22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[WPM]

UNTIL. the 1000 years are fulfilled. WHat happens after this?



Satan is BOUND
He is SHUT UP
He is PLACED IN PRISON

That means he can DECIEVE NO ONE.



My friend, Satan was just as hindered in the OT as he is in the new. Many gentiles came to christ.

Binding does NOT refer to the gospel. This is proven later in the chapter when satan is released..

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone whereb]">[b] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


so as you see. In the passage itself. Deceiving the nations is to gather them and fight Gods people. We see this today, we have seen it for the last 2000 years.. So in context. in the passage. It is proven what deceiving the nation sis.. and WHEN satan will be bound, and what that means..

Israel was blessed with the Word of God for centuries. But the Gentile nations of the earth were in wholesale darkness, with the odd rare exception. They were ignorant of God’s truth. They were without knowledge of Christ. They basically could not call upon One they did not know.
Before the cross the Gentiles are continually depicted as being ignorant, blind, in darkness and in rebellion. In the New Testament the Gentiles are said to be enlightened and trusting in God. These are obviously general sweeping statements. They are relative and comparative. Scripture is basically contrasting the wholesale darkness that cloaked the Gentiles in the Old Testament to the widespread evangelism of the New Testament era which saw the Gospel invade all nations and set countless millions free. From a handful of rare Gentile conversions, including one lone Gentile city, to the global spread and success of the great commission, we are looking at in an incredible success.

Gentiles are said here to have been “without God” and “without hope” before the cross. That was a horrible place to be. Even though these are sweeping statements, that did not mean all Gentiles were unsaved. They were not there are many examples of Gentiles encountering God in the Old Testament. They were general simplifications.

The examples of salvation in the OT are rare and far-between, and are just a drop in the bucket of the countless millions of blind ignorant Gentiles. We know of Abel, Noah, Abraham, Ruth (Ruth 1:16), the widow women of Zarephath that entertained Elijah (1 Kings 17:24), Rahab the harlot and “all her kindred” (Joshua 6:23-25), Naaman (2 Kings 5:15), the Queen of Sheba (Matthew 12:42), and the inhabitants of the Gentile city of Ninevah (Jonah 3:5).

Israel was His only chosen people. Most honest and informed Bible students accept this. Read the following carefully.

Exodus 33:13-16: “Now therefore, I pray thee, if I have found grace in thy sight, shew me now thy way, that I may know thee, that I may find grace in thy sight: and consider that this nation is thy people. And he said, My presence shall go with thee, and I will give thee rest. And he said unto him, If thy presence go not with me, carry us not up hence. For wherein shall it be known here that I and thy people have found grace in thy sight? is it not in that thou goest with us? so shall we be separated, I and thy people, from all the people that are upon the face of the earth.”

Deuteronomy 7:6-8 confirms, “God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.”

Deuteronomy 14:2 declares: “the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.”

Deuteronomy 32:8-9 tells us: “For the LORD's portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.”

2 Samuel 7:23-24 says: “what one nation in the earth is like thy people, even like Israel, whom God went to redeem for a people to himself, and to make him a name, and to do for you great things and terrible.”

Psalm 147:19-20: “He sheweth his word unto Jacob, his statutes and his judgments unto Israel. He hath not dealt so with any nation.”

Amos 3:2 confirms this, saying of Israel: “You only have I known of all the families of the earth.”

 

[WPM]

My friend, You are the one doing this.

THEN (after these things)

language is clear. we can look at the language and see what is going on. I not only looked at rev 19 but I look at the first part of rev 20 and kept reading. so I do not pull something out of context.

You keep trying to tell me I am giving just my belief.

I am giving you the passage, and breaking it down. and trying to show you HOW I get that belief (by looking at the passage

your not giving me any reason to change that belief, you are giving me YOUR BELIEF..

so why are we continuing this?

I am seeing a pattern in your posts (that is common with Premils): you do not address the text in view, you do not address the counter-points, you do not provide corroboration, and you do not answer my questions. It is all one way! Notwithstanding, I will address your argument.

Many Amillennialists see 7 cycles in Revelation relating to the intra-Advent period. These parallel each other.

Cycle 1

Cycle 1 is basically introductory. It is the only vision that was received on Patmos.

It relates to direct messages relating to the conduct of the seven churches (Ch 2-3).

