The Problems of Perpetual Belief Alone Salvation-ism.

[Charlie24]

No. Jesus was making changes to the Law (even before the New Covenant went officially into effect with His death). For Jesus was primarily teaching New Covenant teachings and not Old Covenant teachings during His earthly ministry.

How so?

Jesus clearly was making changes to the Law (even before the cross):
(Which means He was not teaching primarily Old Covenant, but New Covenant):

The Old Way says:
"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth"
(Matthew 5:38 cf. Exodus 21:23-25).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matthew 5:39).


The Old Way says:
"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment" (Matthew 5:21 cf. Numbers 35:30-32).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." (Matthew 5:22).


The Old Way says:
"Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:" (Matthew 5:34 cf. Numbers 30:1-2, Deuteronomy 23:21).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
34 "But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil." (Matthew 5:34-37).


The Old Way says:
"And of thy mercy cut off mine enemies, and destroy all them that afflict my soul: for I am thy servant." (Psalms 143:12).

"And the city shall be accursed, even it, and all that are therein, to the LORD: only Rahab the harlot shall live, she and all that are with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent." (Joshua 6:17).

"And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword." (Joshua 6:21).

16 "But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee" (Deuteronomy 20:16-17).

"They did not destroy the nations, concerning whom the LORD commanded them" (Psalms 106:34).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;" (Matthew 5:44).

Note: Yes, I am aware that the Old Way (Old Testament) also teaches to love one's enemies (Exodus 23:4-5) (Proverbs 25:21), but this was in context to their own Israelite people, and not pagan nations. Pagan nations were to be destroyed when God commanded the Israelites to destroy them. But Jesus taught a radically different way. Love your enemies, and do good to them that hate you, and to pray for those who persecute you.


The Old Way says:
20 "But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:
21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.
22 If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel." (Deuteronomy 22:20-22).

4 "They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?" (John 8:4-5).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. " (John 8:7).

Oh no! Christ was not changing the Law, He was doubling down on it.

He was showing the depth of the Law in the spiritual side as well as the physical.

 

[Rudometkin]

No.

James 1:13-14 says:
“Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.”

You didn't address the verses where God controls Satan to do the tempting. You just denied them.

Try Proverbs 16:4 along with them.

 

[BloodBought 1953]

So you are saying that Paul is above the words of Jesus?



Paul’s words are 100% * EQUAL* to the Words Of Jesus—- NEVER “above” ....Paul never wrote anything in his letters that were not inspired by the Holy Spirit......

He was “ Chosen of God” .....Jesus said that Paul was “ His Chosen Vessel” to speak for Him after His Ascension ....Jesus said to “ Follow Paul as he followed Christ.....Peter said that Anything That Paul wrote was the Equal to Scripture .....A man or church that ignores Paul will do so at his own risk...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Problem #10. - The Bible actually warns against those who believe this way.

No it does not. But if you insist, then where does it say that? It says Salvation is by faith and not of works.

You are incorrect. Yes, the Bible does.

The Condemnation of Perpetual Belief Alone-ism:

Matthew 3:9-10
“And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.”

John 8:39
“They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.”

John 8:47
“He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.”

The Condemnation of Christians Who Think They Can Sin and Still Be Saved:

Matthew 13:41-42
“The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”

Jesus will send forth his angels and they will gather out of HIS KINGDOM all who offend and them who do iniquity (sin) and they will be thrown into the furnace of fire (the Lake of Fire).

Jesus says, he that sins is a slave to sin (John 8:34).
A slave has no permanent place in the house (i.e. the house of Christ) forever.
Meaning, the Christian who is a slave to sin will not abide in the house of Christ forever and they will be cast out by Christ's angels.

 

[BloodBought 1953]

You are hung up on the word "Initially" and also on "type 2 works salvation." I seriously doubt there is anything that I or anyone else can say that will cause you to repent (change your mind) and place your faith in Jesus Christ ALONE (from start to finish) for salvation. (Ephesians 2:8; 1 Peter 1:9) You are just too fixated on 'back door works salvation.' Your must do something later in order to be saved by faith after being saved by faith alone beforehand argument is an oxymoron. God imputes righteousness APART FROM WORKS. (Romans 4:2-6)

Wow! TWO “ KEEPERS” in one night!! .....You guys are good....REAL good .....and I thank God for Both you and Charley! Your insight into the things of God, Plus your eloquence and clear thinking enables me to just sit back and enjoy .....Plus I am saving a “ Fortune” on valuable and xoensuve Computer Ink! Lol..... keep up the Good Fight of Contending for the True Gospel Of Grace!

 

[Rudometkin]

You are incorrect. Yes, the Bible does.

The Condemnation of Perpetual Belief Alone-ism:

Matthew 3:9-10
“And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.”

