22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[Spiritual Israelite]

Didn't you say that the angels bound in the river Euphrates are just doing whatever it is angels do? Perhaps I misunderstood what you meant.

Yes, I did say that. So? That doesn't make their binding meaningless. What they are not doing is what it says they will do when they are loosed, which is "slay the third part of men". So, that is what they are bound from doing, not bound from doing anything at all. I would say them being bound from slaying "the third part of men" is quite meaningful, wouldn't you? I don't see why they have to be completely incapacitated in order for their binding to be meaningful.

But anyway, I find this style of discussion laborious and slow, and I don't see much reason to continue.

You are free to do whatever you want. You are not bound to keep discussing this with me.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes that’s the one

Last year I came back to that one for awhile after not posting there for several years, but it was glitchy and very slow at times, so it was painful. I stopped posting there for awhile again because of that and when I came back to it, it wasn't there.

 

[Marty fox]

Last year I came back to that one for awhile after not posting there for several years, but it was glitchy and very slow at times, so it was painful. I stopped posting there for awhile again because of that and when I came back to it, it wasn't there.

Yes thanks

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You're saying spiritual things can't be literal? What you're really saying is one side sometimes sees things as having a spiritual reality while the other sees them as having a physical reality. Either way, they are real, literal events, though. Just because something is spiritual, such as what happened on the day of Pentecost, doesn't make it non-literal.

Also, the foundation of Amil doctrine is based on straightforward, literal passages such as Matthew 28:18, Acts 17:30-31, John 5:28-29 and 2 Peter 3:10-12, so it's not a fair characterization of Amil to say that we just spiritualize everything.

No

I am saying prophecy is not something we should spiritulize. That is what parabolic language does. it uses symbols to represent a spiritual truth]

Prophecy is God foretelling future events.

If the event does not occure. Then the prophet is said to be a false prophet. And he is not from God.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Good grief, man. No one is claiming that the Bible prophecies aren't talking about actual events when symbolism is used.

Lol.. People do it all the time my friend. I have heard it for years.

All of it. No one is saying otherwise. Stop wasting your time arguing with a straw man. It doesn't make you look good when you have to resort to misrepresenting Amils like this.

My friend, I am just stating what I have seen for years. Please don’t try to tell me I have not seen something I have.

We see it in here

Premills see satan being bound as a literal event which happens AFTER the beast and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire (another literal event)

Every amil person I have ever met believes satan being bound is a symbol of satan being Held back from preventing the gospel from being preached.

Bound in a bottomless pit means you are unable to do anything. Held back is not bound. So your not calling it a literal event but a spiritual truth.

If you believe different, than forgive me..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Your mixing up great tribulations as there are many (on the world, on Israel ) but only one "The great tribulation" mentioned in Revelation 7:14 which is world wide and on the church.

I am mentioning the great tribulation of Matt 24. Also called the time of jacobs trouble in the OT.

I never said anything about tribulation’s..

What made the great tribulation of Israel in 70AD the worst that ever will be isn't just about carnage its that the Jews would realize that their God had turned His back on them and allowed their temple to be destroyed. That would of been the worst thing to ever of happened to them even worst than death and what made it more painful is that many Jews would of remembered . Many of them would of also remembered Jesus words below.

Luke 19:41-44
41 As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it 42 and said, “If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace—but now it is hidden from your eyes. 43 The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side. 44 They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God’s coming to you.”

Yes they would of realized that this happened because they rejected and killed their Messiah and God. Nothing could ever be worse than that.

Lol. There was no great tribulation in 70 AD. And All flesh was not threatened in 70 ad in jerusalem or any place else in the world. The technology to destroy all life in a city or anyplace had not yet Ben invented yet.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Instead of making wild unsubstantiated claims, please tell me what Scripture /argument I have not addressed with you.

I have only been given you the scripture since we started talking. And you have not once spoken of it. You keep trying to take me everyplace else.

I gave you multiple chances to show me in the scripture your point of view. You have yet to do it.

Now your playing as if I am making an unsubstantiated claim.

This is getting to be a non sensible argument, if you can’t own up to the fact you will not discuss the passage as written. Then there is no need to go on.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Well stated.
The strongman is bound and his goods / unsaved are taken from him. Nothing the strongman can do about it when people come to Faith through the Lords saving ministry of reconciliation.

The Bible tells us what he is bound from

He is bound from decieving the nations.

There is no mention of the gospel. The gospel was sent to the world Not just nations.

We shoudl not add to the word of God. If we have to add to it to get our point across. We should second guess what we think.

 

[Timtofly]

I thought you said you believe there wouldn't be any sin during the thousand years? Did I misunderstand you? That is what you seem to have implied in post #496.

Is it a sin not to have an embassy in another country?

I think it is talking about political alliance between all nations with Jerusalem. You are basing it on the OT economy which was done away with at the Cross. But it was written to those who only understood that OT economy. There is really no implication to say it is outright sin, or even rebellion. The Nation does not speak for each individuals thought life. If those leaders are elected, I bet they are replaced by the next election.

 

[Marty fox]

I am mentioning the great tribulation of Matt 24. Also called the time of jacobs trouble in the OT.

I never said anything about tribulation’s..



Lol. There was no great tribulation in 70 AD. And All flesh was not threatened in 70 ad in jerusalem or any place else in the world. The technology to destroy all life in a city or anyplace had not yet Ben invented yet.

Many you don’t actually realize what you said but God wouldn’t think that the events of 70 were an LOL or not a great tribulation.