CYCLE 2 (received in heaven)

Seven Seals (Ch 6-8:1)

CYCLE 3 (received in heaven)

Seven Trumpets (Ch 8:6-10:7)

CYCLE 4 (received in heaven)

The Church and its onslaught from the devil (Ch 12) including a parallel view of the beast’s (the world antichrist system – intra-advent) persecution of the elect (Ch 13) and the simultaneous joy of the redeemed (Ch 14) in heaven (Ch 12-14).

CYCLE 5 (received in heaven)

Seven Vials (Ch 16)

CYCLE 6 (received in heaven)

Babylon (17-19)

CYCLE 7 (received in heaven)

The figurative binding of Satan from the cross and the victorious reign of the saints in heaven. The ushering in of the New Heaven and the New Earth (Ch 20-22).

It is interesting that each of these parallels that were received in heaven (2-7) start with the Greek word kai ("And") even though they commence a new vision pertaining to the intra-Advent period and ending at the second coming.

 

[Taken]

How are we translated into a Kingdom which is not here?
Colossians 1:13
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

How do we seek a Kingdom which is not here?
Matthew 6:33
But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

How did a Kingdom which is not here come unto them?
Matthew 12:28
But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

How could a Kingdom which is not here be like all of the objects in Jesus' parables, which are here?
Matthew 13:24-47


"Near"--not *here!* is another risible dispensational fabrication.

It is abject nonsense.

Correct. Jesus’ kingdom is not OF this world.
“OF” is the Big clue. Open eyes, Open ears, this world is corrupt.
Not the first time this world has been a mess.
God Cleansed the Earth once with a Great Flood.
...Jesus will sit in His kingdom, the exact Land Promised Abraham.
...Jesus will sit on king David’s Throne In Jerusalem. 1,000 years.
* Saints will occupy Jesus’ kingdom.
* Mortals will occupy Nations outside of Jesus’ kingdom.
Satan shall be loosed, gather the Nations Against Jesus’ kingdom.
...Oops, that two edged sword of Jesus shall cut asunder mortal kings and people against King of kings; King Jesus.
...Holy angels shall defeat demon spirits.
The last go round upon the earth (will not be another “cleansing”), but a complete “Purification” with Fire.
* THEN shall “THIS” whole world BE OF His Kingdom.

Glory to God,
Taken

John 18:
[36] Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

 

[WPM]

UNTIL. the 1000 years are fulfilled. WHat happens after this?



Satan is BOUND
He is SHUT UP
He is PLACED IN PRISON

That means he can DECIEVE NO ONE.



My friend, Satan was just as hindered in the OT as he is in the new. Many gentiles came to christ.

Binding does NOT refer to the gospel. This is proven later in the chapter when satan is released..

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone whereb]">[b] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


so as you see. In the passage itself. Deceiving the nations is to gather them and fight Gods people. We see this today, we have seen it for the last 2000 years.. So in context. in the passage. It is proven what deceiving the nation is.. and WHEN satan will be bound, and what that means..

Satan is released from the abyss near the end in Revelation 20:7. The release of Satan at the end from the abyss restriction (Revelation 9:1-11 and Revelation 20:7) corresponds with the beast also rising from the abyss (Revelation 11:7 and Revelation 17:8) and also the many fallen angels (Revelation 9:1-11). This reinforces that this all relates to a period before the second coming.

Most theologians rightly connect the beast to both antichrist and the mystery of iniquity. 2 Thessalonians 2:7 shows a release of the mystery of iniquity before Christ’s return: “he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed.” Whenever God is ready, the restrainer will step back; that is, the Holy Spirit will be taken out of the way (2 Thessalonians 2:7). Then, says Paul, the lawless one will be given full power to deceive them that perish.

With the last throw of the dice the whole kingdom of darkness is eliminated. We learn when his demise comes: “whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming” (2 Thessalonians 2:7).

 

[WPM]

Your right it does.

But john did not leave us with a broad spectrum. He specifically told yus

1. What would happen
2. Why
3. What it is
Your trying to pull a passage a part. and refusing to look at the passage in context. and trying to tell me I am spinning and not looking.

You still have failed to answer my question.

