22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[Timtofly]

It doesn't say that it was on the world its a great tribulation which was the tribulation of the siege on Jerusalem. In all 1.2 million perished and only 97000 survived. If it went on longer all would of perrished.

That could be said of every war in history.

 

[Timtofly]

While you, your fellow Premils and the Pharisees did not accept Christ as Christ, many did and do today. Amongst them are most Amils. While Jesus did not come and meet the religious Jews faulty expectation of a physical territorial kingdom where the Messiah would reign over physical Israel and subjugate the Gentile nations. He did come as a spiritual king reigning over a spiritual kingdom.

The Pharasees would have declared no future church age. It is the here and now, since the Babylonian captivity.

 

[Marty fox]

How do you know the figures you present are true, they aren't in my Bible

Perhaps your trusting in "Flavius Josephus" AKA (Joseph Ben Matthias) the Paid propagandist by the Roman Emperors and Jewish traitor to his people the Jews

Well I do believe that it’s mentioned in the bible but yes and he was a recognized historian who along with Tacitus is one of the very few non Christian historians to actually record that Jesus really existed

 

[Timtofly]

He is like a dog on a chain. Satan is powerless to do certain things today.

• Satan is powerless to do what he wants to do.
• He is powerless to stop the Church of Jesus Christ spreading the good news of Gospel throughout the nations.
• He is powerless to stop someone coming to Christ.
• He is powerless to stop a man or woman of God walking in the will of God.
• He is powerless to harm a believer without God’s permission.
• He is powerless to resist a Spirit-filled believer implementing delegated authority from on high against the devil and his demons.
• He is powerless to affect the final outcome of this great battle between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness.

Satan was the same in the OT and could not do anything without God's permission. Your historical binding was not new nor new news in the first century. It was the darkness of sin that was brought to an end at the Cross.

After the Second Coming Satan will be put away without running interference period. There will be no sin period. There will be rules to break. But instant Death. No prison, no courtrooms, no judges, no advocates, no justice system, and certainly no police force necessary. Once a child is grown, breaking the rules will have been shed as a childish thing.

Since dying won't be a thing, after 900 years there will be 10's of billions of humans on earth. At the end a few billion young ones will listen to Satan and march across the earth to protest at Jerusalem. They will be consumed by fire as a response from God. They will be the minority at the edges of society.

This is hardly what you call the here and now. People are aborting life right and left. People are constantly dying. People move around and fight wars constantly. Satan is constantly going before the GWT night and day accusing the brethren on earth. Jesus keeps reminding him as our advocate that his accusations are pointless.

 

[Truth7t7]

Well I do believe that it’s mentioned in the bible but yes and he was a recognized historian who along with Tacitus is one of the very few non Christian historians to actually record that Jesus really existed

The 70AD destruction of Jerusalem isn't found in my holy Bible

Possibly in your preterist opinion of my holy bible, and nothing more, your opinion that's wrong

Just as your denial that a literal, visible, second coming of Jesus Christ is seen below in Matthew 24:30, with your interpretation the scripture below represents a judgment upon Jerusalem, "Big Smiles" to that claim!

Matthew 24:30KJV
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Many you don’t actually realize what you said but God wouldn’t think that the events of 70 were an LOL or not a great tribulation.

70 AD was not only prophesied (the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.) And was promised that it would happen if Israel sinned (lev 26)

But that does not mean it was the "great tribulation that has not been seen since the begining of the world or will be after)

1.2 million people were killed and only 97000 survived to be taken away as slaves. One mother actually ate her baby and the city and temple were completely. There were no bombs causing mass deaths each of the 1.2 million people who were killed were killed up close and personal and many of them women and children. With the shortage of wood multiple people were crucified on the same cross at the same time.

You are wrong that was a great tribulation which Jesus himself wept over.

1.2 million? Thats nothing

WW1 - The total number of military and civilian casualties in World War I was about 40 million: estimates range from around 15 to 22 million deaths[1] and about 23 million wounded military personnel, ranking it among the deadliest conflicts in human history.

