22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[Eternally Grateful]

The Judean Christians fled in 66 AD. That qualifies as a preterist event.

I am not a preterist. And I agree. the fled. So it is not a preterist event, it is a historical event.

Jesus said when you see the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place (let the reader understand) run.

That event has yet to happen, hence it is yet future. That is not a preterist event

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Now "satan roams about". Then, he will be sealed in the abyss. It seems very clear to me.

Much love!

Should be quite clear amen!!

 

[Marty fox]

Antiochus epiphanes did commit an abomination of desolation. when he slaughtered a pic in the holy place.

He did not go into jerusalem, destroy the city and temple and murder most of the city, That was nebachadnezzer.. see Daniel 1..

as for jesus, the worse thing to ever happen to him was the cross.. Which occurred because of the second worse thing that ever happened and sent him to the cross. the sin of adam and eve in the garden.

so I anm not sure of your point or how it relates.. The great tribulation. or time of jacons trouble is not concerning Jesus, it concerns the world. and Israel as a hole

Jeremiah 30:7
Alas! For that day is great, So that none is like it; And it is the time of Jacob’s trouble, But he shall be saved out of it.

it also says Israel will be saved out of it.. Which is confirmed in Rev 13 I believe. and other places..

that did not happen in 70 AD

Antiochus also plundered the city and killed thousands of Jews until the Maccabees opposed him.

The cross wasn't the worst thing to happen to Jesus it was taking our sins upon Himself

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Have you seen that much of this debate is over the meanings of words? That's the death spiral of discussion. Once people start challenging the normal and customary and Biblical meanings of words, I seldom see a return from that.

And then there is this divorcing passages from their contexts, next big red flag.

Much love!

it is one of the first signs I look for when someone is trying to discuss something with me and trying to get me to see their view. If they can not take words as they are meant, and interpret it with that word in context.

Red Flag

 

[Marty fox]

with god all things are possible.

The dragon, He was satan, a literal being

He is said to be captured and placed in this place called the bottomless pit.

If satan is literal. and can be grabbed, the bottomless pit is a literal place also.

But I'm saying that he wasn't physically grabbed he was bound spiritually which is more damaging to him

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Antiochus also plundered the city and killed thousands of Jews until the Maccabees opposed him.

Did Antiochus destroy the temple and city? That is what we are talking about.

plus it does not matter, I said it STARTED with babylon. It did. when he destroyed the city and sanctuary.

The cross wasn't the worst thing to happen to Jesus it was taking our sins upon Himself

thats all part of the cross my friend. we agree.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

But I'm saying that he wasn't physically grabbed he was bound spiritually which is more damaging to him

I can not agree. It says he was grabbed and bound,

He is bound physically. and shut up so he can not deceive the nations.

He is at work.. we are warned as much, when we are told he wants to devour us.

 

[WPM]

Its prophecy. Prophecy speaks of LITERAL EVENTS. as PROVEN by the fact that JESUS and GENTILE NATIONS have LITERALLY FULILLED past prophetic events.

I interpret prophecy by precedence. I look at past fulfille dprophecy. I see it was fullfilled to the T exacly as prophesied.

If past prophecy was fulfilled literally (it was)

then I look to this precidence and declare that future prophecy will ALSO be fulfilled literaly (I believe it will.)

that is what seperates us

You see prophecy that does not fit your belief system if yuo take it literally, So you make an allegory of it. It is symbolic of a spiritual truth.

I see prophecy as God tellus us what will happen many many years in advance, and when it happens. the people who WITNESS the events happening, will turn and look to God and say, he is the one who told us this would happen and it did, And I know HE IS GOD.

Isreal rejected the prophecies of Jesus and crucified him because they failed to take him literally.

Many will rejec tin the future when they see these things happen.

But many thousand and thousand of peopel since Jesus has believed BASED on fulfilled prophecy, And many in the future will do the same when the things God tells us WILL happen. Happen.

Your posts are very hard to read. They are full of typos. They're all over the place.

You do not look to precedence. You have no support elsewhere in Scripture for a future 1000 years. Your posts are full of opinion and devoid of Scripture. When others present hard Scripture you dismiss or avoid it. The reader can easily see your pattern by looking back on any page! You fail to see the symbolic use of "a thousand." That hurts your understanding of Rev 20. It is a figurative number in a figurative passage.

Amillennialists do not force a bias preconceived notion upon the sacred text. Each passage, chapter and book should be approached recognizing its proper sense and setting. That may be hyper-literal, highly-symbolic, hyperbolic, parabolic, poetic or apocalyptic. But the context and ambience of the location should assist us in determining the overall thrust of the text. What is more, a good knowledge of other relevant Scripture, should reinforce what the sense and setting is telling us. That helps us in interpreting the Bible as it presents itself.

Alan D. Cole, “The interpreter will also consider broader contexts such as the surrounding chapters, the book, or related passages to gain further understanding” (The Grammatical-Historical Hermeneutic).