Once again you avoid every single text that rebuts Premil. You are obsessed with 1 chapter - Rev 20. That is all you and Premils want to talk about. That is all you have. This is what I highlighted in the Op, and you are proving it. Your cry is "what saith Rev 20." That is the Premil mantra. Every other passage presented is dismissed if it disagrees with your opinion of Revelation 20. Premil has only got one string in their guitar. That is why every Bible student should reject it. Amils on the other hand embrace the full gamut of Scripture which shows that sin, death, decay, Satan and the wicked are destroyed at the second coming.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Israel was blessed with the Word of God for centuries. But the Gentile nations of the earth were in wholesale darkness, with the odd rare exception. They were ignorant of God’s truth. They were without knowledge of Christ. They basically could not call upon One they did not know.
Before the cross the Gentiles are continually depicted as being ignorant, blind, in darkness and in rebellion. In the New Testament the Gentiles are said to be enlightened and trusting in God. These are obviously general sweeping statements. They are relative and comparative. Scripture is basically contrasting the wholesale darkness that cloaked the Gentiles in the Old Testament to the widespread evangelism of the New Testament era which saw the Gospel invade all nations and set countless millions free. From a handful of rare Gentile conversions, including one lone Gentile city, to the global spread and success of the great commission, we are looking at in an incredible success.

Gentiles are said here to have been “without God” and “without hope” before the cross. That was a horrible place to be. Even though these are sweeping statements, that did not mean all Gentiles were unsaved. They were not there are many examples of Gentiles encountering God in the Old Testament. They were general simplifications.

The examples of salvation in the OT are rare and far-between, and are just a drop in the bucket of the countless millions of blind ignorant Gentiles. We know of Abel, Noah, Abraham, Ruth (Ruth 1:16), the widow women of Zarephath that entertained Elijah (1 Kings 17:24), Rahab the harlot and “all her kindred” (Joshua 6:23-25), Naaman (2 Kings 5:15), the Queen of Sheba (Matthew 12:42), and the inhabitants of the Gentile city of Ninevah (Jonah 3:5).

Israel was His only chosen people. Most honest and informed Bible students accept this. Read the following carefully.

Exodus 33:13-16: “Now therefore, I pray thee, if I have found grace in thy sight, shew me now thy way, that I may know thee, that I may find grace in thy sight: and consider that this nation is thy people. And he said, My presence shall go with thee, and I will give thee rest. And he said unto him, If thy presence go not with me, carry us not up hence. For wherein shall it be known here that I and thy people have found grace in thy sight? is it not in that thou goest with us? so shall we be separated, I and thy people, from all the people that are upon the face of the earth.”

Deuteronomy 7:6-8 confirms, “God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.”

Deuteronomy 14:2 declares: “the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.”

Deuteronomy 32:8-9 tells us: “For the LORD's portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.”

2 Samuel 7:23-24 says: “what one nation in the earth is like thy people, even like Israel, whom God went to redeem for a people to himself, and to make him a name, and to do for you great things and terrible.”

Psalm 147:19-20: “He sheweth his word unto Jacob, his statutes and his judgments unto Israel. He hath not dealt so with any nation.”

Amos 3:2 confirms this, saying of Israel: “You only have I known of all the families of the earth.”

please stick to the text.

If you can not show me in the text where you are seeing this, Then you can not prove your point..

Where is this in the text. I posted the whole text to you. If what you say is true, it should be EASY for you to show me.

 

[WPM]

UNTIL. the 1000 years are fulfilled. WHat happens after this?



Satan is BOUND
He is SHUT UP
He is PLACED IN PRISON

That means he can DECIEVE NO ONE.



My friend, Satan was just as hindered in the OT as he is in the new. Many gentiles came to christ.

Binding does NOT refer to the gospel. This is proven later in the chapter when satan is released..

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone whereb]">[b] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


so as you see. In the passage itself. Deceiving the nations is to gather them and fight Gods people. We see this today, we have seen it for the last 2000 years.. So in context. in the passage. It is proven what deceiving the nation is.. and WHEN satan will be bound, and what that means..

Not so!

Was there any significant change in the Gospel focus that occurred as a result of the life, death and resurrection of Christ? Was there any benefit? Was there any increase in the scope of the light shining? Was there a major turnaround in the state of the Gentiles between the Old and the New Testament? Was there any notable change in regard to the degree of ignorance and deception that curtailed the Gentiles?

Before we answer that: we should identify the general spiritual standing of both Israel and the Gentiles before God in the Old Testament and contrast that to their general spiritual standing before God in the New Testament. Repeated Old Testament and New Testament Scripture contrast the state of the "nation" (singular) Israel to the nations (plural) – the Gentiles.

