The Problems of Perpetual Belief Alone Salvation-ism.

[Michiah-Imla]

Ive noticed that novice religious people, do not understand that the verse you quoted has a context.
Its this.. the UNRIGHTEOUSNESS.....
See that?

Why is the passage even there then genius?

Why would I warn a person that is walking about the speed limit if he is not driving a car?

 

[Michiah-Imla]

212

You, however, dont have a clue, as you are trying to pretend that you can by your lifestyle be as Holy as God

You are soo contradictory to scripture that I have to imagine that you have already been turned over to a reprobate mind:

“But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.” (1 Peter 1:15-16)

“That ye put off concerning the former lifestyle the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.” (Ephesians 4:22-24)

 

[mailmandan]

Why?

They didn’t reject Him.

They just got done showing acceptance of Him before being told, I never you you:

“…Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?” (Matthew 7:22)

Someone who rejects Him cannot do those works in his name (Acts of the Apostles 19:15).

A lot of those who walk according to the doctrine of Once Saved Always Saved are probably never know of Christ.

If Jesus never knew them, then they never knew Him as well. In context, the discussion focuses on false prophets. (Matthew 7:15-23) Jesus did not confirm the claims of these 'pseudo' Christians. There are false prophets who prophecy in the name of Jesus and even make false prophecies. Also, Satan may grant the power to one of his agents to cast out demons from another of his agents in order to gain attention and loyalty from an audience for his evil agenda. False prophets have demonstrated supernatural power granted by Satan.

I once knew a Mormon woman who claimed to cast a demon out of a teenage boy and said the demon started to attack her, but then in a very eerie voice said, "you are a child of God!" and then departed. She was very boastful about how that demon knew not to mess with her because she was a child of God! You can always trust a demon to tell you the truth, NOT! Demons can easily put on a show to make you think that you casted them out. This experience caused her to be even more convinced that she was secure in her false religion, which was obviously the plan of the demon.

In Matthew 10:1, we see that Jesus gave His 12 disciples power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. This would include Judas Iscariot, yet Jesus referred to Judas Iscariot as an unclean, devil who would betray Him! (John 6:71; 13:10-11). Apparently, Judas believed that Jesus' name has the power to cast out demons, but did not truly believe in His name (John 1:12) and become a child of God, but instead was the son of perdition. (John 17:12)

John 17:3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. The term "know" implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him, not merely theoretical knowledge. These many people in Matthew 7:22 were not true converts.

 

[WalkInLight]

Who’s obsessing?

We are merely bringing forth biblical evidence against your error.

Was Jesus also obsessing about these things, or any of the Apostles when telling us to be righteous?



I trust in Christ and respect Him enough to not tread on him!

Jesus called us to be like Him.

Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.
Matt 5:6

If one thinks this is like an exam to pass, using all we are as people to aspire to the point is missed.
A musician grows a new part of the brain to handle the nuances of music. They become something different physically, not just in terms of a skill.

In Christ, in learning to follow we are changed, by letting the Holy Spirit mold and form us into Christ's likeness things change in our lives, not by our knowledge or choice, but by Gods will. The phrase to pull oneself up by your boot straps is clearly impossible, but to put in place the promise of Gods transformation by following is salvation.

We are emotional beings with an intellect that tries to make sense of it all. We hate our fragility so cut off as much as we can that will sway or affect us, so we almost become immune to any stimulation. Just look at the violence and brutal shows we now have on media, films, TV etc. to know we are hard to shift. That is our lostness, the hard shell that can never be got through. Unless Jesus has got through this shell, no one is saved, no matter what they say they believe.

The apostles pointed out the fruit of this was "I love God, but bless you brother even though you are starving"
Fools do not know what they meant, because their heart is so hard they are unaware there is any other way of being.

God bless you

 

[Behold]

Another one here seeing a red mirage in the text:

“…depart from me, ye that work iniquity Christ rejectors.” (Matthew 7:23)

You have sinned, and you have confessed it.
Perhaps you confessed it to your priest, this week.?
So, for you to post that "working inquity", finds both believers and unbelivers in the same lake of fire, as if there is no difference between a Son of God and a Son of the Devil, shows that you have very little knowledge of The Grace of God, if any at all.
So, You need to start thinkig about what you are saying, as, im not the only one who hears you.

Now let me tell you again.
There are no Born again believers in Hell, or ever found in the Lake of Fire.
And there are no Christ rejectors, never born again, ever found in Heaven.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Who’s obsessing?

We are merely bringing forth biblical evidence against your error.

Was Jesus also obsessing about these things, or any of the Apostles when telling us to be righteous?



I trust in Christ and respect Him enough to not tread on him!

yet you tread on him by refusing to acknowledge his standard. and thinking you actually meet it.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Why?

They didn’t reject Him.

They just got done showing acceptance of Him before being told, I never you you:

“…Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?” (Matthew 7:22)

Someone who rejects Him cannot do those works in his name (Acts of the Apostles 19:15).

