Is Sunday the "New Covenant Sabbath"?

[stunnedbygrace]

However, the Presumptuous Man deliberately climbs down into the pit of sin, sits comfortably among the filth, repeatedly swats away the uplifting hand of Jesus

So…the pit of sin we’re talking about is not observing outwardly a Saturday going to gather together and not outwardly ceasing any labor? (That was a question). So anyone who meets on Sunday, or Thursday night or who thinks every day is alike holy, has climbed down into the pit of sin? Do I have your thought right?

 

[BarneyFife]

Who told you Saturday is "the" seventh day?

 

[BarneyFife]

So…the pit of sin we’re talking about is not observing outwardly a Saturday going to gather together and not outwardly ceasing any labor? (That was a question). So anyone who meets on Sunday, or Thursday night or who thinks every day is alike holy, has climbed down into the pit of sin? Do I have your thought right?

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For the purpose of getting a clear picture of the Christian's duty toward God, does it really matter what any man's thought is regarding the pit of sin?

Is this a fair question for me to ask?
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[Phoneman777]

So…the pit of sin we’re talking about is not observing outwardly a Saturday going to gather together and not outwardly ceasing any labor? (That was a question). So anyone who meets on Sunday, or Thursday night or who thinks every day is alike holy, has climbed down into the pit of sin? Do I have your thought right?

We have to remember "in times of ignorance, God winked at". No one is going to hell for refusing to keep the Sabbath who's never come under Holy Spirit conviction. In fact, it's not commandment breaking at all that condemns us to hell, neither obedience punches our ticket to heaven.

Obedience or the lack thereof is the outward evidence of our chosen inward spiritual condition. The Christian is faithful always to that which he is convicted, though he may stumble and fall into the pit of sin, at which time he will cry out to God Who will lift him up, wipe him down, and set him back on the Path of the Just.

As we walk the Path, God gradually points out our spots and blemishes, not all at once, because if He did, we'd flee in terror from His holiness. "I have much to show you, but you cannot bear it all" said Jesus to His disciples.

The moment we come under conviction, God expects us to conform. It may take some time, but the sincere Christian will always surrender his will to God's will. For the Christian who makes up his mind to not repent, the process of grieving away the Holy Spirit begins and ends when the conscience becomes seared and the Holy Spirit is quenched, meaning the "dead nerves" of their conscience no longer FEEL the Holy Spirit's impress no longer FEEL the need to repent just as a glass of water quenches thirst so that we no longer FEEL thirsty. The Sabbath is important because it can be shown to have end times prophetic implications regarding the final end times battle between God and Satan.

 

[Phoneman777]

Everyone knows which day is the Sabbath and it's not the day observed by them, which is why so much effort is made to obscure it, replace it, delegitimize it, and demonize it.

 

[Phoneman777]

Well put. I wouldn't say it's easy yet, but I'm working on it.

The Just Man falls seven times and rises up again as he learns to walk the Path of the Just, just as a baby learning to walk falls often and cries out to God for help.

Does the father curse the child and swat the child and leave the child down and dirtied, or does he reach down with a smile to pick the child up and wipe his tears and encourage him to keep trying, knowing that one day he'll be not only walking but running all over the place?

Likewise, the Just Man can be assured of such grace, abundant and inexhaustible.

However, the Presumptuous Man who climbs down and refuses to be lifted up can expect nothing from God.

 

[BarneyFife]

Everyone knows which day is the Sabbath and it's not the day observed by them, which is why so much effort is made to obscure it, replace it, delegitimize it, and demonize it.

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Well, the devil despises the Sabbath because (as he will be faced with during the millennium) being "like the Most High" means having the power to create something from nothing, something that he just can't pull off.
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[stunnedbygrace]

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For the purpose of getting a clear picture of the Christian's duty toward God, does it really matter what any man's thought is regarding the pit of sin?

Is this a fair question for me to ask?
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It’s a very fair question.
My only concern for this man is that he appears to me to be basing his judgement of other men on outward appearance. I believe it’s not righteous judgement and that it is harmful to himself. I also believe it’s looking at outward appearance rather than by how we were told we would know, by fruit that comes from the Spirit.
I see he is firmly entrenched in this, but it can’t stop me from speaking my mind. I have to speak. Though I won’t do so in bitterness or acrimony.

 

[BarneyFife]

It’s a very fair question.
My only concern for this man is that he appears to me to be basing his judgement of other men on outward appearance. I believe it’s not righteous judgement and that it is harmful to himself. I also believe it’s looking at outward appearance rather than by how we were told we would know, by fruit that comes from the Spirit.
I see he is firmly entrenched in this, but it can’t stop me from speaking my mind. I have to speak. Though I won’t do so in bitterness or acrimony.