Many forget that there has been a seismic change in regard to the Gospel opportunity since the First Advent specifically in regard to the nations. Before the cross the Gentiles were in blind ignorance, deceived by the father of lies. After the resurrection, the Gentiles were no longer deceived as the Gospel light shone throughout the nations. The veil of ignorance was lifted. They are now without excuse. Satan had them hoodwinked. They lay in darkness. He ruled the nations before the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. He had them under his control.

During the Old Testament era, God controlled one single nation whereas Satan controlled the nations (ethnos - the Gentiles) plural.

 

[WPM]

please stick to the text.

If you can not show me in the text where you are seeing this, Then you can not prove your point..

Where is this in the text. I posted the whole text to you. If what you say is true, it should be EASY for you to show me.

• I get it that you interpret the rest of Scripture by your faulty opinion of Revelation 20 but Amils interpret Revelation 20 by employing the rest of Scripture to explain it.
• I get it that you dismiss any Scripture that exposes your faulty opinion of Revelation 20. Amils are the opposite.

 

[marks]

The Bible tells us what he is bound from

He is bound from decieving the nations.

There is no mention of the gospel. The gospel was sent to the world Not just nations.

And not just that he's bound from deceiving the nations, but the Bible also gives Satan's intent for his deceipt,

Revelation 20:8 KJV
8) And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

He wants war.

Revelation 20:9 KJV
9) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

War against God, and the people of God. No different than the great tribulation.

Much love!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I am seeing a pattern in your posts (that is common with Premils): you do not address the text in view,

Ok, we need to put a stop right here my friend, You are not only being argumentative, you are being unfactual in your accusation.

I AM THE ONE who has continually looked AT THE TEXT. Your the one who refuses to look at it and wants to go outside of the text to try to convince me you are correct.

you do not address the counter-points,

What counter points? Non of your counter points address THE PASSAGE and what is spoken?

you do not provide corroboration,

So me writing the text down, and point by point showing you what is said is not collaboration?

Come on man, Your hurting your argument

and you do not answer my questions. It is all one way! Notwithstanding, I will address your argument.

My friend you have not answered my question I have asked since we began this conversation. I asked one simple thing, you have failed to do it. All you do is beat around the bush and tell me in essenc not to listen to what John said, but go find parts of scripture which supports your belief.

Many Amillennialists see 7 cycles in Revelation relating to the intra-Advent period. These parallel each other.

I am not asking what amilenial people believe ( I believe it was spoken of earlier between some people in this thread that we need to stop trying to pit two views against each other and just look at the facts) . I am asking what John said in the passage, and for you to show me where your view is supported IN THE PASSAGE.,

You evidently can not do this..

 

[Marty fox]

70 AD was not only prophesied (the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.) And was promised that it would happen if Israel sinned (lev 26)

But that does not mean it was the "great tribulation that has not been seen since the begining of the world or will be after)



1.2 million? Thats nothing

WW1 - The total number of military and civilian casualties in World War I was about 40 million: estimates range from around 15 to 22 million deaths[1] and about 23 million wounded military personnel, ranking it among the deadliest conflicts in human history.

WW2 -World War II was the deadliest military conflict in history. An estimated total of 70–85 million people perished, or about 3% of the 2.3 billion (est.) people on Earth in 1940.[1] Deaths directly caused by the war (including military and civilian fatalities) are estimated at 50–56 million, with an additional estimated 19–28 million deaths from war-related disease and famine. Civilian deaths totaled 50–55 million. Military deaths from all causes totaled 21–25 million, including deaths in captivity of about 5 million prisoners of war. More than half of the total number of casualties are accounted for by the dead of the Republic of China and of the Soviet Union. The tables below give a detailed country-by-country count of human losses. Statistics on the number of military wounded are included whenever available.

Jewish deaths in WW2 -

The Holocaust is the term generally used to describe the genocide of approximately six million European Jews during World War II. Martin Gilbert estimates 5.7 million (78%) of the 7.3 million Jews in German-occupied Europe were Holocaust victims.[179] Estimates of Holocaust deaths range between 4.9 and 5.9 million Jews.[180]

There is your standard.

Jesus said it would be the greatest since the begining of the world. and will never be topped even after.

in my view, The great tribulation will surpass WW2. it will be far worse that what they witnessed in Europe

Yes. Jesus wept over jerusalem. Not because it was THE great tribulation. But because of her unwillingness to repent and turn to him.

What made it the worst to the Jews was two things first is that they would of realized that their God had abandoned and allowed their temple and sacrifice to be ended and destroyed. To them they couldn't worship and offer sin sacrifice anymore.