A lot of those who walk according to the doctrine of Once Saved Always Saved are probably never known of Christ.

actually. what they showed is they tried to get to him by their works. They assumed they knew him and he knew them. Jesus let them know. HE NEVER KNEW THEM

Now are you going to say Jesus lied and HE DID KNOW THEM at one time

 

[Michiah-Imla]

In context, the discussion focuses on false prophets.

No sir.

Jesus is speaking of many individual things together. One does not contextually relate with nor cancel out the other. It’s a range of teachings.

Again, are you seeing a red mirage in the text again:

“And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity false prophets.” (Matthew 7:23)

Man, you guys will do anything to contextualize sin out of the picture!

 

[WalkInLight]

If Jesus never knew them, then they never knew Him as well. In context, the discussion focuses on false prophets. (Matthew 7:15-23) Jesus did not confirm the claims of these 'pseudo' Christians. There are false prophets who prophecy in the name of Jesus and even make false prophecies. Also, Satan may grant the power to one of his agents to cast out demons from another of his agents in order to gain attention and loyalty from an audience for his evil agenda. False prophets have demonstrated supernatural power granted by Satan.

I once knew a Mormon woman who claimed to cast a demon out of a teenage boy and said the demon started to attack her, but then in a very eerie voice said, "you are a child of God!" and then departed. She was very boastful about how that demon knew not to mess with her because she was a child of God! You can always trust a demon to tell you the truth, NOT! Demons can easily put on a show to make you think that you casted them out. This experience caused her to be even more convinced that she was secure in her false religion, which was obviously the plan of the demon.

In Matthew 10:1, we see that Jesus gave His 12 disciples power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. This would include Judas Iscariot, yet Jesus referred to Judas Iscariot as an unclean, devil who would betray Him! (John 6:71; 13:10-11). Apparently, Judas believed that Jesus' name has the power to cast out demons, but did not truly believe in His name (John 1:12) and become a child of God, but instead was the son of perdition. (John 17:12)

John 17:3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. The term "know" implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him, not merely theoretical knowledge. These many people in Matthew 7:22 were not true converts.

What did Jesus say is the sign of a fellowship of believers?

35 "By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."
John 13:35

This is about transformed lives enabling a community to know and love one another through Christs work in their lives.
It is not a belief system test, or how many times they managed to show faith or pass a certain belief exam.

It is the reality of transformed life because of walking with Him.
Jesus also implies the elect will never fall, there is an eternal reality to their faith and reality.

The eternal walk is a reality we just need to encourage each other to follow.
None of us can say of another they are not .... but rather just encourage to follow.
I fear for those who desire to use beliefs as the most foundational experience in their life rather than Jesus life encounters as He teaches each one lessons they need to hear and follow.

God bless you

 

[Michiah-Imla]

actually. what they showed is they tried to get to him by their works.

So you and your fellow Once Saved Always Saved traveler gave two different explanations on this text.

Get your stories organized at the very least…

 

[Michiah-Imla]

yet you tread on him by refusing to acknowledge his standard. and thinking you actually meet it.

Jesus’ standard:

“go, and sin no more.” (John 8:11)

All born again Christians begin with no sin (1 John 1:9).

But you have the free will to return to your vomit (2 Peter 2:22) again and tread on your Savior (Hebrews 10:29) and mock God if you choose (Galatians 6:7).

 

[WalkInLight]

actually. what they showed is they tried to get to him by their works. They assumed they knew him and he knew them. Jesus let them know. HE NEVER KNEW THEM

Now are you going to say Jesus lied and HE DID KNOW THEM at one time

"I see you" is a phrase used in the film Avatar, about seeing the individual within.

Jesus says many things that are emotional reality not factual reality.
To know someone factually you have had an exchange of information, an encounter.
To know someone emotionally is to have an emotional interplay of reactions and a communion at a deeper level.

The phrase
14 For many are invited, but few are chosen
Matt 22:14

I have heard this statement said many times, "I want God to speak to me"
They have the bible, but if the words are audibly spoken, suddenly it will take new meaning.

Or prophets who say "God loves you and wants to encourage you" is more authoritative than scripture though the words are the same.

Jesus said simply if people will not listen to scripture they will not listen to someone who rises from the dead.
The other way round to this, is people contradict scripture and love, they will contradict everything else.

So to say to believe Jesus and not follow Him is a mark of a believer is pure nonsense and only the spiritually blind would suggest such a thing.

God bless you

 

[mailmandan]

No sir.

Jesus is speaking of many individual things together. One does not contextually relate with nor cancel out the other. It’s a range of teachings.

Again, are you seeing a red mirage in the text again:

“And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity false prophets.” (Matthew 7:23)

Man, you guys will do anything to contextualize sin out of the picture!

I see that you choose to ignore the context (Matthew 7:15-23) because it doesn't fit your narrative.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

You have sinned, and you have confessed it.