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We Adventists often do not speak the Truth in love.
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[stunnedbygrace]

Everyone knows which day is the Sabbath and it's not the day observed by them, which is why so much effort is made to obscure it, replace it, delegitimize it, and demonize it.

Hmm…to my eyes, it doesn’t (at least currently in here) look as though anyone is demonizing you for believing Saturday’s are important and holy days. It rather looks as if you are the one doing the demonizing of others based on what they are convinced of…with statements that seem to suggest if they don’t do what you do outwardly then they have climbed down into the pit of sin.

 

[PinSeeker]

Everyone knows which day is the Sabbath...

They think they do, yes. Regardless of which side of this issue they stand on. Sure.

...it's not the day observed by them...

You think that; so be it. What's important is observing it ~ remembering it and keeping it holy, as commandment number four says. We have a word for trying to get every jot and tittle right: legalism. Not that it's not important to practice things as God prescribes because it is, of course. Do what you decide in your heart it is right for you to do ~ as you are led by the Holy Spirit ~ and do not judge or condemn others for doing the same, as the latter is at best Pharisaical, and at worst sitting in the Seat that only God rightfully occupies. In either case, there are consequences.

...so much effort is made to obscure it, replace it, delegitimize it, and demonize it.

No one here is doing that, Phoneman. Only accusations of such. As Paul says in Romans 14, though, "(o)ne person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike." His resolution is immediately following, that "(e)ach one should be fully convinced in his own mind... (t)he one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord" ~ and it seems to be the case that everyone here is doing just that.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[EloyCraft]

Remember Jesus telling Nicodemus " we teach what we see yet no one accepts our witness.


That' describes the Holy Spirit guidance for Jesus and the Church. The Church's development of faith is not intellectual concoctions, or someone's interior inspiration. That's what non-catholic Christians do.

The Church was in the beginning observing Sabbath at the Temple and Sunday gathering. Not knowing that they would be forbidden to enter any Jewish synagogue one day.
They knew if the OT Sabbath was an obligation there would be a way to fulfill it. That was divine guidance. What is taught is what was seen. Not a manmade concoction as if Truth isn't witnessed by necessity externally. Then after they know what is true they can be inspired individually by the Holy Spirit to understand more deeply what is shown.

 

[Philip James]

Also, the Catechism of the Catholic church has completely removed the 2nd commandment which forbids bowing down to images, obviously because image worship is a key component of the Catholic faith.

That we number the commandments differently from you in no ways means they have been removed..

Catechism of the Catholic Church - IntraText

Pax et Bonum

 

[BarneyFife]

That we number the commandments differently from you in ways means they have been removed..

Catechism of the Catholic Church - IntraText

Pax et Bonum

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We're quite aware of the "think(ing) to change times and laws."
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[EloyCraft]

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We're quite aware of the "think(ing) to change times and laws."
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Our faith isn't from human thinking. What exactly is your evidence?

If a teaching comes from above it is seen. Like Jesus told Nicodemus. If seen it is not human thinking. It is believed regardless of human understanding. It's from above. When believed human reason is able to ascend to faith from above .

Barney, how do you know if a doctrine comes from above or is from human thinking?

 

[Bob Estey]

You didn't quote me properly.

 

[post]

Many today foolishly argue that Christians aren't obligated to keep the Ten Commandments but refuse to say we may disregard even one of them. A blind man can see both claims can't simultaneously be true any more than a woman can be both pregnant and not pregnant at the same time.

This OP is not for them.
It's for the mature, reasonable, thinking Christian who recognizes the Ten Commandments aren't the Ten Suggestions - the Christian who's been taught to keep the "New Covenant Christian Sabbath" - Sunday.​

Hebrews 9:16-17 KJV says in order for a testament ("covenant") to go into effect aka "ratified", there must first be the death of the "testator". Moreover, Galatians 3:15 KJV says once it's ratified, no man can add or take away anything from it. This is easily seen today at any reading of a "last will and testament".

Q. What ratified the Old Covenant?
A. The blood of bulls and goats.

Q. What ratified the New Covenant?
A. The blood of Jesus.

Q. When did Sunday keeping begin?
A. Even if the first Sunday after the Crucifixion was kept, it is still 3 days too late to be included in the New Covenant.

Therefore, those of us who know the New Covenant consists of the Ten Commandments that were once written in stone but are now written on the heart (2 Corinthians 3:1-3 KJV; Hebrews 8:8-10 KJV) must accept that Sunday is still only a work day as are the other six days, and cannot replace the eternal 7th day Sabbath as some "New Covenant Christian Sabbath".

of course the sabbath isn't sunday.

that's as ridiculous as saying the new covenant is the 10 commandments.

see Deuteronomy 4:13 -- God specifies explicitly that the 10 commandments are the old covenant.