John 8:39
“They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.”

John 8:47
“He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.”

The Condemnation of Christians Who Think They Can Sin and Still Be Saved:

Matthew 13:41-42
“The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”

Jesus will send forth his angels and they will gather out of HIS KINGDOM all who offend and them who do iniquity (sin) and they will be thrown into the furnace of fire (the Lake of Fire).

Jesus says, he that sins is a slave to sin (John 8:34).
A slave has no permanent place in the house (i.e. the house of Christ) forever.
Meaning, the Christian who is a slave to sin will not abide in the house of Christ forever and they will be cast out by Christ's angels.

You post tons of Scripture, but it doesn't address the issues like you think it does. Maybe post a manageable amount at a time, and we can have some reasonable engagement.

I don't know about you, but if I sin, I have an advocate with the Father. Remember Jesus? The one whose works you keep rendering vain in your theology?

1 John 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

 

[Charlie24]

Oh no! Christ was not changing the Law, He was doubling down on it.

He was showing the depth of the Law in the spiritual side as well as the physical.

I know you're in another argument, but I want to say this.

Christ doubled down on the Law showing man how utterly impossible it was to keep it perfectly as required.

Paul, with his New Covenant knowledge given to him by Christ, tells us that the Law was to show us what sin is, and to point to Christ.

This is why Christ doubles down on Law. The only way now was to look at the sacrifice in the Sacrificial System of the Law to find the Messiah where their sins could be forgiven.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Problem #11. - It glorifies sin and darkness.

No it does not. It says Christ conquered sin and darkness, and it says sin and darkness have no power to take your Salvation away.

No. Perpetual Belief Alone Salvationism glorifies sin.
I have talked with enough Perpetual Belief Alone Proponents to know.
They always have a problem with obedience to God as a part of salvation.
In fact, they are for disobedience to God as a part of salvation.

John 3:20 says,
“For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.”

Luke 11:35 says,
“Be careful, then, that the light within you is not darkness.”

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You post tons of Scripture, but it doesn't address the issues like you think it does. Maybe post a manageable amount at a time, and we can have some reasonable engagement.

I don't know about you, but if I sin, I have an advocate with the Father. Remember Jesus? The one whose works you keep rendering vain in your theology?

1 John 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

You missed the part that says to, “sin not.” Jesus also told two people to “sin no more” (John 5:14) (John 8:11).
In fact, Jesus said that the Ninevites will rise up in judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah. If you were to turn to Jonah 3:6-10, you would learn that the Ninevites cried out to God and they forsaken their evil ways. When God seen that they turned from wickedness, that is when God turned back in bring wrath or judgment upon the Ninevites.

 

[Rudometkin]

No. Perpetual Belief Alone Salvationism glorifies sin.
I have talked with enough Perpetual Belief Alone Proponents to know.
They always have a problem with obedience to God as a part of salvation.
In fact, they are for disobedience to God as a part of salvation.

John 3:20 says,
“For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.”

Luke 11:35 says,
“Be careful, then, that the light within you is not darkness.”

With the way you preach, you must think you aren't doing evil.

A learned Christian is sensitive and knows just how much they sin in their lives, because they know God's Standard of judgement.

A works salvationist like yourself thinks they are capable of doing good enough to please God.

Learned Christians are constantly pressed to look at Christ because they are inherently incapable of pleasing God.

Works salvationists like yourself have all reason to keep focusing on yourself...all about you...yourself....selfism.

 

[Rudometkin]

You missed the part that says to, “sin not.” Jesus also told two people to “sin no more” (John 5:14) (John 8:11).
In fact, Jesus said that the Ninevites will rise up in judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah. If you were to turn to Jonah 3:6-10, you would learn that the Ninevites cried out to God and they forsaken their evil ways. When God seen that they turned from wickedness, that is when God turned back in bring wrath or judgment upon the Ninevites.

What? You missed the part where God determines sin. He determined Christ would be Crucified. Yet it is against His very law to murder.

We are commanded to not sin. I agree. That doesn't mean sinning puts us in hell after Jesus becomes our Substitute.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You didn't address the verses where God controls Satan to do the tempting. You just denied them.

Testing is different than tempting. God may permit the devil to tempt others, but God Himself is not actually tempting anyone. Also, man is ultimately drawn away and enticed away by his own lusts according to James. So God is not leading anyone to sin. That's just wrong to even say that. God is good. God is love. There is no darkness in God.

Try Proverbs 16:4 along with them.

God did not create evil beings as if that was their sole function. They chose to be wicked.
You sound like a High Calvinist or something.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Problem #12. - It ignores the true purpose of grace. For Titus 2:11-12 says God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world. Also, see Ephesians 5:25-27.