WW2 -World War II was the deadliest military conflict in history. An estimated total of 70–85 million people perished, or about 3% of the 2.3 billion (est.) people on Earth in 1940.[1] Deaths directly caused by the war (including military and civilian fatalities) are estimated at 50–56 million, with an additional estimated 19–28 million deaths from war-related disease and famine. Civilian deaths totaled 50–55 million. Military deaths from all causes totaled 21–25 million, including deaths in captivity of about 5 million prisoners of war. More than half of the total number of casualties are accounted for by the dead of the Republic of China and of the Soviet Union. The tables below give a detailed country-by-country count of human losses. Statistics on the number of military wounded are included whenever available.

Jewish deaths in WW2 -

The Holocaust is the term generally used to describe the genocide of approximately six million European Jews during World War II. Martin Gilbert estimates 5.7 million (78%) of the 7.3 million Jews in German-occupied Europe were Holocaust victims.[179] Estimates of Holocaust deaths range between 4.9 and 5.9 million Jews.[180]

There is your standard.

Jesus said it would be the greatest since the begining of the world. and will never be topped even after.

in my view, The great tribulation will surpass WW2. it will be far worse that what they witnessed in Europe

Yes. Jesus wept over jerusalem. Not because it was THE great tribulation. But because of her unwillingness to repent and turn to him.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yes and the gospel reveals the truth which stop’s people from being deceived can’t you see that?

Satan today is decieving people from seeing Gods truth.. From self deception. to decieving nations to scare people from coming to the truth for fear if beheading or execution.

can't you see that?

Did the revelation from God show you that Jesus declared you redeemed and now you don’t believe in satans deceiving lies?

what does this have to do with me? The passage said he can not decieve the NATIONS.. I am just but one person in a nation of millions of people.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I presented the Op. I did not limit the discussion to one chapter. That is Premil. They only have one string to their guitar. I have been covering multiple passages that support Amil. This tactic reinforces the Op.

yet you can not answer about 1 passage

My friend, Your the one who claims we misinterpret rev 20. If you can;t back up your claim by showing us in context what rev 20 really says, AS WE HAVE,

then you have not proven your point.

it is not a tactic. the only tactic happening here is you refusing to look at the passage and breaking it down for us.

Here I will give you one more chance. In this last chance, I will remove all verse breaks and chapter breaks and let you read it EXACTLY AS WRITTEN.

Please show us where where in Johns writing these words in context you are correct and I am wrong.

rev 19 - 20
Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.”
And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.
Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

here you have your chance, break this passage down piece by piece and explain to me how you get your interpretation.and how we are wrong.

if you can not. Please say so.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yes. He is powerless to keep his goods. Jesus now has the keys of death to transfer one from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light and there is nothing satan can do to stop it.

while I agree.

that is not what the passage says

1. He is bound. He can't MOVE or roam the world, this will last for 1000 Years

He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;

2. He is in the bottomless pit. Basically think of a federal prison. where someone is put in what they call the hole. A desolate place where you have no interaction with anyone. and you can not influence anyone. you can not even communicate with anyone. And no one is aloud to communicate with you.

he cast him into the bottomless pit,

3. He shut him up. Satan can yell and scream all he wants NO ONE WILL HEAR HIM. his voice is IT OFF from the world.

and shut him up,

4. A seal is placed on him, I do not know what this seal is, and the passage does not tell us.

set a seal on him,

why?

all these things happen so he can not deceive the nations. UNTIL the 1000 years are finished.

so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. B

when he will be released and AGAIN decieve the nations.. so that they gather an army. Not only does John tell us he will decieve the nations. He tells us what that means...To gather them to battle against Gods people

Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

This is what the word says. If you can convince me otherwise. I will listen. but until then. I must go with the word.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The Judean Christians fled it. They were preterists.

Jesus foretold it (Matthew 24:16). He was a preterist.

jesus was no preterist.

 

[WPM]

yet you can not answer about 1 passage

My friend, Your the one who claims we misinterpret rev 20. If you can;t back up your claim by showing us in context what rev 20 really says, AS WE HAVE,

then you have not proven your point.

it is not a tactic. the only tactic happening here is you refusing to look at the passage and breaking it down for us.