 

[post]

sign of the Abrahamic covenant: physical circumcision
sign of the Mosaic covenant: physical sabbath inactivity
sign of the new covenant: physical baptism ((tho some will argue the Lord's supper))

in no case does the sign supplant the reality.

Colossians 2:11, Romans 2:25-29, 1 Corinthians 7:19 & the witness of the epistle to the Galatians show that physical circumcision is nothing more than a sign and cannot avail, even can become sin if one is basing their salvation on completion of the rite.
the witness of the confrontations of the pharisees with Christ throughout the gospels, as well as the explicit commands in Romans 14 & Colossians 2 show physical sabbath observation is nothing more than a sign and avails nothing. likewise with the witness of Galatians, sabbath-observation in the flesh can be sin, a mockery of Christ, if one bases their salvation on its ceremonial keeping.
in the same way water baptism avails nothing in and of itself: Matthew 3:11, Luke 3:16, Mark 1:8, Acts 1:5, Acts 11:16 all testify of this -- for the baptism that is effective is the one that actually places us in Christ, just as 1 Corinthians 10:2 tells us all Israel was baptized into Moses, yet not all Israel is saved nor is even all Israel, "Israel" -- in fact 1 Corinthians 10:2 shows us a pattern, saying that they were baptized through the cloud and sea, demonstrating that it is a sign, that the reality is not merely carnally carrying out a right, but spiritual -- as God testifies, His word is Spirit: the flesh profits nothing ((John 6:63)) and His apostle testifies, it is the Spirit that seals us, not ritual ceremony, not H2O, not cutting of the flesh.

even if we admit the Lord's supper is the sign of the covenant in Christ's blood, then it remains merely symbolic, unable to avail. for Paul tells us we may drink judgement by taking it ((1 Corinthians 11:29, c.f.e. Proverbs 26:6)) and our Lord God Himself informs us in its instantiation the wine is His blood, the bread His flesh: clearly a symbol, not the reality.

the reality is Christ, oh friends: it is all about Christ, always

God calls sabbath a symbol Himself: Exodus 31:13, Ezekiel 20:12. in two witnesses He explicitly tells us their purpose: that Israel should know it is God who sanctifies. this is a tacit rebuke to the idea that anyone sanctifies themselves; it is by inactivity that sabbath was observed under Moses; by ceasing from one's own work ((c.f.e. Hebrews 4:10 - "whoever enters God's rest")) -- how then can specifically "nothing-doing" on certain days profit for anything? it is a remembrance and shadow, pointing at Christ's doing what neither our doing or non-doing can possibly accomplish.

in yet a third witness by the mouth of God, Hebrews 4 tells us unquestionably that ceremonial sabbath observance in the flesh is a symbolic action - as Colossians 2 again explicitly tells us for yet a 4th witness to those hard of heart and dull of hearing. for Hebrews 4 describes David saying "today" in like manner as the sabbath, and describes the Hebrews in their wandering not entering Canaan as failing to enter rest, and describes even Joshua leading them into the land, physically, as not being entering the true rest.

we must ask ourselves if we are preaching Christ or preaching ritual ceremony.
the Jews scrupulously kept ceremony, but it profited nothing.


what do you meditate on, during sabbath ((friday sundown to saturday sundown))?
do you think about how much better you are than those people who do any physical activity that day?
do you think about how you are blessed because you went to church then instead of sunday, and curse those servants who don't do as you do?
do you imagine that your obedience to the law, which cannot produce righteousness ((Galatians 2:21)), is producing righteousness?
do you thank God that He has taken away that which condemns us?
do you bless the Lord for the promise which is by faith?
do you extol Him for His great mercy and love towards us?
do you plot how to make another sabbath thread & finally "get" all those pesky Christians who won't allow you to judge them?

do you think about Jesus or about yourself? about His works or yours?
do you think about loving others or plot how to persecute and condemn them?

there is no rest, saith my God, for the wicked.

 

[Phoneman777]

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For the purpose of getting a clear picture of the Christian's duty toward God, does it really matter what any man's thought is regarding the pit of sin?

Is this a fair question for me to ask?
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Every one of the Ten Commandments is repeated in the New Testament, including the Sabbath commandment in Hebrews 4:9 KJV (the Greek word "Sabbatismos" which refers to the weekly Sabbath was very poorly translated as "rest" and is why Lamsa's English translation of the Peshitta renders the verse, "It is therefore the duty of the people of God to keep the Sabbath".)

So, the Ten Commandments, which includes the "spirit of the law" is God's expectation, which if we love God and our neighbor, we'll be happy to keep

 

[MatthewG]

Has anyone brought up the scripture?


“Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh day shall be a holy day for you, a Sabbath of rest to the Lord. Whoever does any work on it shall be put to death.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭35:2‬ ‭NKJV‬‬