22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[CadyandZoe]

No, the reason you're saying that is only because of doctrinal bias. And your lack of willingness to acknowledge what the word "ARE" means. It's not a word used to refer to the future. It's clearly present tense. You deny even the most obvious things spelled out in scripture. You interpret everything with extreme doctrinal bias and you don't seem to have any objectivity at all.

You sound like a man who is unable to give reasons for what you believe.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Where is that taught in scripture? If you try to say Romans 11:25-26, then explain to me why Paul would teach that there after previously saying that he hoped some of them (his fellow Israelites) could be saved (Romans 11:14? He went from saying that to saying all of them would be saved a few verses later? Of course not. That would be ridiculous. But, of course, you don't consider things like this.

Romans 11:11 is answering a different question than Romans 11:1.

Romans 11:1
Here Paul argues that God is not finished with his kinsmen. Citing a passage from 1 Kings 19, He argues that God has always reserved for himself a remnant. He includes himself as a case in point. Speaking of God's promise to save individual people, Paul answers in the affirmative. Yes, God is still saving individuals from among the twelve tribes. God has not rejected the Hebrew people.

Romans 11:11
Here Paul answers a new question with regard to the nation of Israel taken as a whole. Granting that God has not rejected individuals from the twelve tribes, what about the nation itself? Did the nation fall to its destruction? Did God decide to abandon the Hebrews to live among the peoples of the earth forever? Paul argues that although his nation transgressed, this transgression did not result in their destruction.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Only the chosen remnant elect Jew will be saved, the rest are blinded

Romans 11:7KJV
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Yes, of course. But in the end, Israel will be populated exclusively with the elect.

Why, is that a problem?

 

[CadyandZoe]

No type involved.

You've told us in post 1740 that the serpent is Satan.

So when Satan entered Judas, the serpent entered Judas, because you've told us that the serpent is Satan.

Luke 22:3
Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.

Which applying your interpretation says:

Then entered the serpent into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.

How did the serpent enter Judas? Did he bore some kind of hole in him? Of use one of Judas's orfices? Which one?

Get to the point.

 

[Phoneman777]

The simple fact is that Amillennialism doesn't account of the coming, Biblically prophesied period of a dark, empty, desolate, silent planet devoid of life - because, according to Amill:

• Jesus will come and perpetually outshine the Sun (no darkness)
• His name will be continually praised (no silence)
• habitation will continue unceasingly (no emptiness)
• angels and mankind will constantly be on Earth (no absence of man)

Premillennialism perfectly accounts for this period:

• Jesus at the Second Coming will raise the righteous dead in the Resurrection of the Just
• The Wicked all drop dead at the brightness of His coming
• The righteous leave with Jesus and return to heaven to "rule and reign" there for 1,000 years
• The Wicked lie on the ground and remain there until the Resurrection of the Damned
• The 1,000 year Millennium separates both Resurrections (Revelation 20:4-5 KJV)
• At the end of the 1,000 years, the heavenly city is transported to Earth
• As it touches down, the Wicked are called forth from their graves and the period of a dark, silent, desolate, empty, destroyed planet devoid of all life comes to an end as Jesus begins the work of the final destruction of the Wicked and the Re-Creation of the planet which for the first time will be seen right before human eyes.

Any questions?

 

[Truth7t7]

Yes, of course. But in the end, Israel will be populated exclusively with the elect.

Why, is that a problem?

Immediately after the tribulation, Jesus Christ returns in fire and final judgment, dissolving this earth by fire (The End)

 

[WPM]

So

Immediately after the tribulation, Jesus Christ returns in fire and final judgment, dissolving this earth by fire (The End)

So, who populates your supposed future millennium?

 

[WPM]

You sound like a man who is unable to give reasons for what you believe.

It is actually you that has avoided post after post, argument after argument and Scripture after Scripture on this thread. SJ has been very thorough in his posts.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Immediately after the tribulation, Jesus Christ returns in fire and final judgment, dissolving this earth by fire (The End)

In my view, the earth is burned up but the planet remains. Right?

 

[CadyandZoe]

It is actually you that has avoided post after post, argument after argument and Scripture after Scripture on this thread. SJ has been very thorough in his posts.

