22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[Spiritual Israelite]

the passage itself speaks of 2 distinct ressurections

I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

they were killed and now live and reign thats a ressurection

5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished.

here is the second. I do not have to go to the rest of scripture. it is there in black and white. The only reason you would have to go elswhere is because your belief does not fit what is said.

So, in verse 4 where it says "they lived and reigned with Christ..." that is translated from the Greek word "zao" (Strong's G2198). In verse 5 the Greek word translated as "live...again" is anazao (Strong's G326). The word "zao" is not a word used to describe a resurrection, but rather is used describe people being alive and living. The word anazao is used to describe someone being revived or being resurrected. So, please tell me why the word "anazao" is not used in verse 4 if it's talking about the souls John saw being bodily resurrected.

Another thing to point out is that scripture refers to Christ's resurrection itself in verses like Acts 26:23, 1 Cor 15:20;22, Col 1:18 and Rev 1:5. So, to have part in the first resurrection is to have part in Christ's resurrection. You don't need to be bodily resurrected in order to have part in Christ's resurrection. Revelation 20 is talking about John seeing the souls of physically dead believers who had spiritually had part in Christ's resurrection living and reigning with Christ in heaven.

The Greek words translated as "first resurrection" in Revelation 20 are "protos anastasis". Here is the only other verse where that phrase is used in scripture:

Acts 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise (protos anastasis) from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

In 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 Paul gives the order of bodily resurrections unto bodily immortality and he indicates that Christ's resurrection was the first. So, the resurrection of the dead in Christ that will occur at His second coming is not the first resurrection, but rather is the second.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

· Firstly, the binding of Satan is spiritual. Satan is not human and physical. He is a spirit. A spirit cannot be held by physical restraints. What is more, he is not in a physical prison or is he restrained by metal chains.
· Secondly, the binding does not suggest our enemy must be motionless or does it describe inactivity. Prisoners have movement in a prison albeit in a limited capacity, under strict rules and within controlled confines.
· Thirdly, Revelation 20 does not suggest that the devil is unable to inflict harm on anyone while bound. Everyone knows that a prisoner can perpetrate all types of crimes within the prison precincts.

1. We don't know what kind of binding happens to Satan. It could be supernatural chains for all we know!
2. He will be abyssed and bound by something for 1,000 years- that is what god said, Why should I believe you over the bible.
3. I agree it doesn't mean He can't make some movements. what kind and how many- god decided was none of our business.
4. Satan will not be able to decieve people on earth! what He does in teh abyss- it doesn't say and anyone who thinks they know is just guessing.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I know I’ve missed a ton of posts. It got too confusing trying to answer everyone and everything at once. But I do know, SI, that you didn’t answer some of my questions either in the mess, most notably this one:

Please see my post #661. I'm trying to get caught up from yesterday.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

And . . . when everything is "allegory" or "symbol", where is the common interpretation? Each comes to their own. I've heard maybe half a dozen interpretations of who the 144,000 are if not that many Jewish men. I've even had a few answer me of which "spiritual tribe" are they. A few different ideas of what the "seal of the living God" may actually be, whether it's on the forehead, or in the mind.

Very quickly these add up.

Let's say 3 interpretations of each. With 4 conditions, that comes out to 81 different possible points of view. That's just from a couple of verses.

However, if you take it to mean exactly what it says, 144,000 Jewish men who have not had sex, then we can all understand what that means, and we have one common POW, in otherwords, Unity of knowledge, as in Ephesians 4.

If there is unity in doctrine to be had among us, this is how we get there.

Much love!

The ot spoke of be born of a virgin - that literally came true

The ot said they will divide his garments. - that literally came true

The ot said that after 69 weeks of years. messiah will be killed - that literally happened

the ot said there will be 4 gentile kingdoms. Called them parts of a statue or a beast (symbols) but the 4 kingdoms came literally as promised.

they used the prophecies concerning jesus to prove he was jesus, because he literally fulfilled them

If you make an alegory or spiritualise prophesy. we could not use them to prove anything, more importantly. God can not use it..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You have avoided post after post, argument after argument and Scripture after Scripture.

