The Problems of Perpetual Belief Alone Salvation-ism.

[BloodBought 1953]

It’s as simple as this——

Nobody yet can explain why God “ chastises” His Children if they never Sin.....stupid beyond belief.....still waiting for an explanation....Nobody will touch it....

Kinda like the “ Other “ verse that they NEVER respond to—— John 5:24—- “Whoever Believes in Me * ALREADY HAS” Eternal Life and shall *NEVER* come under Condemnation......lol.....we win.....hands down!

Turns out that Jesus was the First and Biggest Proponent for OSAS!

Almost forgot to mention this OTHER “Atomic Bomb” That they cant handle—
2Cor 1:22 “ It is GOD who *MAKES* us and You to Stand Firm in Christ....He CHOSE us, He set His Seal Of ownership on us, and He put His Spirit in our Hearts as a Deposit—- * GUARANTEEING* what is to come..”

Anybody out there Wanna argue with this? Lol....yeah..... I thought not.....not even “ Bible Low Lighter” is “that” Foolish.....at least I “ hope” not.....

 

[BloodBought 1953]

BB, you do know what will happen to those who ADD to the scriptures don’t you?



Sure I do! You think that I have never read Revelations ?

Speaking of “ adding” , I “ also” know what happens to Religionists like you that “ADD” to Paul’s Gospel Of Grace with their DEAD WORKS and FILTHY RAGS....They become “ Severed from Christ” and “ Fall From Grace”.......Do you recognize your current status before God? You had better get on your knees and pray to God that “ Falling from Grace” is not Tantamount to Damnation....

 

[Michiah-Imla]

this OTHER “Atomic Bomb” That they cant handle—
2Cor 1:22 “ It is GOD who *MAKES* us and You to Stand Firm in Christ...

And yet these who were “sealed” were still vulnerable to this happening:

“But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.” (2 Corinthians 11:3)

The simplicity of the English Bible has already been called into question by @mailmandan and @Eternally Grateful

Speaking of “ adding” , I “ also” know what happens to Religionists like you that “ADD” to Paul’s Gospel Of Grace with their DEAD WORKS and FILTHY RAGS....

“Religionist” like Peter and James?

“And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith…” (2 Peter 1:5)

Why?

“…give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall” (2 Peter 1:10)

“Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.” (James 1:27)

And our works in Christ are not filthy rags:

“Having your conduct honorable among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.” (1 Peter 2:12)

They become “ Severed from Christ” and “ Fall From Grace”......

Yes, those who do these works:

“Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.” (Galatians 4:10)

“For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.” (Galatians 5:3-4)

I bet he is quite the Jack-Ass !

“But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.” (Matthew 12:36-37)

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men…” (2 Corinthians 5:10-11)

 

[mailmandan]

"sin willfully" here in Heb. 10:26 is called by many theologians "the willful sin."

It is not the acts of sinning, it is the willful act of apostasy, willfully denouncing Christ...

Yes, to "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is continuous action, a matter of practice.

No it’s not!

Yes it is!

This willful sinning is expressed elsewhere in scripture:

“For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.” (2 Peter 2:20)

When you are saved you have escaped the corruption in the world:

“Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.” (2 Peter 1:4)

So if you go back to these sins, you’ll be worse off than before you were saved!

Those who are truly born of God have received a new nature, a divine nature. They have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep. The change is more than just cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20. These cleaned up on the outside dogs and pigs in 2 Peter 2:20 were never sheep.

*Compare 2 Peter 1:4 - "partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption - Strongs #5356 that is in the world through lust with 2 Peter 2:20 - with they escaped the pollutions - Strongs #3356 (different Greek word) of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, yet they are again entangled therein, and overcome. *Notice that 2 Peter 2:20 did not mention them being "partakers of the divine nature."