But the very worse part was that they realized that they rejected and killed their God and Messiah.

 

[WPM]

Ok, we need to put a stop right here my friend, You are not only being argumentative, you are being unfactual in your accusation.

I AM THE ONE who has continually looked AT THE TEXT. Your the one who refuses to look at it and wants to go outside of the text to try to convince me you are correct.



What counter points? Non of your counter points address THE PASSAGE and what is spoken?


So me writing the text down, and point by point showing you what is said is not collaboration?

Come on man, Your hurting your argument


My friend you have not answered my question I have asked since we began this conversation. I asked one simple thing, you have failed to do it. All you do is beat around the bush and tell me in essenc not to listen to what John said, but go find parts of scripture which supports your belief.

I am not asking what amilenial people believe ( I believe it was spoken of earlier between some people in this thread that we need to stop trying to pit two views against each other and just look at the facts) . I am asking what John said in the passage, and for you to show me where your view is supported IN THE PASSAGE.,

You evidently can not do this..

The reader can see for himself who is addressing the issue, who has corroboration and who is presenting a biblical argument.

I previously showed you, and once again you avoided it:

"It is interesting that each of these parallels that were received in heaven (2-7) start with the Greek word kai ("And") even though they commence a new vision pertaining to the intra-Advent period and ending at the second coming."

Getting you to address the issues is like getting blood out of a stone.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Once again you avoid every single text that rebuts Premil.

you are really a hoot here my friend

I am NOT discussing premil or amil

I am DISCUSSING rev 20.

what can;'t you still to the discussion?

You are obsessed with 1 chapter - Rev 20. That is all you and Premils want to talk about. That is all you have. This is what I highlighted in the Op, and you are proving it. Your cry is "what saith Rev 20." That is the Premil mantra. Every other passage presented is dismissed if it disagrees with your opinion of Revelation 20. Premil has only got one string in their guitar. That is why every Bible student should reject it. Amils on the other hand embrace the full gamut of Scripture which shows that sin, death, decay, Satan and the wicked are destroyed at the second coming.

My friend, Our discussion if rev 20. You want to try to discuss a whole doctrine. We can do that if you wish. But lets first get rev 20 settled.

You claimed I am wrong in my view. and I have asked yu MULTIPLE times to SHOW me IN THE PASSAGE how that can be.

and also to show me IN THE PASSAGE anything that supports your view.

I can't move on to anything else until we first resolve this

if we do not resolve this we will not resolve anything.

Finally, If you want to continue this pre mil attack and not look at the passage. I will turn the attack back on you. Your so stuck in AMIl you can;t look at a passage and actually discuss it.

And I do not think I need to explain why I think you would do that. for one, it does nothing to help our discussion. and two. I think it is plain for many to see

 

[marks]

2. He is in the bottomless pit. Basically think of a federal prison. where someone is put in what they call the hole. A desolate place where you have no interaction with anyone. and you can not influence anyone. you can not even communicate with anyone. And no one is aloud to communicate with you.

Now "satan roams about". Then, he will be sealed in the abyss. It seems very clear to me.

Much love!

 

[Marty fox]

while I agree.

that is not what the passage says

1. He is bound. He can't MOVE or roam the world, this will last for 1000 Years

He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;

2. He is in the bottomless pit. Basically think of a federal prison. where someone is put in what they call the hole. A desolate place where you have no interaction with anyone. and you can not influence anyone. you can not even communicate with anyone. And no one is aloud to communicate with you.

he cast him into the bottomless pit,

3. He shut him up. Satan can yell and scream all he wants NO ONE WILL HEAR HIM. his voice is IT OFF from the world.

and shut him up,

4. A seal is placed on him, I do not know what this seal is, and the passage does not tell us.

set a seal on him,

why?

all these things happen so he can not deceive the nations. UNTIL the 1000 years are finished.

so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. B

when he will be released and AGAIN decieve the nations.. so that they gather an army. Not only does John tell us he will decieve the nations. He tells us what that means...To gather them to battle against Gods people

Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

This is what the word says. If you can convince me otherwise. I will listen. but until then. I must go with the word.

Revelation 20:2
2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit,

Lets look at the verse above

2 He laid hold of the dragon,(dragon is symbolic) that serpent (serpent is symbolic)of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, (bottomless pit is symbolic)

Why is the dragon, serpent and bottomless pit all symbolic but not the binding? Does that make sense? Can there actually be a bottomless pit?