I don't think so. If I avoided posts, you wouldn't find any of my posts in this thread right? Use logic.
I entered this thread because I disagreed with your arguments. I answered your arguments. Some of your arguments were based on faulty assumptions, I challenged those assumptions; some of them were based on misconstrued passages; I gave the proper interpretation of those passages. Some of your arguments were directed at people rather than ideas. I challenged those also.

Paul, as someone else here argued, Amillennialism makes no sense of the gospel or the prophetic picture.

 

[WPM]

Paul, as someone else here argued, Amillennialism makes no sense of the gospel or the prophetic picture.

That is frankly ridiculous. Those who are indoctrinated in Premil and unwilling to be open to what the Scripture teaches may think that. But most Amils on these boards are ex-Premils who recognized the error of the Premil position and its severe lack of corroboration. It also contradicts multiple Scriptures that teach a climactic coming of the Lord.

Matthew 12:22-29, Mark 3:11, 23-27, Luke 10:18-19, Luke 11:20-22, John 12:31-33 Colossians 2:13-15, Hebrews 2:14-15, I John 3:8, Revelation 9:1-11 and Revelation 20:2 prove Satan was bound, defeated, incapacitated, divested of power, disarmed, brought to naught, undone, stripped and spiritually imprisoned through Christ's sinless life, atoning death and triumphant resurrection. Colossians 2:15 tells us: “having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.” Satan has not been rendered immobile or inoperative but is limited in his power, kingship and influence by being defeated on the cross. He is like a dog on a chain. He is shackled.

Other Scripture shows the reigning of the dead in Christ now during the intra-Advent period (Revelation 20:4). See also Hebrews 12:18, 22-23, Revelation 6:9-10, 7:9-17, 15:1-3.

Christ appears with His holy angels (Matthew 13:41-43, 49 16:27 24:29-31 25:31-32, Mark 13:25-27, Luke 9:26, Revelation 14:14-20) and the New Jerusalem (John 14:1-3, Hebrews 11:8-10, 13-16, 13:14. Revelation 3:11-12, 21:1-4).

There is a general resurrection/judgment (singular) of all mankind at the coming of Christ (Matthew 10:15, 12:36, 16:27, 25:31-46, John 5:21-30, 6:39-44, 54, 10:42, 11:21-27, 12:48, 17:30-32, 24:15, Acts 10:42, 17:30-31, Romans 2:4-8, 14:10-12, 1 Corinthians 3:6-8, 11-15, 1 Corinthians 4:5, 2 Corinthians 5:10, 2 Timothy 4:1-8, 2 Thessalonians 1:5-8, 1 Timothy 5:24, Hebrews 9:27, 10:27, 2 Peter 2:9, 3:7, 1 Peter 4:1-5, 1 John 4:17, and Revelation 19:11, 20:11-15, 22:12).

Satan cast into the Lake of Fire (Isaiah 26:19, II Thessalonians 2:1-9 Revelation 20:10). This occurs before the heaven and earth pass away in Revelation 20.

There is a climactic conflagration (Job 14:12-14, Isaiah 13:9-11, Isaiah 34:1-4, 8, Isaiah 65:17-21, Isaiah 66:22-24, Joel 2:3, Joel 2:10-11, Malachi 4:1-3, Matthew 24:29-30, Matthew 24:35-44, Mark 13:24-26, Luke 21:25-27, Romans 8:18-23, 1 Corinthians 15:23-24, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-13, Hebrews 1:10-12, Revelation 6:13-17, Revelation 16:15-20, Revelation 19:11-16 and Revelation 20:11-15).

Perfection arrives with the age to come (Luke 20:27-36, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55, 2 Peter 3:3-13 Philippians 3:20-21, 1 Peter 4:3-7, Hebrews 1:10-12 and Revelation 20:11-15, 21:1-5).

The age to come possesses no mortals. The wicked are destroyed at His appearing (2 Samuel 22:9, Job 41:20-21, Psalm 18:7-8, 37:9-11, 50:1-6, 68:1-3, 97:3-5, Isaiah 11:4-5, 13:9, 30:33, 66:15-17, Joel 2:1-3, 2:10-11, Nahum 1:1, 5-6, Malachi 4:1, Luke 17:26-30, 20:34-36, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 6:9, 13:8-13, 15:50-55, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3, II Thessalonians 1:4-10, Revelation 16:15-21, 19:11-18, Revelation 21-22).

1 Corinthians 13:12, Ephesians 4:13 and Revelation 10:5-7 show that the curtain coming down on the mystery of God, thus confirming we are at the end of time and entering into eternity when all will finally be revealed.