Corruption (Strongs #5356) (to shrivel or wither, spoil , ruin , deprave, corrupt , defile, to destroy by means of corrupting, to spoil as does milk). Corruption - describes decomposition or rotting of an organism and the accompanying stench. The utter depravity of the fallen flesh and the resultant moral decomposition of the world opposed to God is driven by it sinful lusts or evil desires. Internal corruption.

Pollutions/Defilements (Strongs #3393) ("pollutions", "filthy things", "contaminations", "world's filth") describes the state of being tainted or stained by evil and refers to impurity, impure, tainted, defilement, foulness or pollution. Pollutions/Defilement refers to what is on the outside (2 Peter 2:20). But genuine believers have escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust (2 Peter 1:4).

Corruption is deeper than pollutions/defilements on the outside: it is decay on the inside.

Having the knowledge of Jesus Christ does not save a person if there is no heart submission to that knowledge. The latter end is worse than the beginning for these men because rejecting this knowledge will make them more accountable at the judgment. Judas Iscariot is a good example of someone who rejected the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ yet was never saved. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11)

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Those who are truly born of God have received a new nature, a divine nature. They have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep.

So then why do you say that sheep can never stop doing pig and dog things?

 

[mailmandan]

And yet these who were “sealed” were still vulnerable to this happening:

Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. In Ephesians 4:30, we read that we are sealed unto/for the day of redemption.

“But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.” (2 Corinthians 11:3)

The simplicity of the English Bible has already been called into question by @mailmandan and @Eternally Grateful...

In 2 Corinthians 11:3, Paul said simplicity that is in Christ, which is in regards to our devotion to Christ. You "added" the words "simplicity of the English Bible" to the text to create a straw man argument. You are on thin ice in bearing false witness, which is sin. I never said the English Bible is corrupt and cannot be trusted or anything in that regard. I have simply pointed out that the Bible was originally written in Hebrew and Greek then translated into English and at times the original languages bring out a deeper meaning that you may not catch in an English translation. I have already pointed this out to you in 1 John 3:6 and 1 John 3:9, yet instead, you prefer to 'surface read' those verses in the KJV and that's how you arrived at your heretical pet doctrine of 'sinless perfection.' (1 John 1:8-10)

 

[mailmandan]

So then why do you say that sheep can never stop doing pig and dog things?

What are you talking about? A sheep is not a dog or a pig and dog's and pig's are not sheep.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

What are you talking about? A sheep is not a dog or a pig and dog's and pig's are not sheep.

So if you’re born again (into a “sheep”) from the old corrupt man (pig/dog) how is it possible for you to commit sin (do dog/pig things)?

Contradicting the scripture:

“Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin” (1 John 3:9)

 

[mailmandan]

You hit Phil. 2:12 twice but you need to look at the next verse 13.

" For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

It is God who supplies the "will" and the "doing" of His good pleasure. He works it out for you.

"Working out your own salvation with fear and trembling" is plainly not what you are saying.

It is referring to your progressive sanctification. Cooperating with the Holy Spirit by faith to create the Christlikeness in you by His doing through you.

We are saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved. That is what's taking place with the 3 levels of sanctification.

We are saved and in the position of a Child of God.
We are being saved by allowing the Holy Spirit to work through us. Increasing Christlikeness.
We will be saved totally and completely with our glorified bodies at the resurrection.

Look, I don't want to argue. I just wanted to show you how and why I serve Christ the way I do.

Good post! We are saved from the PENALTY of sin when we are justified and also 'set apart/made holy' as a child of God positionally in Christ. Through progressive sanctification we are being saved from the POWER of sin and our final sanctification (glorification) we will be saved from the PRESENCE of sins. Some may refer to this as levels or tenses. Working out our salvation in Philippians 2:12 does refer to 'progressive sanctification.' The apostle Paul said to "work out" and NOT work for our salvation and it is God who works in us both to will and to do for His good pleasure. (vs. 13) Works-salvationists often confuse the 3 tenses of salvation.