Here I will give you one more chance. In this last chance, I will remove all verse breaks and chapter breaks and let you read it EXACTLY AS WRITTEN.

Please show us where where in Johns writing these words in context you are correct and I am wrong.

rev 19 - 20
Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.”
And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.
Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

here you have your chance, break this passage down piece by piece and explain to me how you get your interpretation.and how we are wrong.

if you can not. Please say so.

The 1st place you err is in thinking that Revelation 20 is chronological in time to Revelation 19. It is not. Revelation is a series of recaps covering the intra-Advent period and culminating the the glorious climactic return of Jesus Christ. Revelation 19 is depiction of that one-and-only final all-consummating coming of the Lord Jesus Christ at the end of the world. No one survives it! I have showed that several times on this thread. You have obviously overlooked those posts. I highlighted in the Op that this issue is one of several major mistakes that Premils make in their approach to end times. They simply do not understand the formal of Revelation. The proof of that is in the fact that there is nowhere else in the Bible that teaches this or that supports any of the main tenets of Premil. It carries zero corroboration. That is damning to the belief.

Check out the detail of Revelation and show me how anyone could survive this? Revelation 19 forbids your doctrine. This shows how Premils are not the literalists they constantly claim. They spiritualize multiple passages that expose their doctrine.

Let us look at Revelation 19 in detail to see who is right.

Revelation 19:11-16, “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall shepherd them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

A plain reading of the passage before us reveals that Christ is coming back with wrath to execute judgment and destroy all those left behind. He is not going to reward men for their rebellion by leading them unto the glorified new earth. Neither is Christ coming to engage in some ill-fated war against evil for a thousand years – that is not remotely in the text. The King of kings and Lord of lords will not have to fight for victory. He already won that decisively at the cross.

Christ is seen pouring out His wrath without mixture upon the nations as He smites them in His fury with “a sharp sword” that comes “out of his mouth.” What is the result of this act? It shall “smite the nations” that have missed the catching away. This is what awaits the nations. They are going to be smitten. The word for “smite” in this text is the Greek word patasso, which means to strike with a weapon or to smite fatally. It means to smite down, cut down, to kill, slay.

Let us be clear: Heis coming to smite down the nations, not corral them into some sin-cursed, goat-infested, death-blighted millennial age. It says that “he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.” This is not a pretty sight. This is not loose talk by God. This is not something that the nations should look forward to. What awaits the nations that have rejected Christ is utter destruction and devastation. The nations left behind are totally destroyed. Christ destroys them by the very utterance of His mouth.

The two words interpreted “fierceness” and “wrath” here are thumos and orge which are regularly employed in the New Testament to mean ‘fierceness, indignation, wrath and vengeance’. The word orge carries the additional meaning of ‘violent passion’. Clearly the Lord is not happy with those left behind. Like those left behind in Noah’s day and Sodom they face an awful end, as they receive the reward of their rejection of Christ.

Revelation 19:17-18 continues, “I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. The loipoy (or remaining ones) those left behind were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”

Please see that the wicked are destroyed by the sword of His voice. This is complete wholesale total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!

The feasting part of the marriage supper of the Lamb is a symbolism depicted the destruction of the wicked. Why can this not be a symbolic depiction of the return of Christ and the events that accompany it (including the destruction of the wicked)?

The first part of the narrative outlines a detailed account of the assignment given to “the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven” by the heavenly messenger. The “fowls” are instructed to “come and gather” themselves “together unto the supper of the great God” in order that they would “eat”:

1. The flesh of kings,
2. The flesh of captains,
3. The flesh of mighty men,
4. The flesh of horses, them that sit on them,
5. The flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

This passage powerfully and solemnly reveals the full extent of the devastation that is to be focused upon the wicked on the day of God’s wrath. In perfect keeping with the rest of Scripture, this narrative graphically shows us that the destruction that occurs will be immediate, absolute and total and that, at this stage – after “the marriage of the Lamb” (Rev 19:7) – everyone left behind will be completely consumed; the birds of heaven filling themselves with “the flesh of all men.” Significantly, the suffix “both free and bond, both small and great” is added in order to fully impress the enormity and all-inclusive nature of this feast.