I have not avoided anything

You on the other hand have avoided looking at the actual passahe of scriptire we are supposed to be discussing

Obviously you have nothing of evidential worth to bring to the table. If you had, you doubtless would. BTW, I am not Catholic, but solidly Reformed. What I am relaying to you was the standard truth of the Reformation, the Puritans and the Covenanters. Your failure to support your eschatological theories with hard Scripture is damning to your doctrine. When you resort to insults and name-calling you have quickly lost the debate. Sadly, this is the typical Premil way of engagement online!

• The binding of Satan is spiritual. Satan is not human and physical. He is a spirit. A spirit cannot be held by physical restraints. What is more, he is not in a physical prison or is he restrained by metal chains.
• The binding does not suggest our enemy must be motionless or does it describe inactivity. Prisoners have movement in a prison albeit in a limited capacity, under strict rules and within controlled confines.
• Revelation 20 does not suggest that the devil is unable to inflict harm on anyone while bound. Everyone knows that a prisoner can perpetrate all types of crimes within the prison precincts.

actually you have nothing of value. You can;t look at the passage and prove your point. You have to go everywhere else in an attempt to prove your right.

If you were right. you could EASILY prove it in the passage. the fact you refuse to look at the passage in question is more than enough proof to show me you do not understand the passage at all. and are afraid to look it it

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Your claims are "false" in a direct personal attack, in non-response to the scriptural facts below

The River Of Life Will Flow After The Return Of Jesus, But It Will Be In "The Eternal Kingdom" And Not A Millennial Kingdom On This Earth As You Believe And Teach

When Jesus Christ Returns, In The "Twinkling Of An Eye" Eternal Immortality Begins

"The Eternal Kingdom" The River Of Life Flowing From New Jerusalem

Zechariah 14:8KJV
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

Revelation 22:1KJV
1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Ezekiel 47:1-12KJV
1 Afterward he brought me again unto the door of the house; and, behold, waters issued out from under the threshold of the house eastward: for the forefront of the house stood toward the east, and the waters came down from under from the right side of the house, at the south side of the altar.
2 Then brought he me out of the way of the gate northward, and led me about the way without unto the utter gate by the way that looketh eastward; and, behold, there ran out waters on the right side.
3 And when the man that had the line in his hand went forth eastward, he measured a thousand cubits, and he brought me through the waters; the waters were to the ankles.
4 Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through the waters; the waters were to the knees. Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through; the waters were to the loins.
5 Afterward he measured a thousand; and it was a river that I could not pass over: for the waters were risen, waters to swim in, a river that could not be passed over.
6 And he said unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen this? Then he brought me, and caused me to return to the brink of the river.
7 Now when I had returned, behold, at the bank of the river were very many trees on the one side and on the other.
8 Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.
9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.
10 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from Engedi even unto Eneglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.
11 But the miry places thereof and the marishes thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt.
12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.

so. no mention of sin. or the possibility..



Good day sir. You have nothing for me

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Please see my post #661. I'm trying to get caught up from yesterday.

take your time bro. don't sweat it.

 

[Truth7t7]

The bible tells me when Jesus reigns, He reigns with a rod of iron.

2. The bible in Rev. 20 makes it very plain there is a 1,000 year gap between resurrections!

3. No when Jesus physically touches down, they will be killed but not go to the lake of fire. They go to the place of torments awaiting the Great white throne judgment. but there is the question of the billions who have already died before Jesus returns. The saved will already be resurrected. The lost will have to wait 1,000 years.

4. the bible always defines its symbols. The beast is defined in Daniel.

5. It doesn't matter if the 1,000 years is in revelation or not. That is what many use as an excuse to redfine this number to mean something else. That is not exegesis, but eisegesis and reinterpreting. there is no necessity or reason to reinterpret teh 1,000 years. Even in Revelation there are many many literal things! Like the churches, seals, bowls and trumpets and their judgments.