When we "work out" at the gym, we exercise to develop our body that we already have and not to get a body. Farmers "work" the land, not in order to get the land, but to develop the land they already have. It's the same with working out our salvation.

The Greek verb rendered "work out" means to continually work to bring something to completion or fruition. We do this by actively pursuing the process of progressive sanctification, which has no bearing on justification. That is, even if we don't live a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life 100% of the time (which we won't) we are still justified by faith in Christ (Romans 5:1). Where justification is a legal declaration that is instantaneous, progressive sanctification is a process.

 

[mailmandan]

So if you’re born again (into a “sheep”) from the old corrupt man (pig/dog) how is it possible for you to commit sin (do dog/pig things)?

Contradicting the scripture:

“Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin” (1 John 3:9)

No contradiction. 1 John 3:9 does not teach your 'surface read' biased interpretation of 'sinless perfection' from your pet English translation - KJV.

The NASB reads - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

The Amplified Bible Classic translation makes it even clearer - No one born (begotten) of God [deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] practices sin, for God’s nature abides in him [His principle of life, the divine sperm, remains permanently within him]; and he cannot practice sinning because he is born (begotten) of God.

You can learn something from Greek scholar AT Robertson.

1 John 3 - Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

When we are born again, we receive a divine nature, but this does not mean that our sinful nature in our flesh no longer exists. The flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other. Although you believe that you have already arrived, we will not reach sinless perfection until we receive our glorified bodies. Sinless perfection remains your achilles heel.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I have been seasoned by the Lord and my trust is only in Him and what he can do,not of myself. I think YOU MISUNDERSTOOD my post but that's ok. God EDIFIES me !

All I can do is be open and honest about what I see. I did originally use the words inadvertent and unintentional. I can’t help it if anyone takes offense at me while having conversation with me. All I can do is make sure I speak respectfully and with an open heart that wants to help anyone struggling. I can’t help how I am perceived. I can just speak as truthfully as I can and guard my own heart.
I know the struggles I’ve had with my trust and I try to help others in theirs. That was my intent. And while I don’t like when someone takes offense at me being open and honest, I can live with it.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

So then why do you say that sheep can never stop doing pig and dog things?

They never can. Except through trust. A leopard can’t change his own spots. But God can.

 

[mailmandan]

Like I said BH, I don't want to argue in the negative sense.

What I will do is show you where Paul used the exact same phrase "with fear and trembling" in 2 Cor. 7:15.

"And his inward affection is more abundant toward you, whilst he remembereth the obedience of you all, how with fear and trembling ye received him."

This is not the fear you are calling it! You will never admit you are wrong so I will leave you with it.

Well said! Prior to my conversion, while still attending the Roman Catholic church several years ago, I basically saw God as a tyrant who couldn't wait to punish me every time I messed up and I had absolutely no assurance of salvation whatsoever. That is an unhealthy fear! Works-salvationists live in fear and bondage to IN-security. As a believer, I now see fearing God as fear of offending God and a righteous awe and respect for Him. (Proverbs 1:7; Psalm 34:9; Isaiah 66:2)

I see God as Abba, Father. Romans 8:15 - For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”

 

[Nancy]

No it’s not. I was trying to get her to tighten up her response. You would have needed to follow our conversation.
If you tell a person, even a person who has received a down payment of the Spirit, that they must now work really hard to overcome their flesh because if they don’t they’ll be thrown into the lake of fire, you have created a number of problems for the person rather than helping them. First, no one who has received His Spirit will ever be thrown into the lake of fire. That’s a fact. They believed and were born again by the Spirit, (if they received the Spirit) and they will never die. That’s settled. Secondly, you have set the person up for possibly years and years of futility as a foolish galatian, trying to finish in the flesh what began by the Spirit. Men do not overcome their flesh by trying really hard. From start to finish it is by the Spirit and by trusting God.
So, I was trying to get her to tighten up her response because the op needed building up of her trust that Jesus spoke true when He said He wouldn’t abandon us. She needed to hear some promises that would build up her trust (edify her) not be told to try harder.