Yes, when I first got saved.

Perhaps you confessed it to your priest, this week.?

I’m not a Catholic and I don’t serve the lusts of my flesh to give life to sin.

for you to post that "working inquity", finds both believers and unbelivers in the same lake of fire, as if there is no difference between a Son of God and a Son of the Devil, shows that you have very little knowledge of The Grace of God, if any at all.

Here how you know the difference:

“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin… In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil” (1 John 3:9-10)

Now ignoring the fleshly desires is difficult at times, but suffer through it!

“Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin” (1 Peter 4:1)

There are no Born again believers in Hell

There sure will be some cursed children who defiled their second chance that forsook the right way!

“Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray” (2 Peter 2:14-15)

You need to start thinkig about what you are saying, as, im not the only one who hears you.

Are you threatening me?

You have silenced the Bible with craftiness and you would probably love to see me silenced since I can address every one of your false doctrines’ pillars with the word of God.

 

[Behold]

Jesus’ standard:

“go, and sin no more.” (John 8:11)

Jesus's standard is Himself.
This is God, in the Flesh, on the Cross.
What's He doing there?
He's providing HIS righteousness, as "the Gift of Righteousness".
You dont do that.....as you are not qualified to even pretend that you can present your own often carnal lifestyle as some type of thin transparent foolish self righteous attempt to tell God..>"see, im being holy".
And the fact is, you are never holy, of yourself. You are never good, of yourself, in God's eyes, because HE is the standard you are up against with all this pretense you are soaked in, as your idea of Chritianity.
Get this in your head, .... We are not capable of ever being even remotely "holy", as comared to God and Christ.
And for us to belong to God, and go to heaven, we have to be MADE EQUAL to God's Holiness.....by God Himself.
You think you can do this, Michiah Imia, by trying to "be good and act holy", but you are unable to qualify, as you have already sinned.

And so, God came here, to restore your holiness that you can't produce, so that by this restoration that JESUS SUPPLIED, God is able to accept you.

This is : SALVATION

This is : The CROSS of CHRIST and the BLOOD ATONEMENT

 

[mailmandan]

yet you tread on him by refusing to acknowledge his standard. and thinking you actually meet it.

He has not met God's perfect, holy standard (Ecclesiastes 7:20; Romans 3:23; 1 John 1:8-10) and neither has anyone else except for Jesus Christ. (Hebrews 4:15)

 

[Michiah-Imla]

I see that you choose to ignore the context (Matthew 7:15-23) because it doesn't fit your narrative.

“Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.” (Matthew 7:15-20)

Now Christ moves from ONE particular group (false prophets) to a general group (of every kind, not just false prophets):

“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.” (Matthew 7:21-27)

What else do you got in your Once Saved Always Saved bag of tricks @mailmandan ?

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Get this in your head, .... We are not capable of ever being even remotely "holy"

Get this in your HEART:

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world” (Titus 2:11-12)

 

[WalkInLight]

I see that you choose to ignore the context (Matthew 7:15-23) because it doesn't fit your narrative.

Hi Mailmandan,

Being fair to you, if someone believes in a different context to yourself, they are not ignoring "the context" but have a different context to yourself.

The danger of these interactions is the echo chamber of either position when both have issues with them.
Jesus says the elect are always saved, from an eternal perspective.

Some say the lost are eternally lost, so they had no choice.
Judas was lost, prophesied as the one cursed, but he still chose this role.

How our language uses and describes these views can cause confusion.
To me its obvious, if you love Jesus you love His commandments. I know emotionally I have a hard time with myself because the sense of its impossible seems very real, except that is just emotional stubborness and rebellion rather than reality.

Over time when I begin to see more of the perspectives involved, I see how selfish and self involved I am, and how absurd my reactions are when it is just moments of the day, or relationships which in Christ I have a different perspective on.

Unless we put Jesus as the highest, yes defeat and compromise are our testimony, but if we exercise faith and overcoming, we rise above and walk with Him.

God bless you

 

[WalkInLight]

He has not met God's perfect, holy standard (Ecclesiastes 7:20; Romans 3:23; 1 John 1:8-10) and neither has anyone else except for Jesus Christ. (Hebrews 4:15)

You made me think. Jesus was sinless because He was God. He gave up the attributes of God, to prove His nature overcomes sin not His status. His promise and offer of hope to us, is His way if we follow will lead to us also overcoming as He did.

If there is no overcoming, how can we be perfect in heaven? If you make a religion of transformation to perfection, why repent or even acknowledge the fruit of the Spirit, the holiness of the walk of the people of God, the light on a hill driven by love?

It is this transformation and its power that is the salt in our saltiness. Without this repentance and change we deserve to be trampled under foot. The putting Jesus's words into action is building a house upon a rock that survives the storms of life.
The reason Jesus said this, is without the building one has just a sand castles that disappears at the first storm.

I know too many people who have had their lives washed away, to know this is 100% the truth.

God bless you