You suggest that Jesus is going to sit upon a earthly throne ruling with a scepter of iron?

Scripture teaches Jesus returns and "Destroys" with a rod of Iron, as a Potter destroys his vessels

Revelation 2:27KJV
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Revelation 19:15KJV
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Prove it.

1. What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that there are two distinct physical resurrection days (the first for the righteous, the second for the wicked) separated by a literal 1000 years+?
2. Where in Scripture does it mention "resurrection days" (plural), pertaining to the end?
3. What Scripture (including Revelation 20) do you consider definitely teaches there are two distinct future judgement days (that will see all mankind stand before Christ to give account for their lives) separated by a literal 1000 years+?
4. Where in Scripture does it mention "judgement days" (plural), in regard to the end?
5. What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that Satan will be bound for a time-span of 1000 years after the Second Advent, then released for a "little season" to deceive the nations, and then destroy them?

1. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

2. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

3. I never said or implied there are two great white throne judgments. Christians are judged after the rapture. We are all saved this is the bema of 2 cor.
Survivors
of the trtib are judged and granted entrance into teh kingdom or cast into the place of torments awaiting the great white throne judgment.

4. I never said there are judgment days at teh end- thatr is you reading into my words.

5. As Rev. 20 is the only mention of Satan being abyssed there is no corroborating verses. there is no need. Show me a verse that requires that every time 1,000 years appears in SCripture we must assume it is allegorical and must be reinterpreted.

 

[marks]

So, in verse 4 where it says "they lived and reigned with Christ..." that is translated from the Greek word "zao" (Strong's G2198). In verse 5 the Greek word translated as "live...again" is anazao (Strong's G326). The word "zao" is not a word used to describe a resurrection, but rather is used describe people being alive and living. The word anazao is used to describe someone being revived or being resurrected. So, please tell me why the word "anazao" is not used in verse 4 if it's talking about the souls John saw being bodily resurrected.

That's simply the statement being made in each case.

They were beheaded, and they lived and reigned with Christ for the thousand years. The rest of the dead did not live again until the 1000 years are finished.

Are you asking why the Bible doesn't say something other than what it does?

These lived with Christ, and those didn't come back to life until later. The statement I'm guessing you'd prefer to see would be like, these came back to live at this time, and those came back to life at that time.

I'm thinking that the emphasis on the way its written is not the fact of their resurrection, though they are resurrected, but that they are living and reigning with Christ. That is the fact that is being highlighted.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Can someone show me where the Bible tells us that Satan is a spirit? I can't think of where that is at the moment.

Much love!

 

[marks]

The ot spoke of be born of a virgin - that literally came true

The ot said they will divide his garments. - that literally came true

The ot said that after 69 weeks of years. messiah will be killed - that literally happened

the ot said there will be 4 gentile kingdoms. Called them parts of a statue or a beast (symbols) but the 4 kingdoms came literally as promised.

they used the prophecies concerning jesus to prove he was jesus, because he literally fulfilled them

If you make an alegory or spiritualise prophesy. we could not use them to prove anything, more importantly. God can not use it..

I agree. And I like to ask people, "what IF, what if God were wanting to tell us that Jesus would return to earth, would establish His kingdom in Jerusalem, and would rule the earth for 1000 years as Satan is bound in the abyss", all of it exactly like that, what would He say to communicate that?

When God wanted to tell us that Jesus would rise from the dead after 3 day/night cycles, He said, "three days and three nights".

No one seems to want to answer that question.

God told Noah, "In 7 days I'm going to bring rain for 40 days and 40 nights". 7 and 40 are both considered significant numbers in the Bible, but does that mean we shouldn't believe God means ordinals when He says them?

If you look at prophecy that way, people can't use it either.