WORD!

 

[WalkInLight]

No it’s not. I was trying to get her to tighten up her response. You would have needed to follow our conversation.
If you tell a person, even a person who has received a down payment of the Spirit, that they must now work really hard to overcome their flesh because if they don’t they’ll be thrown into the lake of fire, you have created a number of problems for the person rather than helping them. First, no one who has received His Spirit will ever be thrown into the lake of fire. That’s a fact. They believed and were born again by the Spirit, (if they received the Spirit) and they will never die. That’s settled. Secondly, you have set the person up for possibly years and years of futility as a foolish galatian, trying to finish in the flesh what began by the Spirit. Men do not overcome their flesh by trying really hard. From start to finish it is by the Spirit and by trusting God.
So, I was trying to get her to tighten up her response because the op needed building up of her trust that Jesus spoke true when He said He wouldn’t abandon us. She needed to hear some promises that would build up her trust (edify her) not be told to try harder.

"born again by the Spirit" - Do we know who truly are born of the Spirit from the outside?
This was the question that even the apostles wondered at.

1. Gentiles anointed with the gifts of the Spirit just as they had been a Pentecost.
2. The dilemma of someone who has tasted the Holy Spirit and then turns away.
3. The phrases about continuing in the faith until the end, proving true our calling
4. Brotherly love making sure our calling
5. Sowing to the Spirit to reap life and to the flesh to reap death.
6. Brothers who stood beside Paul, yet returned to the world
7. Widows who confessed faith yet were led away by desires of the flesh, satan.
8. Revelations, the churches called to be overcomers of the challenges before them or fall

Peter describes things like this

We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands
1 John 2:3

Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.
Eph 1:13-14

The Lord is encouraging us with signs of our reality in Christ, but until that day, only then will everything be revealed.
Judas behaved like all the other apostles yet turned out to be a traitor and not Jesus's friend.

In the eternal we are settled, but in the present we cannot assume anything. In a marriage you give tokens of love and bonding
each day with concern, hugs, kisses, empathy, getting alongside another. You assume the future is set, yet it is only set if the
relationship continues alive and loving.

A side note today, I wondered why I did not like putting things away after a job has been finished.
It struck me, I did not like taking away the joy of the importance of fixing stuff, its show in the tools, and letting go of the
experience and making things go back to normal. We all come to blocks in our relationships, but working through them keeps
them alive. Working through them also proves that the relationship matters deeply above other things, and that matters.

God bless you

 

[WalkInLight]

Well said! Prior to my conversion, while still attending the Roman Catholic church several years ago, I basically saw God as a tyrant who couldn't wait to punish me every time I messed up and I had absolutely no assurance of salvation whatsoever. That is an unhealthy fear! Works-salvationists live in fear and bondage to IN-security. As a believer, I now see fearing God as fear of offending God and a righteous awe and respect for Him. (Proverbs 1:7; Psalm 34:9; Isaiah 66:2)

I see God as Abba, Father. Romans 8:15 - For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”

Hi mailmandan,

I see your point about fear, and what often binds some believers into a list version of approval by God, which is devoid of love, understanding, care, empathy, closeness, meeting loneliness with peace and joy, fear with acceptance.

What has struck me most recently is emotions do not match with words the same way with different individuals. Two people can emotionally be saying the same thing but verbally disagreeing about the way words express this. Jesus did imply that the pharisees did not accept Him because in their hearts they did not love God.

I know a dear sister in the Lord, who will disagree with me over some use of words I use to express a point. The point emotionally is correct but the way it is put in context some would disagree with. I have listened to sermons and part way through thought the preacher was not making this point, so was falling short. At the end when they had put everything in place, I saw their balance.

These forums are very poor at expressing the whole, very good at sound bites.
A simple illustration of this is a man of God, fully grown and mature. As they grow they are not at their destination, they have shortcomings and issues to work through, things to learn. Their destination is in the hands of the Lord and also themselves, yet to suggest either is not important misses the whole.