1.2 million people were killed and only 97000 survived to be taken away as slaves. One mother actually ate her baby and the city and temple were completely. There were no bombs causing mass deaths each of the 1.2 million people who were killed were killed up close and personal and many of them women and children. With the shortage of wood multiple people were crucified on the same cross at the same time.

You are wrong that was a great tribulation which Jesus himself wept over.

 

[Marty fox]

The Bible tells us what he is bound from

He is bound from decieving the nations.

There is no mention of the gospel. The gospel was sent to the world Not just nations.

We shoudl not add to the word of God. If we have to add to it to get our point across. We should second guess what we think.

Yes and the gospel reveals the truth which stop’s people from being deceived can’t you see that?

Did the revelation from God show you that Jesus declared you redeemed and now you don’t believe in satans deceiving lies?

 

[Truth7t7]

5. As Rev. 20 is the only mention of Satan being abyssed there is no corroborating verses. there is no need. Show me a verse that requires that every time 1,000 years appears in SCripture we must assume it is allegorical and must be reinterpreted.

Satan is "Currently" bound from "One Specific Purpose", And One Only?

"Deceive The Nations" To Battle

The Non-Literal 1,000 Years (Revelation) 20:1-6 Are Taking Place Now In The Lords Spiritual, And Will Cease At The Future Second Coming

If A Tribulation Saint Were To Die One Day Before The Second Coming, He Enters Into The Non-Literal 1,000 Year Reign

Many That Promote Millennialism Falsely Teach, Satan Cant Be Presently Bound Because Evil Exist In The World?

Satan Is Presently Bound As Is Clearly Seen In (Revelation) 20:7-8 Below That Interprets (Deceive The Nations) Is To Battle, Not General Evil In The World Presently.

Satan Is Loosed At The End Of The Tribulation When The 6th Vial Is Poured Out As Seen In (Revelation) 16:12, The Deception Is Devils In False Miracles Going Forth To The Kings Of The Earth, To Gather Them To The Final Battle

(Revelation) 20:1-9KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

(Revelation) 16:12-14 & (Revelation) 20:7-8 Same Deception In Gathering The Nations To The Very Same Final Battle In "Parallel" Teachings Of The Same Event

(Revelation) 16:12-17KJV
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

 

[WPM]

I have only been given you the scripture since we started talking. And you have not once spoken of it. You keep trying to take me everyplace else.

I gave you multiple chances to show me in the scripture your point of view. You have yet to do it.

Now your playing as if I am making an unsubstantiated claim.

This is getting to be a non sensible argument, if you can’t own up to the fact you will not discuss the passage as written. Then there is no need to go on.

I presented the Op. I did not limit the discussion to one chapter. That is Premil. They only have one string to their guitar. I have been covering multiple passages that support Amil. This tactic reinforces the Op.

 

[Truth7t7]

Many you don’t actually realize what you said but God wouldn’t think that the events of 70 were an LOL or not a great tribulation.

1.2 million people were killed and only 97000 survived to be taken away as slaves. One mother actually ate her baby and the city and temple were completely. There were no bombs causing mass deaths each of the 1.2 million people who were killed were killed up close and personal and many of them women and children. With the shortage of wood multiple people were crucified on the same cross at the same time.

You are wrong that was a great tribulation which Jesus himself wept over.

70AD Jerusalem didn't fulfill any part of Matthew chapter 24 in the Olivet discourse, your preterist teachings and belief claim otherwise

Marty you deny that the literal, visible, second coming of Jesus Christ is seen in Matthew 24:30 below, you claim the verse is symbolic in a Judgement upon Israel in 70AD, "Big Head Shake, Eye Roll"!

Matthew 24:30KJV
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

[jeffweeder]

The Bible tells us what he is bound from

Yes. He is powerless to keep his goods. Jesus now has the keys of death to transfer one from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light and there is nothing satan can do to stop it.

 

[covenantee]

70AD Jerusalem didn't fulfill any part of Matthew chapter 24 in the Olivet discourse, your preterist teachings and belief claim otherwise

The Judean Christians fled it. They were preterists.

Jesus foretold it (Matthew 24:16). He was a preterist.

 

[Truth7t7]

1.2 million people were killed and only 97000 survived to be taken away as slaves. One mother actually ate her baby and the city and temple were completely. There were no bombs causing mass deaths each of the 1.2 million people who were killed were killed up close and personal and many of them women and children. With the shortage of wood multiple people were crucified on the same cross at the same time.

You are wrong that was a great tribulation which Jesus himself wept over.

How do you know the figures you present are true, they aren't in my Bible

Perhaps your trusting in "Flavius Josephus" AKA (Joseph Ben Matthias) the Paid propagandist by the Roman Emperors and Jewish traitor to his people the Jews

 

[Truth7t7]

The Judean Christians fled it. They were preterists.

Jesus foretold it (Matthew 24:16). He was a preterist.

Matthew 24:15 Daniel's AOD "Future"

Matthew 24:21 The Great Tribulation "Future"

Matthew 24:29-30 The Second Coming "Future"

 

[Truth7t7]

Bound in a bottomless pit means you are unable to do anything. Held back is not bound. So your not calling it a literal event but a spiritual truth.

If you believe different, than forgive me..

Just as post #752 above explains

Satan is bound in Revelation 20:3 from one specific purpose and one only (Deceive The Nations To Battle) Satan isn't bound from doing any and all evil as you suggest

 

[Timtofly]

Because the context was the destruction of Jerusalem

No it was not. Jesus only claimed the temple would be removed. No one asked or talked about Jerusalem itself. Your faulty jumping to conclusions has you adding to the OD stuff that is not there. Jesus did say in another portion of the OD that it would be surrounded by armies and the desolation of Jerusalem would be near. But that was not the context of Matthew 24.