"Sons, gather round! In the completion of days, God will bring His rain, and it will rain for the judgment of the earth!" "So Dad, how long have we got til it starts?" "In the completion, like I said." "How much food do we need to pack? How long will it rain?" "For the judgment, that's how long."

Is that any way to interpret prophecy? In 7 days its going to rain, and that rain is going to last 40 days and nights.

Much love!

 

[WPM]

1. Christ is not reigning now over the earth! If He is, He really sucks at running a kingdom. Things are worse now than 100 years ago and going downhill fast! But I would like to see the verses that say Jesus is reigning now. I know He is preparing a place for the church and ever lives to make intercession. The bible tells me when Jesus reigns, He reigns with a rod of iron.

I totally disagree. You reinforce another point in the Op. I do not buy into the doom-and-gloom big-devil and small-impotent-Jesus theology of Premillennialism. I certainly do not agree with you that Jesus "sucks at running a kingdom." One of the problems I see today is: too many Christians are focused on the enemy and the darkness in our nation rather than the light and the power of God. Because of this they have a small god and a big devil. The fruit of this in their Christian walk is that they are defeated, discouraged and depressed and impotent for the Lord.

The topic of conversation is: “have you heard what was on the news today?” rather than “do you know what I read in the Word of God today?” Many are more interested in antichrist than they are in Christ. They are more interested in conspiracy theories that they are in the facts of God’s Word. They fail to see: God has not called us to curse the darkness, He has called us to switch on a light.

Another major problem is: Christians do not know their Bibles. They have a total ignorance of the person, power and authority of Jesus Christ and therefore go through this life powerless. Others are the same because they have sat in the past under false teachers who teach a small god and a big devil.

You start to talk about the majesty and power of Jesus Christ today and how He is seated on the right hand of Majesty on high and many immediately respond: “But, the devil wall about as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour.” They will then list off all the evils in this world. They will talk about the rise of liberalism and regressivism. They list all the evils that man is perpetrating. They will try and convince you that it is all doom and gloom. But they will not talk about the kingship of Christ, His sovereign power, and His control over all nations.

By all means recognize the dark day that we are living in, but do not dwell on the darkness.

• Know the truth.
• Press in on the light.
• Utilize the power.
• Walk in on the victory.

Do we really grasp the power that Jesus Christ has over all creation since the resurrection? Do we realize the enormity of His authority and influence? Or do we believe that man or Satan is out of control and that Jesus is just sitting by helplessly watching on? Unfortunately, many Christians today have a misconception of that because of false teaching in regard to end-times. They imagine that the kingdom of God is only a future reality when Jesus comes. Many even say that Jesus is not king now but He will be when He returns at the second coming. They call Him a prince-in-waiting.

They make the exact same mistake that the Pharisees made 2000 years ago with their misguided obsession with (1) racial favoritism, (2) earthly real estate and (3) the idea of a dictatorial Messiah reigning over the Gentile nations with a rod of iron. Because of their flawed perception of the kingdom, the Pharisees ended up rejecting Christ.

What many do is, strip Jesus of His sovereign power today (by their faulty theology). They dethrone Him from the right hand of majesty on high. This is convenient for some, because they then have man calling the shots and God reacting to man. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Jesus testified after His resurrection: “All power [or authority] is given unto me in heaven and in earth” (Matthew 28:18).

Jesus rules and reigns today over all creation. There is nothing that is not under His feet. What He says goes! This is biblical bedrock! This is a foundational Christian truth.

I mean, how much more power than “all power ... in heaven and in earth” does He need to exercise power and authority over His enemies?

Romans 9:5 confirms, in an often-overlooked passage: “as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all.”

This proves that Christ has already come and now exercises kingship today over all mankind. It means: He carries the Father’s divine authority. He is currently enthroned. This is Sovereign power! He holds this today upon His Father’s throne as God and upon David’s throne as Messiah. Him and the Father are one spiritually in authority.

Revelation 3:7 tells us: “And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key (or authority) of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth.”