The whole thrust of this reading surrounds a climactic end to the world. Like the rest of Scripture, it records the complete rescue of the saints in the “marriage of the lamb” and the complete destruction of the wicked when the fowls consume the entire wicked left behind. The passage makes no allowance for goats-survivors in this great destruction passage or mortals squeezing into a supposed future millennium. This reading seems to fit in with the scriptural pattern of an all-consummating Coming - all the wicked being consumed.

 

[WPM]

Satan today is decieving people from seeing Gods truth.. From self deception. to decieving nations to scare people from coming to the truth for fear if beheading or execution.

can't you see that?



what does this have to do with me? The passage said he can not decieve the NATIONS.. I am just but one person in a nation of millions of people.

Revelation 20:2 makes clear, "And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years. And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations (ethnos) no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.”

This truth relates to the Gentiles as a whole. It is a generality! But individuals can still be deceived by Satan. This is not a contradiction. It is repeated throughout the OT and the NT. It is telling us that the Gentiles are no longer ignorant. A light has shone on them for 2000 years, giving them the opportunity to see and believe.

Before the cross the Gentiles were considered blind, ignorant, in bondage and living in darkness, deceived by the father of lies. Satan had them hoodwinked. He ruled the nations. He had them under his control. After the resurrection, the Gentiles were no longer deceived as the Gospel light shone throughout the nations. The veil of ignorance was lifted. They are now without excuse.

Isaiah 11:10 says, “And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.”

Does that mean all Gentiles will seek Christ? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Isaiah 42:6-7 says, “I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.”

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Habakkuk 2:14 says, “For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.”

The Old Testament prophets predicted the enlightenment of the Gentiles before Christ began His earthly ministry!

 

[WPM]

Satan today is decieving people from seeing Gods truth.. From self deception. to decieving nations to scare people from coming to the truth for fear if beheading or execution.

can't you see that?



what does this have to do with me? The passage said he can not decieve the NATIONS.. I am just but one person in a nation of millions of people.

Scripture often makes broad general sweeping statements. When Scripture tells us that the Gentiles would no longer be deceived it does not mean every single one of them, or even most of them, would be saved, just that the ignorance would be finally lifted from the darkened Gentiles.

Isaiah 25:7-9 says, “he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations. He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it. And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.”

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Zacharias the father of John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Ghost in Luke 1:67-80 and prophesied: “Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant; The oath which he sware to our father Abraham, That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life … Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us, To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace. And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, and was in the deserts till the day of his shewing unto Israel.”

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Acts 2:17: “And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams.”

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Acts 13:46–48: “Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles (ethnos). For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles (ethnos), that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. And when the Gentiles (ethnos) heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.”

Did this mean the deception that blinded the Gentiles would be finally be lifted from all the darkened Gentiles?

Acts 14:16 confirms that God “in times past (talking about before the cross) suffered all nations to walk in their own ways.”

Did this mean every Gentile in the Old Testament time was unsaved?

Acts 17:30 says, “the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent.”

Did this mean every Gentile in the Old Testament time was unsaved?

Paul received his great commission to go onto the Gentiles with the Gospel during his conversion experience on the road to Damascus. The Lord said unto him in Acts 26:17-18: “Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.”

Did this mean the deception that blinded the Gentiles would be finally be lifted from all the darkened Gentiles?

Acts 26:23 declares, “Christ should suffer, and that He should be the first resurrection from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles (ethnos)."

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Ephesians 2:11-13 confirms this, saying, “ye being in time past Gentiles (ethnos) in the flesh, who are called uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: but now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.”

Did this mean every Gentile in the Old Testament time was unsaved? Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened in this NT era? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The 1st place you err is in thinking that Revelation 20 is chronological in time to Revelation 19. It is not.