This is a water-tight argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

 

[Timtofly]

That is frankly ridiculous. Those who are indoctrinated in Premil and unwilling to be open to what the Scripture teaches may think that. But most Amils on these boards are ex-Premils who recognized the error of the Premil position and its severe lack of corroboration. It also contradicts multiple Scriptures that teach a climactic coming of the Lord.

Matthew 12:22-29, Mark 3:11, 23-27, Luke 10:18-19, Luke 11:20-22, John 12:31-33 Colossians 2:13-15, Hebrews 2:14-15, I John 3:8, Revelation 9:1-11 and Revelation 20:2 prove Satan was bound, defeated, incapacitated, divested of power, disarmed, brought to naught, undone, stripped and spiritually imprisoned through Christ's sinless life, atoning death and triumphant resurrection. Colossians 2:15 tells us: “having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.” Satan has not been rendered immobile or inoperative but is limited in his power, kingship and influence by being defeated on the cross. He is like a dog on a chain. He is shackled.

Other Scripture shows the reigning of the dead in Christ now during the intra-Advent period (Revelation 20:4). See also Hebrews 12:18, 22-23, Revelation 6:9-10, 7:9-17, 15:1-3.

Christ appears with His holy angels (Matthew 13:41-43, 49 16:27 24:29-31 25:31-32, Mark 13:25-27, Luke 9:26, Revelation 14:14-20) and the New Jerusalem (John 14:1-3, Hebrews 11:8-10, 13-16, 13:14. Revelation 3:11-12, 21:1-4).

There is a general resurrection/judgment (singular) of all mankind at the coming of Christ (Matthew 10:15, 12:36, 16:27, 25:31-46, John 5:21-30, 6:39-44, 54, 10:42, 11:21-27, 12:48, 17:30-32, 24:15, Acts 10:42, 17:30-31, Romans 2:4-8, 14:10-12, 1 Corinthians 3:6-8, 11-15, 1 Corinthians 4:5, 2 Corinthians 5:10, 2 Timothy 4:1-8, 2 Thessalonians 1:5-8, 1 Timothy 5:24, Hebrews 9:27, 10:27, 2 Peter 2:9, 3:7, 1 Peter 4:1-5, 1 John 4:17, and Revelation 19:11, 20:11-15, 22:12).

Satan cast into the Lake of Fire (Isaiah 26:19, II Thessalonians 2:1-9 Revelation 20:10). This occurs before the heaven and earth pass away in Revelation 20.

There is a climactic conflagration (Job 14:12-14, Isaiah 13:9-11, Isaiah 34:1-4, 8, Isaiah 65:17-21, Isaiah 66:22-24, Joel 2:3, Joel 2:10-11, Malachi 4:1-3, Matthew 24:29-30, Matthew 24:35-44, Mark 13:24-26, Luke 21:25-27, Romans 8:18-23, 1 Corinthians 15:23-24, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-13, Hebrews 1:10-12, Revelation 6:13-17, Revelation 16:15-20, Revelation 19:11-16 and Revelation 20:11-15).

Perfection arrives with the age to come (Luke 20:27-36, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55, 2 Peter 3:3-13 Philippians 3:20-21, 1 Peter 4:3-7, Hebrews 1:10-12 and Revelation 20:11-15, 21:1-5).

The age to come possesses no mortals. The wicked are destroyed at His appearing (2 Samuel 22:9, Job 41:20-21, Psalm 18:7-8, 37:9-11, 50:1-6, 68:1-3, 97:3-5, Isaiah 11:4-5, 13:9, 30:33, 66:15-17, Joel 2:1-3, 2:10-11, Nahum 1:1, 5-6, Malachi 4:1, Luke 17:26-30, 20:34-36, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 6:9, 13:8-13, 15:50-55, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3, II Thessalonians 1:4-10, Revelation 16:15-21, 19:11-18, Revelation 21-22).

1 Corinthians 13:12, Ephesians 4:13 and Revelation 10:5-7 show that the curtain coming down on the mystery of God, thus confirming we are at the end of time and entering into eternity when all will finally be revealed.

This is a water-tight argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

And yet none of this post fits into those 22 reasons in the OP. Probably should have started with that instead of waiting until post #1811.

You keep saying eternity. Every new day we enter into eternity, if you keep that logic you are insinuating. Every day is a new day. Every day time is up, and we start the process all over again.