Alan D. Cole, “When an author uses a figure of speech, he is drawing a colorful analogy between two objects or concepts; therefore, the reader must know the literal meaning of the objects or concepts and the analogy between them” (The Grammatical-Historical Hermeneutic).

Kevin Bauder gives a key principle related to this process when he states, “Historical passages tell us what happened, but by themselves they do not tell us what ought to happen. On the other hand, teaching passages are designed to instruct us in what to do.”

Zuck correctly states, “Figurative language … is not antithetical to literal interpretation; it is a part of it.”

Jack Van Deventer: “The New Testament is full of examples where people erred by failing to recognize Jesus' use of figurative language. When Jesus spoke of the temple of His body (John 2:21) the Jews erred in thinking of a physical temple and sought His death on the basis of this mistaken literal interpretation (Matt. 26:61). Nicodemus' literal interpretation led him to wonder if being "born again" meant to "enter a second time into his mother's womb" (John3:4). When Jesus spoke of "a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life" the Samaritan erred in wanting a literal drink of water (John 4:10-15). These examples are sufficient to demonstrate that a literal (nonfigurative) interpretation can lead to mistaken conclusions” (The Myth of "Consistent Literalism").

 

[Timtofly]

Revelation 20:2 makes clear, "And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years. And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations (ethnos) no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.”

This truth relates to the Gentiles as a whole. It is a generality! But individuals can still be deceived by Satan. This is not a contradiction. It is repeated throughout the OT and the NT. It is telling us that the Gentiles are no longer ignorant. A light has shone on them for 2000 years, giving them the opportunity to see and believe.

Before the cross the Gentiles were considered blind, ignorant, in bondage and living in darkness, deceived by the father of lies. Satan had them hoodwinked. He ruled the nations. He had them under his control. After the resurrection, the Gentiles were no longer deceived as the Gospel light shone throughout the nations. The veil of ignorance was lifted. They are now without excuse.

Isaiah 11:10 says, “And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.”

Does that mean all Gentiles will seek Christ? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Isaiah 42:6-7 says, “I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.”

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Habakkuk 2:14 says, “For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.”

The Old Testament prophets predicted the enlightenment of the Gentiles before Christ began His earthly ministry!

Your main point here is that the first century was the climactic end to all humanity.

Since the first century Satan has been bound. Sin has been eradicated, and for 1992 years we have had no wars nor disobedience to the will of God. That is literally "the truth" you declare has been happening. You said it: Revelation 19 and 20 cover the last 1992 years.

You do realize that only those rebels are killed at the end of Revelation 20, not the whole of humanity at that time. So when they are consumed by fire that is not the Second Coming. Your "Second Coming" is not covered in Revelation 20. You have to make "that stuff" up, and insert it into the text.

 

[WPM]

Its prophecy. Prophecy speaks of LITERAL EVENTS. as PROVEN by the fact that JESUS and GENTILE NATIONS have LITERALLY FULILLED past prophetic events.

I interpret prophecy by precedence. I look at past fulfille dprophecy. I see it was fullfilled to the T exacly as prophesied.

If past prophecy was fulfilled literally (it was)

then I look to this precidence and declare that future prophecy will ALSO be fulfilled literaly (I believe it will.)

that is what seperates us

You see prophecy that does not fit your belief system if yuo take it literally, So you make an allegory of it. It is symbolic of a spiritual truth.

I see prophecy as God tellus us what will happen many many years in advance, and when it happens. the people who WITNESS the events happening, will turn and look to God and say, he is the one who told us this would happen and it did, And I know HE IS GOD.

Isreal rejected the prophecies of Jesus and crucified him because they failed to take him literally.

Many will rejec tin the future when they see these things happen.

But many thousand and thousand of peopel since Jesus has believed BASED on fulfilled prophecy, And many in the future will do the same when the things God tells us WILL happen. Happen.

It is shocking (but understandable) how much Scripture you dodge in order try and sustain your position. I will try again as it is obvious these queries expose your position.

Isaiah 11:10 says, “And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.”

Does that mean all Gentiles will seek Christ? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Isaiah 25:7-9 says, “he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations. He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it. And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.”

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Isaiah 42:6-7 says, “I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.”

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Habakkuk 2:14 says, “For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.”

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Zacharias the father of John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Ghost in Luke 1:67-80 and prophesied: “Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant; The oath which he sware to our father Abraham, That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life … Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us, To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace. And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, and was in the deserts till the day of his shewing unto Israel.”

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Acts 2:17: “And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams.”

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Acts 13:46–48: “Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles (ethnos). For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles (ethnos), that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. And when the Gentiles (ethnos) heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.”

Did this mean the deception that blinded the Gentiles would be finally be lifted from all the darkened Gentiles?

Acts 14:16 confirms that God “in times past (talking about before the cross) suffered all nations to walk in their own ways.”

Did this mean every Gentile in the Old Testament time was unsaved?

Acts 17:30 says, “the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent.”

Did this mean every Gentile in the Old Testament time was unsaved?