So if we take chunks out of one another, is that helping us mature in Christ, or harming all for the sake of lost, who will never be found.
The unfortunate conclusions of the false teachers, is they will never be found, because their hearts are shut out of the Kingdom and they believe they know the truth, which stops reality coming to bare.

We have a number of ex-catholics in our church, and they would testify as you have about fear and list following.
What attracts such folk to our fellowship is praising the Lord with a loving heart. We even have some who like the monastic chanting and times of prayer through the day. So what seems to be the common theme is the emotional interpretation of different actions and their intent, not necessarily there content.

God bless you

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Peter describes things like this

We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands
1 John 2:3

This is true. The hang up comes over HOW we come to obey His commands. It’s not by self effort. I tried that for many years. Someone will eventually step on your toes or swerve into your lane and you will see the bitter resentment and angers are still there and you failed and have murdered someone. Until you see it is impossible for men, you will keep up in self effort rather than trust.

You have to come to hate yourself as much as you hate others before you will willingly pick up your cross. Whoever does not hate his life cannot be My disciple.
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

 

[WalkInLight]

This is true. The hang up comes over HOW we come to obey His commands. It’s not by self effort. I tried that for many years. Someone will eventually step on your toes or swerve into your lane and you will see the bitter resentment and angers are still there and you failed and have murdered someone. Until you see it is impossible for men, you will keep up in self effort rather than trust.

I see your point. It also makes me think of something else. It is learnt emotional behaviour patterns and conclusions.
Anger is a survival response to a real threat. It is the fight or flight response, which we all need and have, and which is not murdering someone or a failure but something we literally all need. Resentment is about blaming another for this change of circumstances, so wishing to avoid or be negative towards them. In truth showing more caution towards potentially dangerous situations is an appropriate response, some people are innately irresponsible. One of my children, if they had something in their hand and they got annoyed they would throw it. Simple answer, look at the hands, see the warning signs, and just remove the object they were holding.

Every situation we take responsibility for preparation and our behaviour which we can vary. Jesus said we should be wise as snakes and as innocent as doves.

So in your illustration of driving a car and anger being triggered, you are suggesting perfection is having no response to danger, which is clearly not true. And the emotional response is also allowed to escalate to the level of desiring to kill another. My suggestion is simply the whole understanding of the situation, what is happening and what one can do to prepare for such things is missing.

A driving example of this is someone who comes into my path and I have no room to stop a crash. Do I swerve or crash? You have to think through and prepare for this situation beforehand because there is no thinking time. I will always swerve if it is going to save a life. On a motorway I had a motorcycle rider come off his bike right in front of me. He rolled in such a way he slowed too quickly I was going to hit him, so I swerved. A car behind clipped me, with minor damage, but the man was not killed. Praise the Lord. Preparation matters.

Each social interaction is equally complicated, and how we handle it, prepare for it, and stay encouraging or angry can make it go well or terribly. Jesus calls us to love, to think the best of others, to uplift, to carry each others burdens, to spend time getting to know one another. Lots of preparation, which I am still learning more about doing each day. I hope this can be an encouragement to you,

God bless you

 

[Michiah-Imla]

No contradiction. 1 John 3:9 does not teach your 'surface read' biased interpretation of 'sinless perfection' from your pet English translation - KJV.

What is Jesus teaching here:

“…sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.” (John 5:14)

And what is “surface read” supposed to mean? You love adding stipulations, “practice sin” and now “surface” reading. Have you studied mind control techniques?

In scripture we are told to read the scripture. We aren’t warned on how to read them other than to hear and obey.

“And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.” (Exodus 24:7)

 

[Behold]

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men…” (2 Corinthians 5:10-11)

Try not to always confuse the White Throne JUDGEMENT for Christ rejectors, with the Bema Seat Judgement that is for the Born again.