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I’m in a strange place: very conservative, but not Christian

Discussion in 'Non-Christian General Discussion' started by Romanov2488, Jul 20, 2022.

  1. Romanov2488

    Romanov2488 Active Member

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    Yes, it’s all an epistemological joke and that’s ok. Don’t run away just yet, it’s about to get good.

    Who is the arbiter of the meaning of words?

    If you ask 10 different people in a room to define ‘life’ and you get 10 different answers, why is that? Are they all purposely changing the meaning of words to support their assertions? Are they all confused, hopeless mystics as well?

    The dictionary here disagrees with you on the definition of ‘collection’. You said a collection is a group of like individuals. However here it also says ‘or things’. Be brave my friend, face that ‘reality’!

    16D39C47-93C0-416C-A456-5E554A74572D.jpeg

    I like to collect pens. But I guess I should stop calling it a collection because according to Wrangler a collection is a “group of like individuals not as far as the environment goes.”

    Come on Wrangler, proper use of language and proper definitions remember? Why are you changing the frame of reference to support your assertions of absolute truth? You might hate hearing this but, you are also a walking contradiction. The difference between us is that I can admit it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2022
  2. Romanov2488

    Romanov2488 Active Member

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    Wrangler you also said, “Therefore, many religions have as a starting basic tenet, the destruction of the self, the submission of the ego.“

    There is a lot of ego when you think you know the absolute truth by saying only Jesus is the way and everyone else is wrong. Even if Jesus himself said he is the way, you don’t know if he was being serious or that you could be taking it out of context. Submission of the ego is to surrender your knowledge and realize you don’t know anything at all, absolutely nothing in the end. So far it doesn’t seem like your religion has done that for you.

    You contradict yourself without knowing you do. That is your greatest blindspot my friend.
     
  3. Dropship

    Dropship Well-Known Member

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    It's a simple matter of credentials, and Jesus's are impeccable..:)
    For a start his arrival was foretold multiple times in the Old T, and when he arrived he did his 37 miracles that even David Blaine would be hard pressed to do!
    People took him on board and found that the new bright and breezy mindset he gave them actually WORKED, and to cap it all, every founder of other "paths" is a corpse in a box somewhere but Jesus is not.
    And that'a a bingo! Christianity went on to take over the whole planet..:)

    Rels-2012b.jpg
     
    Wrangler likes this.
  4. Romanov2488

    Romanov2488 Active Member

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    ‘Credentials’ which lack evidence. And Christianity is about to soon take 2nd place as Islam is a close second and the fastest growing. Jesus walked on water, Muhammed split the moon. ‘Witness testimonies’ can confirm he split the moon. Why don’t you believe that instead? It’s the exact same line of thinking, the same type of apologetics used in Christianity.

    One argument that is used a lot by Christians is C.S. Lewis’ trilemma where Jesus was either lord, lunatic, or liar. However, this is a false trilemma which assumes that Jesus was real (not a legend) and that people didn’t misunderstand what Jesus said at the time.

    Islam set to become world's largest religion by 2075, study suggests | Religion | The Guardian
     
  5. Dropship

    Dropship Well-Known Member

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    1- Jesus was seen and heard strutting his stuff by the whole of Israel, that's a lot of eyewitnesses..:)
    "Large crowds from Galilee, the Ten Cities, Jerusalem, Judea and the region across the Jordan followed him" (Matthew 4:25)
    "Jesus went through all the towns and villages" (Matthew 9:35)

    rel-jes-harley.jpg

    And he pulled crowds of over 5000 and 4000 at two gigs alone (Matthew 14:13, Matthew 15:32)
    After his execution when the gospels were written not a single person came forward from the snooty priests and their lackeys to say "Baloney, it never happened" because they knew they'd just be making fools of themselves.
    Even the Koran written some 600 years later dare not deny Jesus was something special- "Allah.. exalted some messengers above others and gave miracles to Jesus the son of Mary and strengthened him with the holy spirit" (Koran 2:253)

    2- If Islam ever replaces Christianity you can call me Mary Poppins..:)

    3- Jesus didn't do walking on water as a publicity stunt, it was done in the dead of night and was accidentally seen by his mates who were making the sea crossing by boat and started freaking out.
    If Mohammed split the moon he made a bad job of it because it looks okay now..:)
     
  6. Wrangler

    Wrangler Well-Known Member

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    Why does there have to be an arbiter? There is nothing magical or mystical about words. They have been defined. Consult your favorite lexicon.

    You deny there is even such a thing as absolute truth. Nevermind what it is applied to.

    Did I say that? Clearly, you have a problem with absolute truth. Jesus did not only say he is the way but he is the life and the truth. Profound.

    If you read and understand what Jesus said there in context, he is talking about salvation. He is not saying following him is the only way. All other roads just lead to death, is all.

    But that is more the meat. You are stuck on prenatal nourishment, not yet even ready for milk. There are absolutes.
     
  7. Wrangler

    Wrangler Well-Known Member

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    Me too. I have several nice fountain pens. :D

    What is in your collection?
     
