking about it. Here it is:

Many are being led astray by the term "The Second Coming", when in reality THAT coming of Jesus will be "The Third appearance of Jesus".
Let that digest.

1. First appearance in the likeness of our flesh.
Luke 2:4-14. [10] And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
[11] For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
[12] And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger.

2. Second appearance in the Spirit, aka the Holy Spirit. John 3:7, John 14:18, Romans 8:8-9, Revelation 3:20.
Hebrews 9[28] So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look ["seek"] for him shall he appear the second time without sin UNTO salvation. See Luke 11:9-13 for understanding.

3. Third appearance in the physical Glory of Flaming fire, in the Glory of His Immortality.
2 Thessalonians 1[7] And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
[8] In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
[9] Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
[10] When he shall come to be Glorified IN his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Edit: I repeat: John 14:18
[18] I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

 

[Lambano]

All I have is what Jesus talked about, there is resurrection of life, and resurrection of judgement or condemnation. (There is afterlife loss for them, and they don't have very much spirituality built up in them as those who follow and look to Christ.)

And what John said about those outside the kingdom, perhaps they do not have any devotion to God but they are outside the Kingdom.

Let me reflect back what I think you're saying you believe:

1. Those who have been resurrected for condemnation are exiled outside of the Kingdom of God
2. The area outside the gates of the Kingdom, being for the purpose of judgement and condemnation, is not as pleasant as inside the Kingdom.
3. Exile from the Kingdom is not permanent; ALL those so exiled will eventually reconcile with God.

Have I understood you correctly?

Point 2 I'm not sure what you believe. Does the space outside the Kingdom have nice areas for those who reconcile with God, and ghettoes for those who have not yet reconciled?

Related issue from point 3: If those resurrected to condemnation do eventually reconcile, do you see them being welcomed into the New Jerusalem, or do you see them being moved to the better sections outside the gates, or what?

 

[Lambano]

I always like how Jesus explained it better than some people on the pulpit and what I mean by that is the rich man and Lazarus parable, of what Sheol was like.

I'm sorry, but I have to press you on my original question: Jesus described the space outside the Kingdom gates as "the Outer Darkness", a place of "wailing and gnashing of teeth". Do you see the area outside the Kingdom as punitive and unpleasant, or what? Other than eschatological timing (before vs. after resurrection), do you see any difference between Sheol/Hades as explained in the Lazarus parable and the area outside the Kingdom of God?

Just working through what it is you believe, and what the logical implications are. It doesn't matter to me.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Oh, I’m sorry. You can learn from it though! Go back, read it all again, and try to figure out where you lost his willingness to talk with you. I think you ran up against resistance to your own doctrines, maybe at labeling him a universalist? Because I’ve read his posts far more often than I’ve responded to them and he’s actually learned and altered as he goes along, (which we all should be doing) and I don’t think he’s a “universalist” but quite possibly could be leaning in favor of more mercy than most mens doctrines allow concerning God. If anything, he has maybe seen that doctrines don’t have all understanding of most matters. I’d guess (could be wrong) that he’s leaning hard against eternal torture of humans and more toward a more merciful annihilation, and I don’t blame him, because eternal torture of humans is despicable to me also. It actually ends at an odd place where humans (even those who haven’t yet received the down payment of the Spirit) appear to be MORE merciful than God.

Let me quote from his very first post. In his opening statement he alerts the reader concerning the content of his thread saying, "I’m going to post a view points here of general references to Resurrection being for all people."

The doctrine of the general resurrection of the dead is without controversy among Bible believing Christians. Thus, when someone begins a thread concerning a doctrine that remains without dispute, concerning a subject upon which all Christians agree, then the OP seems to invite the reader to assume a tacit controversy. And what is the most likely "unspoken" controversy concerning the general resurrection: the doctrine of universalism. And so I, and others entered the conversation on that basis.

@Christophany responded with an appropriate response, in my opinion saying, "So much for the false doctrine of universalism and that there is a resurrection of condemnation, everlasting judgement/contempt/ shame/ eternal torment and others to life/bliss with Jesus." From this response, we can see that I wasn't the only one who concluded that the topic of discussion was universalism.

At post 57, @Aunty Jane argues well against universalism, citing several Bible passages accompanied by insightful commentary. (And I don't mean to leave out the others who also argued against the doctrine.) But consider that @MatthewG never once corrects our assumptions or makes a clear declaration that the thread is NOT about universalism. This course of action is highly dishonest, in my opinion. We don't discover the actual intended subject topic until post #96, which I missed because I don't typically read through an entire thread.

I assumed, perhaps wrongly, that the opening post defines the topic of discussion, and since my time on the boards is limited (I am using up work time to post this) I typically respond to the original post. I was lead to believe that the topic of discussion was universalism, and after reviewing much of this thread again, I have no evidence to change my opinion. And from all appearances @MatthewG was reticent to engage in an honest examination of his topic, (which was not universalism) hiding the actual topic which lead to all this confusion. The intended topic of discussion seems to be "eternal suburbia" and all of the isolation and alienation associated with that lifestyle.

I am so angry at being deceived and disappointed this time around that I'm seriously considering whether online discussion is worth my time anymore. I now question whether or not my direct answers to questions are helpful, whether my lengthy exegesis of a passage is helpful, or whether my words of encouragement are needed or required. At this point, I wonder if the darkness is beyond human repair. Why can't we be honest and real with each other?

 

[MatthewG]

I'm sorry, but I have to press you on my original question: Jesus described the space outside the Kingdom gates as "the Outer Darkness", a place of "wailing and gnashing of teeth". Do you see the area outside the Kingdom as punitive and unpleasant, or what? Other than eschatological timing (before vs. after resurrection), do you see any difference between Sheol/Hades as explained in the Lazarus parable and the area outside the Kingdom of God?

Just working through what it is you believe, and what the logical implications are. It doesn't matter to me.

I have told you already. It seems I have to keep repeating myself.


“Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭22:14-15‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

 

[MatthewG]

Let me reflect back what I think you're saying you believe:

1. Those who have been resurrected for condemnation are exiled outside of the Kingdom of God
2. The area outside the gates of the Kingdom, being for the purpose of judgement and condemnation, is not as pleasant as inside the Kingdom.
3. Exile from the Kingdom is not permanent; ALL those so exiled will eventually reconcile with God.

Have I understood you correctly?

Point 2 I'm not sure what you believe. Does the space outside the Kingdom have nice areas for those who reconcile with God, and ghettoes for those who have not yet reconciled?

Related issue from point 3: If those resurrected to condemnation do eventually reconcile, do you see them being welcomed into the New Jerusalem, or do you see them being moved to the better sections outside the gates, or what?

I don’t know.

All I know I believe that God will get what he desires.

And all shall confess…

Don’t you believe that?