These Scriptures are not concerned with Salvation, so they cannot refute Perpetual Belief Alone Salvationism, which is concerned with Salvation.

Not true. These verses are dealing with salvation.

1 Peter 4:18-19
“And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.”

1 John 3:10
“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.”

 

[Bible Highlighter]

With the way you preach, you must think you aren't doing evil.

A learned Christian is sensitive and knows just how much they sin in their lives, because they know God's Standard of judgement.

A works salvationist like yourself thinks they are capable of doing good enough to please God.

Learned Christians are constantly pressed to look at Christ because they are inherently incapable of pleasing God.

Works salvationists like yourself have all reason to keep focusing on yourself...all about you...yourself....selfism.

Actually, the opposite is true. If a believer who holds to the Bible is true in that they have to obey God's instructions to enter the Kingdom, they are going to focus on picking up their cross, denying themselves, and they would focus on loving God, and loving others. If Perpetual Belief Alone Salvationism is true, then one can live however they like and they can sin and still be saved instead of loving God and loving others. So one is selfless and the other is selfish. Big difference between the two. You have to read your New Testament several times in prayer without Protestants talking in your ear to discover such a truth.

 

[Rudometkin]

God is not leading anyone to sin

You have a problem with some Scripture. 'Says God moved David.

2 Sam 24:1
And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Free will belief is by far the wide gate. Hyper Calvinism is much less common. Might as well suppose Hyper Calvinism is the way.

That looks like a problem for you.

2 Thessalonians 2:10.

BOOM.

No more Calvinism.

2 Thessalonians 2:10 says that those who perish are perishing because they received not the love of the truth that they MIGHT be saved. There is no might be saved in Calvinism. Also, it was not because the god of Calvinism did not elect them to salvation as to the cause to why they are perishing. It was because they received not the love of the truth. That's the reason.

 

[Rudometkin]

Actually, the opposite is true. If a believer who holds to the Bible is true in that they have to obey God's instructions to enter the Kingdom, they are going to focus on picking up their cross, denying themselves, and they would focus on loving God, and loving others. If Perpetual Belief Alone Salvationism is true, then one can live however they like and they can sin and still be saved instead of loving God and loving others. So one is selfless and the other is selfish. Big difference between the two. You have to read your New Testament several times in prayer without Protestants talking in your ear to discover such a truth.

If only I desired to spend the energy on picking apart every one of your sentences with critical precision.

Look what you say here... Just look.

"If what you say is true about salvation by faith alone...then people can sin all they want and be saved without loving God! Therefore, these people are selfish!"

How did you jump to that conclusion? They can...so they will? Sounds like you believe people don't have the ability to be...good... Hmm.

Who says these people want to sin? Are you projecting? Do you want to sin? Would you be sinning if you believed you could get away with it?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If only I desired to spend the energy on picking apart every one of your sentences with critical precision.

Look what you say here... Just look.

"If what you say is true about salvation by faith alone...then people can sin all they want and be saved without loving God! Therefore, these people are selfish!"

How did you jump to that conclusion? They can...so they will? Sounds like you believe people don't have the ability to be...good... Hmm.

Who says these people want to sin? Are you projecting? Do you want to sin? Would you be sinning if you believed you could get away with it?

I am not projecting anything. You act like this is a new discussion for me. It isn't. I have talked with Free Grace Christians since 2011. They all justify sin in some way based on what they have said. Not one of them believes in doing righteousness at all times as Psalms 106:3 teaches.

 

[mailmandan]

You are the only Christian I have ran into who uses the term Type 2 Works Salvation. So it’s most likely your own invented term of how you seek to distort the Bible, and make it look like your an authority (When you are not). God’s Word is the authority and not your invented terms.

Type 2 works salvation is a term that simply describes the belief that salvation is "maintained by works" which you obviously teach and is a distortion of the grace of God. (Romans 3:24; 5:1-2; 15-18; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..). It's you who tries to make yourself look like an authority on God's Word, but you are sadly mistaken.

When you read 2 Thessalonians 2:13: You don’t resort to Scripture but you resort to Theological terms by Theologians. I know. I read a little of Systematic Theology by Wayne Grudem and I heard Protestants say this garbage more times than I care to count. So the problem is that you are quoting them and you are not quoting solely the Bible. You are using their terms or words. You rely on their understanding and you are not relying on God and His Word for the understanding alone.

Say what? Do you believe that sanctification is an event, a process or both? I see positional sanctification in which we are "set apart/made holy" in standing before God "positionally in Christ. 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. 1 Corinthians 1:2 - To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus.. Yet I also see what is referred to as "progressive" sanctification in which the reality of that holiness becomes more and more evident in our actions, words, thoughts, attitudes, and motives.