Eternity as presented in Scripture is not what is currently defined by most of Christiandom. Eternity is not a new creation. Even you point out the end of time, and that time is not relative to God, as God is outside of time. Eternity is the condition of God outside of creation. Nothing created can be God, outside of creation.

Perhaps you can correct pre-mill, after you address some of your own terms used?

Water tight? That would have described Noah's ark. Are your points fire proof? Will they be burned up at the Second Coming?

 

[covenantee]

Get to the point.

The point was got to. Sorry that you missed it.

 

[covenantee]

Race is not the sole criteria for ethnicity, which also includes common history, language, culture, religion, mores, taboos, and commonly accepted social dynamics. God made a promise to the nation of Israel, which shared a common history with God, in what the Bible describes as a marriage relationship, she had a covenant relationship with him based on the law of Moses, which not only prescribed morality and ethics, it also prescribed holidays, mores, and cultural practices.

And it isn't a matter of "if" but "when". She will not abide in unbelief. She will come to saving faith.

God's promises to Israel are fulfilled in Christ, and in those who are in Christ i.e. His Church.

God's sole criteria are faithfulness and obedience.

Nothing else.

 

[Rich R]

Jesus returns in fire and final judgment, dissolving this earth by fire (The End)

There are actually 2 kingdoms mentioned in Revelation. There is the millennial kingdom in chapter 19 & 20. This one is absolutely on the earth. It will last 1,000 years (Rev 20:4). The other one is the everlasting kingdom and that one will be on a new earth (Revelation 21:1-2, New Jerusalem "comes down"). As you said, the old earth will be destroyed once and for all and a new one created. All God wants to do is get back to the Garden of Eden which is on the earth.

 

[CadyandZoe]

God's promises to Israel are fulfilled in Christ, and in those who are in Christ i.e. His Church.

God's sole criteria are faithfulness and obedience.

Nothing else.

Negative. Paul argues in the book of Galatians that salvation is based on a promise God made to Abraham. We are not saved based on a promise made to Israel. And while it can be said that the promise made to Israel is fulfilled in Christ, we can not say that Gentiles have replaced Israel.

God is not only going to keep his promise to Abraham, he is also going to keep his promise to Israel.

Let me be specific. God intends to restore his holy name by bringing the Hebrew people back to the land; remove their hearts of stone and give them a heart of flesh; clean them up and take away idolatry; pour out his spirit on them; and restore their fortunes, i.e. good children, good crops, good wives, etc.

This promise only makes sense in the context of the Hebrew experience.

 

[CadyandZoe]

That is frankly ridiculous. Those who are indoctrinated in Premil and unwilling to be open to what the Scripture teaches may think that. But most Amils on these boards are ex-Premils who recognized the error of the Premil position and its severe lack of corroboration. It also contradicts multiple Scriptures that teach a climactic coming of the Lord.

Ever notice that I don't use trigger words like "indoctrinated"?

Satan is not bound. Reference 1 Peter 5:8

The rest of your assertions are unsupported by the verses you cited.

 

[WPM]

Ever notice that I don't use trigger words like "indoctrinated"?

Satan is not bound. Reference 1 Peter 5:8

The rest of your assertions are unsupported by the verses you cited.

No. You said: Amillennialism makes no sense of the gospel or the prophetic picture.

How do you think that comes across?

 

[covenantee]

Negative. Paul argues in the book of Galatians that salvation is based on a promise God made to Abraham. We are not saved based on a promise made to Israel. And while it can be said that the promise made to Israel is fulfilled in Christ, we can not say that Gentiles have replaced Israel.

God is not only going to keep his promise to Abraham, he is also going to keep his promise to Israel.

Let me be specific. God intends to restore his holy name by bringing the Hebrew people back to the land; remove their hearts of stone and give them a heart of flesh; clean them up and take away idolatry; pour out his spirit on them; and restore their fortunes, i.e. good children, good crops, good wives, etc.

This promise only makes sense in the context of the Hebrew experience.

God's promise is to "all Israel". (Romans 9:6-8; Romans 11:26)

God's promise is not to "of Israel". (Romans 9:6-8)

 

[CadyandZoe]

No. You said: Amillennialism makes no sense of the gospel or the prophetic picture.

How do you think that comes across?

I intended to insert something about a particular doctrine. There are no trigger words in my statement.