Paul received his great commission to go onto the Gentiles with the Gospel during his conversion experience on the road to Damascus. The Lord said unto him in Acts 26:17-18: “Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.”

Did this mean the deception that blinded the Gentiles would be finally be lifted from all the darkened Gentiles?

Acts 26:23 declares, “Christ should suffer, and that He should be the first resurrection from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles (ethnos)."

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Ephesians 2:11-13 confirms this, saying, “ye being in time past Gentiles (ethnos) in the flesh, who are called uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: but now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.”

Did this mean every Gentile in the Old Testament time was unsaved? Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened in this NT era? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

 

[marks]

The proof is a bottomless pit doesn't exist its imposable

The actual word is abusso, abyss. And besides, bottom is determined by gravity, and a pit that went through the center of the earth, you'd fall, but you would never hit bottom.

I don't think we should be interpreting the Bible according to how credible we find it's claims. I think we should look at the certainty of what is said, even if it seems outlandish or impractical to us at the moment. If we say, "I can't conceive of how that can be, so it must not be", we join the ranks of the unbelieving.

Numbers 16:29-33 KJV
29) If these men die the common death of all men, or if they be visited after the visitation of all men; then the LORD hath not sent me.
30) But if the LORD make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that appertain unto them, and they go down quick into the pit; then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the LORD.
31) And it came to pass, as he had made an end of speaking all these words, that the ground clave asunder that was under them:
32) And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods.
33) They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation.

Also rather outlandish, wouldn't you say?

Much love!

 

[WPM]

Your main point here is that the first century was the climactic end to all humanity.

Since the first century Satan has been bound. Sin has been eradicated, and for 1992 years we have had no wars nor disobedience to the will of God. That is literally "the truth" you declare has been happening. You said it: Revelation 19 and 20 cover the last 1992 years.

You do realize that only those rebels are killed at the end of Revelation 20, not the whole of humanity at that time. So when they are consumed by fire that is not the Second Coming. Your "Second Coming" is not covered in Revelation 20. You have to make "that stuff" up, and insert it into the text.

Please do not speak on behalf of Amils. You do not have a clue what we believe. Posts like this prove it. Every time you do you twist what Amils believe. That is why I normally ignore your posts. Read up on Amil before engaging on these forums, then you might understand what we believe. I am not going to waste my time. You obviously do not want to know that because it would challenge your beliefs. All you can do is misrepresent.

 

[Marty fox]

I can not agree. It says he was grabbed and bound,

He is bound physically. and shut up so he can not deceive the nations.

He is at work.. we are warned as much, when we are told he wants to devour us.

Satan is only one being if it was literal wouldn't it also say satan and his minions?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Your posts are very hard to read. They are full of typos. They're all over the place.

Paul could hardly write, His words were hard to read. did that make him wrong?

You keep trying to make excuses as to why you do not want to discuss what is being said.. Your making it hard to even desire to discuss anything with you.

You do not look to precedence.

your stuck on a catholic doctrine my friend. You can not prove your point so yuo use the same arguments they did.

My friend, They created this doctrine you follow.. Thats why you are forced to use their excuses.

Believe what you want.. The fact you are unable to look at the few verses in Rv 19 and 20 to prove your point, or at the very least get me to question that I may be wrong. and the fact you keep using the same old arguments people have been making for years. Leads me to understand there is no need to continue

when your ready to discuss the word. and not what you have been TAUGHT. let me know

 

[Marty fox]

Did Antiochus destroy the temple and city? That is what we are talking about.

plus it does not matter, I said it STARTED with babylon. It did. when he destroyed the city and sanctuary.



thats all part of the cross my friend. we agree.

I'm glad that we agree on something finally LOL

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Satan is only one being if it was literal wouldn't it also say satan and him minions?

It says Satan was bound

It says he was grabbed, and they bound HIM (1 being)

the only other people mentioned were the beast and false prophet.

It says the beast and false prophet were cast into the lake of fire

do you believe the lake of fire is a literal place?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I'm glad that we agree on something finally LOL

lol. we do not have to agree on everything

 

[covenantee]

I am not a preterist. And I agree. the fled. So it is not a preterist event, it is a historical event.

Jesus said when you see the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place (let the reader understand) run.

That event has yet to happen, hence it is yet future. That is not a preterist event

The Judean Christians fled in 66 AD when they saw "Jerusalem compassed with armies" (Luke 21:20,21). That qualifies as both a preterist and a historical event.

 

[Marty fox]

It says Satan was bound

It says he was grabbed, and they bound HIM (1 being)

the only other people mentioned were the beast and false prophet.

It says the beast and false prophet were cast into the lake of fire

do you believe the lake of fire is a literal place?

My point is that if its only satan then why bother if hes only one being that can only be in one place at a time when there is billions of people?

No I don't believe in an actual lake of fire its a spiritual death and torment. Imagine seeing God and then know that because of your choice you can't spend eternity with Him imparadise. That is much worse than a lake of fire imagine the remorse and regret.

 

[Marty fox]

lol. we do not have to agree on everything

Yes we are still on the same side as its not essential doctrine