I am gonna be honest my friend. I do not see how you can read what I posted. what John said, and still continue to deny that these things happen at one period at the end.

rev 20: Then (OR AFTER THESE THINGS) I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

if the word THEN (Kai) was not there. you MAY be correct. but it is. So you are incorrect in saying I do not understand

This happened (the end of chapter 19)

THEN that happened. satan is bound

It is in sequence. Thats WHY i removed the verse markers which was added by men LONG after John wrote the letter so you could see as written. Men added the chapter break between 19 and 20. John did not.

so don;t try to tell me I do not understand. I understand quite well that not everything is in sequence in revelations. I too believe that Johns gives an account, then starts talking about another account. And both may be occurring at the same time

but to try to use that to try to twist what John said about this one event which had many parts. is to as you call it. add a private interpretaion.

the rest of your post does not help your case. because you did not acknowledge the word THEN.

so I am not going to respond to it.

 

[WPM]

I am gonna be honest my friend. I do not see how you can read what I posted. what John said, and still continue to deny that these things happen at one period at the end.

rev 20: Then (OR AFTER THESE THINGS) I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

if the word THEN (Kai) was not there. you MAY be correct. but it is. So you are incorrect in saying I do not understand

This happened (the end of chapter 19)

THEN that happened. satan is bound

It is in sequence. Thats WHY i removed the verse markers which was added by men LONG after John wrote the letter so you could see as written. Men added the chapter break between 19 and 20. John did not.

so don;t try to tell me I do not understand. I understand quite well that not everything is in sequence in revelations. I too believe that Johns gives an account, then starts talking about another account. And both may be occurring at the same time

but to try to use that to try to twist what John said about this one event which had many parts. is to as you call it. add a private interpretaion.

the rest of your post does not help your case. because you did not acknowledge the word THEN.

so I am not going to respond to it.

Again you avoid the biblical text and keep presenting your beliefs. That is because to acknowledge the climactic detail of Revelation 19 would negate Premil. Premils have an issue with addressing the actual text and with finding corroboration. It is the Scriptures that confirm what we are looking at.

As you dive into the book of Revelation it is important to recognize that it is not chronological. It is a series of recaps. It is a number of repetitions describing the spiritual battle going on during the intra-Advent period. It presents different camera views of the same game (mainly, the period between Christ's First Advent and His Second Advent). Sometimes when one is watching a sports game, the camera is close in on the action, sometimes it presents a broad panoramic view of the game. Sometimes it is focused on the coaches, sometimes it is focused on the players, other times, it is focused on the fans. The book Revelation is a bit like that. Sinclair Ferguson describes the apocalypse as: “Recapitulatory and progressive parallelism.”

What we are looking at is a spiritual revelation of our Savior revealed to us in symbolic form. We get a general overview of the story. We then have an expansion of particular aspects of that story. Scripture often does that.

Revelation 1-22 consists of a number of figurative prophetic parallels (most believe seven in total) revealing the overall battle between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness. They relate, like every other New Testament book, to the period running between the first and Second Advents. John basically goes behind the scenes into the spiritual realm and articulates in symbolic form the enormity of the great conflict between light and darkness. In the book of Revelation, we get a perceptive insight into the invisible realm.

Parallels are simply different camera views of the same corresponding intra-Advent period which look at different aspects of the great battle between darkness and light. Basically, it is telling the same story from different angles.

Looking at Revelation 10:5-7, there is clearly a major dilemma for you those who take Revelation to be a literal chronological unfolding of last day events. They must surely concede, if they are going to be consistent with their view that everything after Revelation 11 (which also makes reference to the seventh trumpet) is in the realm of eternity and the after-life. After all Revelation 10 plainly records that with this particular event “there should be time no longer.” For those who would lightly dismiss this important narrative as anything other than a magnificent picture of the Lord Jesus Christ and His glorious Second Coming, they do foolishly ignore the great wealth of explicit and consistent end-time teaching on this subject and divorce the undoubted harmony of this chapter from the rest of New Testament prophetic teaching.

How could Revelation be chronological when we do not read of the birth of Christ until Revelation 12? The millennium does not follow Revelation 17-19 in time, but rather parallels it. Revelation 20 is the last of 7 recapitulations.