He holds all power (without qualification). After all, He is God! God either causes or permits - as He is God and He is sovereign. Simple! That is an explicit biblical truth and a Christian fundamental. The powerful language that accompanies the mention of Christ holding the key of David proves that this is referring to His majestic power and might.

It is all fine-and-dandy you recognizing this intellectually in your mind, but you need to know this experientially in your heart.

This is basically telling us that God is in complete control of our life. He will open the doors as He sees fit and close doors that He doesn’t want us going through.

Believers, as they walk this Christian path, should see supernatural events and opportunities occurring around them that they could never have orchestrated or manipulated themselves. This is where you can tangibly identify the hand of God at work in your life.

When Jesus stood before Pilate during His trial, Pilate lectured Jesus,

John 19:10-11: “knowest thou not that I have power [or authority] to crucify thee, and have power to release thee? Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power [or authority] at all against me, except it were given thee from above.”

It is the same for us: people can only do to us what God allows.

Basically, there is nothing that is not under God’s control or influence.

If He was in Washington DC today He would tell the politicians the same thing. They are never going to silence His voice. They are never going to overthrow Him. The gates of hell will never prevail against His Church.

When Christians talk about Satan, they often get awkward, uneasy and sometimes even fearful and superstitious. It is as if Satan has a place of power in their minds that allows him do whatever he wants, whenever he wants.

If you say that Satan is stupid, or he is a loser, they get freaked out. Well, brother and sister, the Bible shows the devil to be both. We are just relaying the truth!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You mean go off topic to avoid the pre-mill issue? The plot thickens.

No, that is not what I meant at all. Why don't you try adding something of substance to the thread instead of useless comments like this?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

why would we not take prophecy literally?

Because it's obviously not all literal. Why else?

would that not reduce the purpose of prophecy and make it meaningless?

Clearly, there is symbolism in Bible prophecy, especially in books like Isaiah, Zechariah, Daniel and Revelation. Is the symbolism found there meaningless? Of course not, right? So, I don't get your point here. Just because something is described symbolically doesn't make what is being represented symbolically in reality any less true than things that are described literally.

 

[marks]

I totally disagree. You reinforce another point in the Op. I do not buy into the doom-and-gloom big-devil and small-impotent-Jesus theology of Premillennialism. I certainly do not agree with you that Jesus "sucks at running a kingdom." One of the problems I see today is: too many Christians are focused on the enemy and the darkness in our nation rather than the light and the power of God. Because of this they have a small god and a big devil. The fruit of this in their Christian walk is that they are defeated, discouraged and depressed and impotent for the Lord.

Isn't this idea of Satan still running around on his chain like having one over on God? The angel chains Satan, but it doesn't really stop him.

You seem to think God's binding is ineffective, that Satan is too wispy to put on a real chain, he's more like a mob boss in Rikers.

Maybe realize that when God puts Satan away for a time, he's out of the picture.

You paint a picture of Jesus ruling over this earth as the nations are at war, and the sinners persecute the saints. When Jesus rules, it's with an iron fist, and no one is going to get away with that stuff.

No, Jesus will not be ineffective in His rule, as ineffective as He'd have to be were He on His throne in Jerusalem now. As the world thumbs it's collective nose at Him!

You diminish the power of the King of Kings, and magnify the power of the created one. So what you say of others, is what you yourself do.

Much love!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I totally disagree. You reinforce another point in the Op. I do not buy into the doom-and-gloom big-devil and small-impotent-Jesus theology of Premillennialism. I certainly do not agree with you that Jesus "sucks at running a kingdom." One of the problems I see today is: too many Christians are focused on the enemy and the darkness in our nation rather than the light and the power of God. Because of this they have a small god and a big devil. The fruit of this in their Christian walk is that they are defeated, discouraged and depressed and impotent for the Lord.

Show me all the verses that says Jesus is reigning on earth now like the JW's teach.

Gods Word teaches He will rule with a rod of Iron. There are no caveats in Scripture to make that null and void.

