I’m in a strange place: very conservative, but not Christian

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Wrangler

Well-Known Member
Feb 14, 2021
13,001
4,800
113
55
Shining City on a Hill
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Acting despite not knowing everything is one thing, thinking that you know everything without admitting that you don’t know is another.

No one is doing that.

The religious will never say that they don’t know whether there is a god or not. Instead they have the origin of the universe and what happens after death all figured out already.

And this offends you, because?
 

Wrangler

Well-Known Member
Feb 14, 2021
13,001
4,800
113
55
Shining City on a Hill
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
People disagree on the basics all the time. You would think there are only two genders but half this country believes otherwise.
Oh boy! You're introducing politics now, rather than abstract reasoning to make your case. You're all over the place. :D

My daughter asserted there is a difference between sex and gender. Our adversary is a liar and his 1st goal is to blurr the truth. Playing word games does not change reality.
 

Wrangler

Well-Known Member
Feb 14, 2021
13,001
4,800
113
55
Shining City on a Hill
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
When you look at a woman for example, saying that she is a woman would be partial, not absolute truth.
All truth is absolute.

Changing the frame of reference of what is true, like the woman being a life form, an air breather, etc, does not change the truth that she is a woman. And, in fact, your attempt to change the frame of reference is only itereating the details of what it means to be a women, which includes being a human life form, etc.
 

Wrangler

Well-Known Member
Feb 14, 2021
13,001
4,800
113
55
Shining City on a Hill
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
For example you can’t say the sky is blue as an absolute truth because to someone else it may not be blue. ‘Objective reality’ is a conceptual fantasy.
Completely wrong.

1st, objectective reality is primary over a consciousness to perceive and conceptualize it.

2nd, objective reality does not depend on subjective word games or mental illness.
 

Wrangler

Well-Known Member
Feb 14, 2021
13,001
4,800
113
55
Shining City on a Hill
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You are not the only one who thinks they have the absolute truth.
Nonsense. Most religious and philosphical people hold to absolute truth.

The political Left reject it as does our Adversary. Absolute truth is a fundamental starting point. "In the beginning" informs us there was a beginning, an absolute beginning in our story.
 

Wrangler

Well-Known Member
Feb 14, 2021
13,001
4,800
113
55
Shining City on a Hill
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I am well aware that saying “There are no absolutes” is self contradictory, so when I say that..I say it loosely..as an understanding not as just another absolute truth. It’s the best language can do, eventually it falls apart logically because logic is limited.

Again, completely wrong. And I will not allow you to say it loosely as mystics assert epistemological limits due to logic and language. The reverse is true. Proper language usage and proper use of language are, along with proper definitions, epistemological guardians of falsehood.

You say that logic as limited AS IF that means it is useless. It is axiomatic that everything that exists is limited. I trust you will consider these things.
 

Wrangler

Well-Known Member
Feb 14, 2021
13,001
4,800
113
55
Shining City on a Hill
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Any framework of reality is just a tool to navigate it. The framework itself belongs to reality, reality doesn’t belong to the framework.
Friend, you are confused as postmodernism is confused. Consciousness is not primary over existence, over objective reality.
 

Romanov2488

Active Member
Jul 20, 2022
722
103
28
31
Charlotte
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
Friend, you are confused as postmodernism is confused. Consciousness is not primary over existence, over objective reality.

Completely and utterly false. You are trapped in a conceptual fortress where you have mistaken concepts as being ultimate reality. You have mistaken the map for the territory. The raw sensations or beingness of any object is first order. All of your knowledge about said object is second order. The knowledge of an object is associated with its utility which helps the ego survive. And because knowledge of a particular object is helpful, you mistake that knowledge to be what that object truly is. You have confused the concept with reality. Knowing the concept gives you the feeling of knowing the being of the object but none of it actually tells you what it is. There is a distinction between what you can use an object for and what that object truly is. To most people, it doesn’t matter what the ultimate reality is of something, but what they can USE it for. Then the question of what is that actual object is no longer a valid question, it gets so bad that people will say it’s not even a real question-that it’s just a metaphysical question like “How many angels can fit on a pin?” But it’s not that kind of question because the being of the object is what allows for everything else that you know about it. You get so focused on the utility of the object that you completely forget the being. And then you pretend like everything is fine and go on with life because it seems to work. Conceptual knowledge is a way of avoiding the mystery of the being of anything. There is no actual subject or object, there is only truth, reality. Making a distinction between subjectivity and objectivity is only what the ego does in order to navigate and survive. Why? Because anything objective is seen for its utility only. How does knowing x help me? How will holding this belief make me more comfortable? None of it is about the actual truth.

Axioms are tools, they are not absolute truth. It seems that axioms are your idol. Proper use of language is not an epistemological guardian of falsehood-it does the opposite by creating falsehoods. That is the big illusion that mankind suffers from. It lacks the humility to admit that it doesn’t know a single iota about anything at all. It throws adjectives around such as ‘proper’. Proper according to whom? To you? To your tribe? Your culture? Everyone has their own version of what is ‘proper’.