 

[marks]

well to you I am sure it does not.

To the average reader who reads a text.

when they see a sequence of events, then sees the words THEN, they understand the what comes AFTER the word THEN follows what comes before.

Have you seen that much of this debate is over the meanings of words? That's the death spiral of discussion. Once people start challenging the normal and customary and Biblical meanings of words, I seldom see a return from that.

And then there is this divorcing passages from their contexts, next big red flag.

Much love!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Once again you avoid every single text that rebuts Premil.

lolol.. Your obsessed with some text. you are totally unable to look at the passage.

You are obsessed with 1 chapter - Rev 20.

No, I am not obsessed. I have been told I have interpreted it wrong. and I am demanding the one who accused me of such to prove to me IN THE TEXT how I am wrong. He has been unable to do this

That is all you and Premils want to talk about. That is all you have. This is what I highlighted in the Op, and you are proving it. Your cry is "what saith Rev 20." That is the Premil mantra. Every other passage presented is dismissed if it disagrees with your opinion of Revelation 20. Premil has only got one string in their guitar. That is why every Bible student should reject it. Amils on the other hand embrace the full gamut of Scripture which shows that sin, death, decay, Satan and the wicked are destroyed at the second coming.

Actually I have many other things which to discuss. which prevents me believing in your prophetic view. But I want to keep the conversation focused.

again, if we can;t get one passage right, I do not expect we will get anything else right either.

I am also sick of your attitude my friend. I am going to come right out and say it. The reason you do not want to discuss the passage and show me HOW I misinterpreted the very words as spoken, is because you can't

so you do like every other person who has a belief system which interpreting a particular passage as written would contradict their belief system. So you

1. Try to deflect by going to outside passages
2. Use the old (you people - In your case premil) argument
3. Continue to refuse to look at the passagek and do what most people do. and break it down word by word to show what is being said, and why you believe the way you do
4. Try to deflect from the truth by accusing the other of not wanting to discuss anything.
now you can do 1 of 2 things

you can address Rev 19 and 20 by copying it and pasting it AS I HAVE DONE NUMEROUS TIMES NOW

and walk me through Johns words and tell me why I have misinterpreted him

or you can continue to play your games. and I am done..

 

[WPM]

you are really a hoot here my friend

I am NOT discussing premil or amil

I am DISCUSSING rev 20.

what can;'t you still to the discussion?



My friend, Our discussion if rev 20. You want to try to discuss a whole doctrine. We can do that if you wish. But lets first get rev 20 settled.

You claimed I am wrong in my view. and I have asked yu MULTIPLE times to SHOW me IN THE PASSAGE how that can be.

and also to show me IN THE PASSAGE anything that supports your view.

I can't move on to anything else until we first resolve this

if we do not resolve this we will not resolve anything.

Finally, If you want to continue this pre mil attack and not look at the passage. I will turn the attack back on you. Your so stuck in AMIl you can;t look at a passage and actually discuss it.

And I do not think I need to explain why I think you would do that. for one, it does nothing to help our discussion. and two. I think it is plain for many to see

You presented one argument that I quickly refuted and which you (notably) ignored. I showed you the fallacy of your chronological theory and you had no answer, apart from personal attacks. Address the issues and stop avoiding!

 

[Marty fox]

Satan today is decieving people from seeing Gods truth.. From self deception. to decieving nations to scare people from coming to the truth for fear if beheading or execution.

can't you see that?



what does this have to do with me? The passage said he can not decieve the NATIONS.. I am just but one person in a nation of millions of people.

He can't deceive the ones who choose to have faith in the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit reveals' the truth and the mystery of God.

You see the Jews didn't realize that the Messiah was also God and that He would save them.

Matthew 16:13-17
13 When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, “Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?”

14 So they said, “Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”

15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”

16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

What made it the worst to the Jews was two things first is that they would of realized that their God had abandoned and allowed their temple and sacrifice to be ended and destroyed. To them they couldn't worship and offer sin sacrifice anymore.

But the very worse part was that they realized that they rejected and killed their God and Messiah.

my friend, this happened under nebachadnezzar back when Daniel was led exhile to babylon, and eventually given his prophecy of Daniel 9 which spoke of the destruction which occured in 70 AD. The destruction which would occure BEFORE the abomination of desolation. Which Jesu sspoke of in Matt 24. WHich he said would IMMEDIATELY be followed by this great tribulation. which would continue UNTIL christ himself returns to put an end to it.