 

[WPM]

I am gonna be honest my friend. I do not see how you can read what I posted. what John said, and still continue to deny that these things happen at one period at the end.

rev 20: Then (OR AFTER THESE THINGS) I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

if the word THEN (Kai) was not there. you MAY be correct. but it is. So you are incorrect in saying I do not understand

This happened (the end of chapter 19)

THEN that happened. satan is bound

It is in sequence. Thats WHY i removed the verse markers which was added by men LONG after John wrote the letter so you could see as written. Men added the chapter break between 19 and 20. John did not.

so don;t try to tell me I do not understand. I understand quite well that not everything is in sequence in revelations. I too believe that Johns gives an account, then starts talking about another account. And both may be occurring at the same time

but to try to use that to try to twist what John said about this one event which had many parts. is to as you call it. add a private interpretaion.

the rest of your post does not help your case. because you did not acknowledge the word THEN.

so I am not going to respond to it.

This proves nothing! John was simply shown a number of parallel visions one after the other, all culminating in the climactic coming of Christ. Each parallel concentrate on the same time period and the symbolic ongoing events that occur throughout, viewing them from slightly different camera angles. Sometimes God is speaking primarily of the elect, sometimes He is majoring on the wicked. Sometimes He is describing the righteous in heaven, sometimes the righteous on earth. Sometimes it is the humans that reside within the kingdom of darkness, sometimes it is the invisible demonic host that reside there. Although coming from divergent angles, the parallels are carefully interwoven like a linen cloth. Often to establish the meaning and format of the book, we have to meticulously and patiently fit the jig-saw pieces together in order to see the unfolding picture. That is not to say we have a full revelation of this peculiar book, but we can have an insight into this inspired book.

Do you recognize the 7 recaps in this book? Do you see it as largely chronological? Or do you see something else?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Revelation 20:2 makes clear, "And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years. And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations (ethnos) no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.”

UNTIL. the 1000 years are fulfilled. WHat happens after this?

This truth relates to the Gentiles as a whole. It is a generality! But individuals can still be deceived by Satan. This is not a contradiction. It is repeated throughout the OT and the NT. It is telling us that the Gentiles are no longer ignorant. A light has shone on them for 2000 years, giving them the opportunity to see and believe.

Satan is BOUND
He is SHUT UP
He is PLACED IN PRISON

That means he can DECIEVE NO ONE.

Before the cross the Gentiles were considered blind, ignorant, in bondage and living in darkness, deceived by the father of lies. Satan had them hoodwinked. He ruled the nations. He had them under his control. After the resurrection, the Gentiles were no longer deceived as the Gospel light shone throughout the nations. The veil of ignorance was lifted. They are now without excuse.

Isaiah 11:10 says, “And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.”

Does that mean all Gentiles will seek Christ? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Isaiah 42:6-7 says, “I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.”

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Habakkuk 2:14 says, “For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.”

The Old Testament prophets predicted the enlightenment of the Gentiles before Christ began His earthly ministry!

My friend, Satan was just as hindered in the OT as he is in the new. Many gentiles came to christ.

Binding does NOT refer to the gospel. This is proven later in the chapter when satan is released..

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone whereb]">[b] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


so as you see. In the passage itself. Deceiving the nations is to gather them and fight Gods people. We see this today, we have seen it for the last 2000 years.. So in context. in the passage. It is proven what deceiving the nation is.. and WHEN satan will be bound, and what that means..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Scripture often makes broad general sweeping statements.

Your right it does.

But john did not leave us with a broad spectrum. He specifically told yus

1. What would happen
2. Why
3. What it is
Your trying to pull a passage a part. and refusing to look at the passage in context. and trying to tell me I am spinning and not looking.

You still have failed to answer my question.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Again you avoid the biblical text and keep presenting your beliefs.

My friend, You are the one doing this.

THEN (after these things)

language is clear. we can look at the language and see what is going on. I not only looked at rev 19 but I look at the first part of rev 20 and kept reading. so I do not pull something out of context.

You keep trying to tell me I am giving just my belief.

I am giving you the passage, and breaking it down. and trying to show you HOW I get that belief (by looking at the passage

your not giving me any reason to change that belief, you are giving me YOUR BELIEF..

so why are we continuing this?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

This proves nothing!

well to you I am sure it does not.

To the average reader who reads a text.

when they see a sequence of events, then sees the words THEN, they understand the what comes AFTER the word THEN follows what comes before.