And I never said logic is useless. I said it’s limited only. It’s useful to the degree of navigating and surviving. As far as absolute truth is concerned, logic falls apart.

You did not answer my question about God, I already answered your A or B question. Since God is omnipotent, can he create a rock he cannot lift?
 

Romanov2488

Active Member
Jul 20, 2022
722
103
28
31
Charlotte
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
Friend, you are confused as postmodernism is confused. Consciousness is not primary over existence, over objective reality.

Without consciousness, we wouldn’t even be able to have this conversation.

Consider the possibility that consciousness is the reality of everything and what we refer to as ‘objective reality’ is the mind’s way of refracting infinite reality into a multiplicity of forms. I figure that deep, deep, down…not knowing is the secret we all know but won’t admit.

Saying a woman is a life form, a human being, etc. are only things about her. No concept can encapsulate reality. Reality is far more profound than any knowledge of it. Conceptualizing anything is purely an activity of the mind, of the ego. It does this in order to help it survive.
 
Last edited:

Romanov2488

Active Member
Jul 20, 2022
722
103
28
31
Charlotte
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
You said that, “It is axiomatic that everything that exists is limited.“ after you said, “And I will not allow you to say it loosely as mystics assert epistemological limits due to logic and language. The reverse is true. Proper language usage and proper use of language are, along with proper definitions, epistemological guardians of falsehood.”

Logic and language are things that exist. It is axiomatic that everything that exists is limited. So logic and language are limited. You are contradicting yourself now.

Since language and definitions are are limited, how can something limited be an epistemological guardian of falsehood? You are idolizing the “proper use of language and proper definitions ” here by calling it an epistemological guardian of falsehood.
 
Last edited:

Romanov2488

Active Member
Jul 20, 2022
722
103
28
31
Charlotte
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
God can do anything he wants to.

If God can do anything he wants to, then he can choose to not be God. He can choose to be you and me. He can choose to be the devil himself. He can give himself a birth and a death. No? How dare you limit God.
 
Last edited:

Romanov2488

Active Member
Jul 20, 2022
722
103
28
31
Charlotte
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
Now that's original! How about not insulting us with old riddles?

Nice pivot from the actual question. Anything to keep the mind safe from its own end by admitting it doesn’t know anything at all. It’s not even a riddle. I’ve been answering questions here but you are running away from mine.

Since God is omnipotent, can he create a rock he cannot lift?

I have seen poor attempts at answering this question by moving the goal posts and redefining omnipotence as only doing what is logically possible. However, God by definition transcends logic.

The trinity itself is already a paradox and self contradictory because god has the ability to be three different beings at once, but still be one at the same time.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Wrangler

Romanov2488

Active Member
Jul 20, 2022
722
103
28
31
Charlotte
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
No one is doing that.



And this offends you, because?

It’s not offending to me, it’s laughable that they act as if they know what happens after death as if someone has come back from the dead to tell us about it. It’s all posturing-the religious, the scientists. They all pretend that they know because they are too afraid to contradict themselves since then that would mean they don’t know anything at all. I admit I contradict myself and for good reason-because I don’t know anything at all. But no, they see me as ‘confused’ because of course, they ‘know better’ which makes it even funnier once their house of cards comes tumbling down and end up having an existential crisis that everything they’ve believed to be the absolute truth was a lie. All the time spent studying the universe, the time spent in school, the attending of the churches, the reading of sacred texts and what do they truly know in the end? Words are not enough to describe how comical it all is.

Mankind is addicted to knowing whereas not knowing is taboo. Most people wake up with a gun to their head, a metaphorical gun to their head. Get the kids to school, feed the kids, get to the doctor, pay the electric bill, please their boss, pay the mortgage, pay the taxes…and as soon as you don’t do it, the gun goes click. Survival doesn’t care about not knowing-you must either act or die (or fail to a lesser extent).
 
Last edited:

Wrangler

Well-Known Member
Feb 14, 2021
13,001
4,800
113
55
Shining City on a Hill
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Without consciousness, we wouldn’t even be able to have this conversation.

Is that absolutely true?

Consider the possibility that consciousness is the reality of everything and what we refer to as ‘objective reality’ is the mind’s way of refracting infinite reality into a multiplicity of forms

Rejected out of hand. The recorder does not create WHAT is being recorded.

Since language and definitions are are limited, how can something limited be an epistemological guardian of falsehood?

I don't understand your implied premise that only something that is unlimited could be an epistemological guardian of falsehood.

I admit I contradict myself and for good reason-because I don’t know anything at all.

  1. Is contradicting yourself absolutely true?
  2. How can you admit contradicting yourself, if you don't know anything?
  3. How could your contradicting yourself be for a good reason UNLESS you know it is a good reason?
You are trapped in a conceptual fortress where you have mistaken concepts as being ultimate reality.

"Ultimate" reality is the buzzword of mystics, who I contemptuously condemn, both religonists and secular post modernist mystics. That is, there is no difference reality and "ultimate" reality.