  8. Romanov2488

    Romanov2488 Active Member

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    Lamy and Pelikan as far as fountain pens go and the rest are ballpoints/rollerballs such as Parker and Cross. The titanium bolt action pens are pretty cool too.

    06259EF6-8152-42DB-9A23-567932516475.jpeg
     
  9. Romanov2488

    Romanov2488 Active Member

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    I have a problem with absolute truth because absolute truth creates problems. First they can’t be proven, second what’s absolute to someone may not be absolute to someone else. Like I’ve mentioned previously, the most rational minds will disagree. They only agree relatively speaking for the sake of communication/objectivity.

    I’m saying that in a way there is an arbiter when it comes to how words are defined. Did words magically appear out of thin air? No, they were invented by man. The dictionary is written by man and it constantly changes and gets updated. The kicker is when man tries to be the arbiter of absolute truth, it also fails miserably.

    If words have such absolute definitions, then why is it that if you ask 10 different people to define ‘life’, you’ll get 10 different definitions of it? You could claim they are all reiterations but you and I both know how much people already disagree on basic words.

    If I say that there are no absolutes, it is a contradiction. But if you claim there are absolutes, you are also contradicting yourself because you can’t prove them. As soon as you dissect and delve into whatever absolute someone claims, contradictions start to surface. The problem is that most people refuse to question an absolute hard enough to the point that it completely falls apart.

    An example is the trinity. God is absolute, but by being a man such as Jesus, he is not. The trinity itself is a contradiction. The Jews do not believe Jesus is God just like the Muslims yet Christians get along with the Jews much more than the Muslims. The Jewish faith literally strikes at the heart of Christianity, refutes it completely. Without Jesus being God, there is no Christianity. Yet Christians and Jews act like siblings around one another, but not so much around Muslims who also believe in the oneness of God.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2022
  10. Dropship

    Dropship Well-Known Member

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    Only Snowflakes and nonchristians can't handle the Truth, I hope you're not one of them mate..;)

    Snowflake-safe-space.jpg
     
  11. Romanov2488

    Romanov2488 Active Member

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    And Wrangler, I dislike the word ‘mystic’ because it’s also a loaded word. To me mysticism exists because ignorance exists. If I tell you a building has an extra floor to it which you don’t know about, you could perceive it as mystical in a sense. Something is mystical to you, because you don’t know of it. I don’t define mysticism as your typical woo woo involving dragons and angels.

    A better word for mysticism would be nondualism. I’m a nondualist at heart, meaning not two. I feel as if Christianity points to nonduality in the sense of Jesus being both man and divine, but the Greeks and Romans have perverted the essential message of Christianity with their dualistic thinking. Man has created a duality between himself and the divine, between creator and creation.

    I view the creator-creation model as both one. I am the source of creation through my perceiving consciousness, but I am also the source of creation since I came out of a womb. I am both within creation and outside of it.
     
  12. Romanov2488

    Romanov2488 Active Member

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    Those who claim that there is absolute Truth are also quick to turn into snowflakes when their idea of Truth falls like a house of cards. Whenever you point your finger at someone, you’ve got 3 pointing back at you.

    Remember what the Bible says about the plank in your eye?

    “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?” Matthew 7:3-5

    You see this in politics easily. I am ashamed of how the conservatives reacted to losing 2020 when they were the ones who more or less coined the idea of calling the democrats snowflakes.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2022
  13. Wrangler

    Wrangler Well-Known Member

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    Cool! It looks smooth. How is the grip?

    I have Monticello, Pilot, Platinum, LaBan, Kawaki Sport, Parker & Waterman (Both retired), and Sailor along with Levenger.
     
  14. Romanov2488

    Romanov2488 Active Member

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    Oh nice, and yes Waterman is another one I have. The grip is something you don’t worry about as much with a fountain pen since it’s water based ink. I’ve always wanted a Sailor-the Japanese make some really good writing instruments due to their precision. I have a few drafting pencils too as a result, using .2-.3mm lead. Most people don’t understand how one can collect pens, they look at it as, “It’s just an overpriced pen” since they’re so used to throwing pens away. I like having something of high quality that’s functional and typically EDC, you get to appreciate the craftsmanship every time you use it. I am also a pocket knife snob as a result. Most people also don’t even know what a fountain pen is and if you hand it to them, they will hold it with the nib backwards.

    All I used throughout university was a Lamy fountain pen, writing cursive only. Particularly this one with the 14k gold nib:

    438A5E07-6A2F-47E8-B9AE-9326E89CC328.jpeg
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2022
  15. Dropship

    Dropship Well-Known Member

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    Jesus has been going strong for 2000 years, some "house of cards"..:)
    Jesus said:- "You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free...Everyone on the side of truth listens to me” (John 8:32,John 18:37)
     
  16. Romanov2488

    Romanov2488 Active Member

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    And Hinduism is 4000 years old. Going by your logic, Hinduism must be the ‘real’ absolute truth, unlike Christianity because hey, it’s twice as old and must therefore be the Truth since it’s still going strong today. Christianity to the recent New Age movement is what Hinduism is to Christianity.