The topic of conversation is: “have you heard what was on the news today?” rather than “do you know what I read in the Word of God today?” Many are more interested in antichrist than they are in Christ. They are more interested in conspiracy theories that they are in the facts of God’s Word. They fail to see: God has not called us to curse the darkness, He has called us to switch on a light.

well I haven't taken a survery of believers, so I cannot confirm or deny your allegation here.

Another major problem is: Christians do not know their Bibles. They have a total ignorance of the person, power and authority of Jesus Christ and therefore go through this life powerless. Others are the same because they have sat in the past under false teachers who teach a small god and a big devil.

Well having been saved for almost 49 years, graduated bible college, taight in bible Institutes and churches and radio, and spending time every day in is Word, without bragging too much I hope, I think I have some kind of clue as to what the Word of God teaches.

But what does this have to do with the 1,000 years in God's word??

Do we really grasp the power that Jesus Christ has over all creation since the resurrection? Do we realize the enormity of His authority and influence? Or do we believe that man or Satan is out of control and that Jesus is just sitting by helplessly watching on? Unfortunately, many Christians today have a misconception of that because of false teaching in regard to end-times. They imagine that the kingdom of God is only a future reality when Jesus comes. Many even say that Jesus is not king now but He will be when He returns at the second coming. They call Him a prince-in-waiting.

None of us can fully grasp teh enormity of Jesus and the Father and Spirit!

We live in this world and we were exhorted to be on guard and put on the armour of God. Satan still prowls and still takes Christians and makes them prisdoners of war. we do not have to be afraid of HIm, Just be on guard for His schemes. God gives us and the demons volitional freeedom within certain bounds.

this is a wonderful sermonette, but what does it have to do with topic at hand. Jesus is king- but He has not begun His reign yet. It begfins when He returns! It ends after He vanquishes death and then turns the Kingdom back to His father as Paul wrote in 1` Cor. 15

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Because it's obviously not all literal. Why else?

Clearly, there is symbolism in Bible prophecy, especially in books like Isaiah, Zechariah, Daniel and Revelation. Is the symbolism found there meaningless? Of course not, right? So, I don't get your point here. Just because something is described symbolically doesn't make what is being represented symbolically in reality any less true than things that are described literally.

Yes there is symbolism, but God defines the symbols in His Word. We havew no need for special revelations, warm fuzzies, visions, dreams or suppossed teachers who got on the hot line with god.

But in all prophecies there is also lots of literalism

Following the golden rule of Bible understanding has never led me down a wrong path.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The ot spoke of be born of a virgin - that literally came true

The ot said they will divide his garments. - that literally came true

The ot said that after 69 weeks of years. messiah will be killed - that literally happened

the ot said there will be 4 gentile kingdoms. Called them parts of a statue or a beast (symbols) but the 4 kingdoms came literally as promised.

they used the prophecies concerning jesus to prove he was jesus, because he literally fulfilled them

If you make an alegory or spiritualise prophesy. we could not use them to prove anything, more importantly. God can not use it..

But, this isn't a matter of one side (Premils) saying things prophesied will happen with the other side (Amils) saying they won't happen. No. This is a matter of the two sides, Amils and Premils, disagreeing on what is figurative/symbolic and what is literal. The figurative/symbolic text describes things that will actually happen, but they just aren't described in a literal way.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Because it's obviously not all literal. Why else?

Then it is meaningless. and we can make it say anything we want. with no means ot proving who is right.

And I disagree, it is all literal. It may use symbols to represent literal events. but we need to determine what literal event will take place.

Clearly, there is symbolism in Bible prophecy, especially in books like Isaiah, Zechariah, Daniel and Revelation. Is the symbolism found there meaningless? Of course not, right? So, I don't get your point here. Just because something is described symbolically doesn't make what is being represented symbolically in reality any less true than things that are described literally.

how much symbolism in daniels prophecy literally came true? Daniel spoke of the head of Gold then told the king he was that head.