1 Thessalonians 4:3-4, - For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain (present tense) from sexual immorality; that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor. So becoming washed, sanctified and justified in Christ is a one time event, yet abstaining from sexual immorality is not a one time event. Here is how I see it. The believer possess a positional, judicial standing of righteousness in Christ and, second, practical, progressive holiness in our actions, words, thoughts, attitudes, and motives. We will reach ultimate or final sanctification when we receive our glorified bodies.

For example: The term they describe like Justification is not entirely accurate. Justified can refer to both works and faith (James 2:24) (Romans 5:1).

You seem to give the word "justified" a broad brushed meaning of "accounted as righteous" which gets you into trouble when you get to James 2:24. As I already explained to you 100 times already, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 has more than one meaning:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

They also falsely say Justification is the removal of the penalty of sin and Sanctification does not involve the removal of the penalty of sin.

Those who are justified by faith have been saved from the PENALTY of sin. (Romans 5:1; Ephesians 2:8) Those who are justified have been sanctified - "set apart/made holy" before God positionally in Christ. (1 Corinthians 6:11) Not to be confused with progressive sanctification in which we are being saved from the POWER of sin. (1 Thessalonians 4:3-4)

Yet, we know that Hebrews 12:14 says that we are to follow after holiness without which no man shall see the Lord.

I already explained this to you multiple times. The NASB reads - Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. (Hebrews 12:14). Without justification, there is no sanctification. This is not talking about earning your salvation through your own personal holiness based on holy living/personal performance/works. You could never live a 'holy enough' life to earn your salvation. (Romans 3:23; 6:23)

We know that Romans 8:13 says that if you live after the flesh (sin), you will die, but if you put to death the misdeeds of the body (sin) by the Spirit, you will live. It’s like you cannot see verses like Romans 8:13 and or Hebrews 12:14.

It's you who surface reads these verses out of context and applies your personal eisegesis to the text. The end result is 'back door works salvation' every time!

Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him (Hebrews 5:9).

So who obeys Him? The saved or the lost? I've heard many works salvationists (including Roman Catholics, Mormons and Campbellites) use this verse to try and support salvation by works. Only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved, and only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by practicing righteousness and not sin. (1 John 3:9,10). In either sense, only believers obey Him. Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) and without faith its impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6), so unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much "so-called" obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to receive salvation based on their works. So in either sense, unbelievers do not obey Him

Acts of the Apostles 3:23 says that if any man does not hear that prophet (i.e. Jesus), he will be destroyed. So we have to obey Jesus and not just believe in Him if we want to be saved. But your Protestant brain washing will not allow you to believe many verses in the Bible.

Those who pervert the gospel do not hear Jesus and will be destroyed. (2 Corinthians 4:3,4; Galatians 1:6-9) Since none of us have flawlessly obeyed Jesus 100% of the time, where do you draw the line in the sand and say that you have sufficiently obeyed Him 'enough' so now He will be able to save you? Perverting the gospel by teaching works salvation is not obeying Him.

What did Jesus say in John 3:15,16,18; 6:40,47; 11:25,26? Where is the line drawn in the sand on who receives eternal life? John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Your protestant brain washing comment is a straw man argument which also demonstrates your arrogance. Who are you to judge protestant believers in general? You are not the authority here and you also need to come down off your high horse.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You are the only Christian I have ran into who uses the term Type 2 Works Salvation. So it’s most likely your own invented term of how you seek to distort the Bible, and make it look like your an authority (When you are not). God’s Word is the authority and not your invented terms.

When you read 2 Thessalonians 2:13: You don’t resort to Scripture but you resort to Theological terms by Theologians. I know. I read a little of Systematic Theology by Wayne Grudem and I heard Protestants say this garbage more times than I care to count. So the problem is that you are quoting them and you are not quoting solely the Bible. You are using their terms or words. You rely on their understanding and you are not relying on God and His Word for the understanding alone. For example: The term they describe like Justification is not entirely accurate. Justified can refer to both works and faith (James 2:24) (Romans 5:1). They also falsely say Justification is the removal of the penalty of sin and Sanctification does not involve the removal of the penalty of sin. Yet, we know that Hebrews 12:14 says that we are to follow after holiness without which no man shall see the Lord. We know that Romans 8:13 says that if you live after the flesh (sin), you will die, but if you put to death the misdeeds of the body (sin) by the Spirit, you will live. It’s like you cannot see verses like Romans 8:13 and or Hebrews 12:14. Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him (Hebrews 5:9). Acts of the Apostles 3:23 says that if any man does not hear that prophet (i.e. Jesus), he will be destroyed. So we have to obey Jesus and not just believe in Him if we want to be saved. But your Protestant brain washing will not allow you to believe many verses in the Bible.

what a joke.

Your fight is useless. You will not convice people who trust God to repent and return to trusting self again