    Classic appeal to tradition, logical fallacy.

    And to take it a step further, if you then claim that Christianity is true because it has many more followers than Hinduism, then that would be the logical fallacy of ‘appeal to popularity’. Since Islam is projected to overtake Christianity in the amount of followers, then Islam would be true according to that fallacious logic.

    If Islam overtakes Christianity in popularity, then I would assume it would be a humbling experience for Christians, but an ego trip for Islam because then many Muslims would fall for the logical fallacy of appeal to popularity as a way to justify that it’s true and garner more followers.

    To an agnostic atheist watching all of this unfold is comical. I guess it’s one of the perks of having a bird’s eye view. I am lost and going to hell in every religion’s eyes. It’s not even critical thinking that’s holding me back from being religious, but the comedy of it all. They all want you to take them seriously. I usually view any demands to take something seriously as a red flag. As if I better get with their program or else and all I want to do is enjoy life instead.

    I am just not a serious person. To me laughter is the only real religion…if it can even be called one.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2022
  17. Dropship

    Dropship Well-Known Member

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    1- The founders of ALL other religions are corpses in boxes and graves somewhere but Jesus is not, spot the difference?..:)
    2- Catholicism is the biggest Christian religion but there are plenty of other christians who regard it as a crock..:)

    rel-Christian religions.jpg

    3- It was Gollum, not Frodo who saved Middle Earth, so who's to say agnostics and atheists don't also figure in God's plan?

    THE ATHEIST CONSERVATIONIST
    rel-ath-cons.jpg

    4- Hang on to your sense of humour mate, I can certainly think of a few christians who need one..:)
     
  18. Romanov2488

    Romanov2488 Active Member

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    Buddha reached enlightenment by realizing there is no death to begin with that he didn’t even need to be resurrected.

    Good point bringing up Catholicism because even though they are the majority, the Protestants which form 37% of all Christians if I’m not mistaken, see the Catholics as heretics and vice versa. It’s as if there are other religions within Christianity, the same dynamics and fallacies playing over and over again which you see at the scale of religions. Christians don’t even get on the same page.

    The funniest thing of all is that I understand where they’re all coming from whilst ultimately disagreeing with them. Catholics mistake me for one of them, Protestants mistake me for one of them, etc. But it is only because I understand them, I know the history and their apologetics. I have listened to arguments from both sides. A Catholic for example will assume I’m a Catholic simply because I tell him that Protestants misunderstand the praying through the saints and Mary as praying to them instead. I can get any Protestant to agree with me if I mention the inquisition and indulgences. The problem is that in the end these people assume I must already be searching for God in a way because I’ve done research and studied their beliefs. They don’t understand that they are strictly being observed and studied.

    Atheists are typically more educated when it comes to religion than other groups and a study even backs it up: Survey: Atheists, Agnostics Know More About Religion Than Religious

    All it takes is for one to look at all religions as objects of study and observation, as a social phenomenon. Then it becomes nearly impossible to subscribe to religious dogma. Atheists have their dogma too don’t get me wrong, it’s a pitfall for mankind.

    I would say that belief in a God is actually pretty natural and I scoff when atheists say everyone was born an atheist initially. But just because it’s natural, does not make it true. The majority of religious folks go along with their upbrinding, they are your average folks who won’t question things too much. What stumps me the most is when I run into another deep thinker, one who has an aptitude for critical thinking and yet chooses to hold a religious belief. In my eyes such a person has succumbed to filling in the gap of not knowing.

    The ultimate kicker is that when such a person who claims they know an absolute truth, they simultaneously hold the belief that they don’t know everything, that they are fallible…born in sin. So how can one who is born in sin, know ‘The ultimate truth’?
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2022
  19. Wrangler

    Wrangler Well-Known Member

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    My Sailor's have a beautifully soft nib. Gives great flex. A real joy to write with.

    OMG! Me too. I match my pocket knives with my shirt.
     
  20. Romanov2488

    Romanov2488 Active Member

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    Wrangler, question for you. You say there is an absolute truth and many others who also claim the same, also claim they are fallible and ‘less’ than God. If God is the absolute, how can something relative know God? Only the absolute can know the absolute.

    How can form know the formless? How can the finite know the infinite? If we are all born in sin, then for lack of a better word, we are all born retarded. Why should we listen to the fallible regarding the infallible? When Jesus was on the cross, he clearly said, “Forgive them, for they do not know.” We clearly do not know according to Jesus, so why is someone like me a bad guy for admitting that I do not know? I am only agreeing with Jesus when I say that.

    You may say that the Bible is infallible, but we aren’t. It is the fallible who says that the Bible is infallible. Even if you say Jesus is infallible and he said so, it would still be coming from you, a fallible being. Why would I trust what a fallible being says about an infallible being?

    By saying that God is the absolute and that mankind is not, it is a contradiction of sorts when mankind goes around acting as if they know the absolute. Since we are born in sin, we are not omniscient, we technically do not know anything. How can mankind possibly know the absolute when by the same token it claims that it is born in sin-not sinful, but literally broken from birth.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2022
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