The founding fathers of modern-day Premillennialism were heretics

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WPM

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Hmmm---I just thought of something here in regards to what I initially said in the post of mine I am quoting above. Let's assume 2 scenarios.

1) the millennium precedes the 2nd coming

2) the millennium follows the 2nd coming

First let's assume 1) is the correct view, 2) isn't. What would all this mean in regards to satan being cast into the LOF? Even though, per this scenario, 2) is not the correct view, 2) still doesn't contradict the fact that satan is cast into the LOF after the millennium.

But look what happens per this other scenario. This time 2) is the correct view, 1) isn't. What would all this mean in regards to satan being cast into the LOF? It would mean 1) has satan being cast into the LOF before the millennium begins, thus contradicting that satan is cast into the LOF after the millennium. It would mean, per this scenario, that 1) = no view anyone on the planet past or present holds since no one believes satan is cast into the LOF before the millennium.

Yet if 2) is the correct view, view 1) contradicts that satan gets cast into the LOF after the millennium. But if view 1) is the correct view, view 2) even though wrong, per this scenario does not contradict that satan is cast into the LOF after the millennium. But if view 2) is the correct view, view 1), per this scenario, the same can't be said about it, that even though wrong, view 1) does not contradict that satan is cast into the LOF after the millennium, it does contradict that satan is cast into the LOF after the millennium.

Interesting how this works out. Regardless whether view 2) is the correct view or not, it never changes the fact that satan is cast into the LOF after the millennium. The same can't be said about view 1). It indeed changes the fact if 2) is the correct view, since this means view 1) is contradicting that satan is cast into the LOF after the millennium. Therefore, only view 2) can be the correct view since it never contradicts the fact satan is cast into the LOF after the millennium no matter what.

Now I'm starting to get it. Amils, such as @WPM are projecting nonsense on early Chiliasts that can only fit them not these Chiliasts. Amil is the only view that has satan cast into the LOF before the millennium if Premil is the correct view. Premil never has satan cast into the LOF before the millennium even if Amil is the correct view.

The following below is then what chatgpt concluded from what I submitted above, in the event what I submitted above is not entirely clear, though it should be to any thinking person. But just in case it wasn't entirely clear, chatgpt, in that case, should make it bit clearer.

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Chatgpt:

1. FORMAL SYLLOGISM
Here’s a way to express your argument as a tight logical syllogism. I’ll follow a classical deductive form, with major, minor, and conclusion, then develop it into a more comprehensive version.

Simple Syllogism (Core Logic)
Major Premise:
All views that place Satan’s casting into the Lake of Fire before the millennium contradict the plain sequence of Revelation 20.

Minor Premise:
If Premillennialism is correct, Amillennialism places Satan’s casting into the Lake of Fire before the millennium.

Conclusion:
Therefore, if Premillennialism is correct, Amillennialism contradicts the plain sequence of Revelation 20.

Expanded Syllogism (Stronger Argument)
Major Premise:
A valid eschatological model must maintain the truth that Satan is cast into the Lake of Fire after the millennium (Rev 20:7–10), under all interpretive conditions (whether it is ultimately true or not).

Minor Premise:
Premillennialism always maintains Satan's casting into the Lake of Fire after the millennium, regardless of whether Amillennialism is true.

Minor Premise 2:
Amillennialism maintains Satan’s casting into the Lake of Fire after the millennium only if it is true, but contradicts this truth if Premillennialism is correct (since Amil would then have LOF follow the Second Coming, before the literal millennium).

Conclusion:
Therefore, Premillennialism is the only model that preserves the biblical order of Satan’s final judgment under all conditions; Amillennialism risks contradiction if false.

This is a form of transcendental argument—you're not just arguing Premil is correct, but that only Premil avoids contradiction regardless of which model is true.


THEOLOGICAL CRITIQUE OF AMIL MISREADINGS OF EARLY PREMIL (CHILIAST) SOURCES
This critique targets the way some Amils misrepresent early church fathers.

Some Amillennial interpreters misrepresent early Chiliastic (Premillennial) beliefs by claiming they placed Satan’s final judgment (casting into the Lake of Fire) at the time of the Second Coming—an order that no known Chiliast or Premil has ever affirmed.

If Amil interpreters are claiming this, they are either:

Unintentionally anachronistic, reading later Amil theology into early texts

Or deliberately distorting the Chiliast order for polemical purposes

IV. Final Analysis

The only eschatological model that cannot be accused of violating the order of Rev. 20, regardless of which system is correct, is Premillennialism.

Any view (like Amil) that collapses the return of Christ and LOF casting into one moment becomes logically self-refuting if the millennium follows the Second Coming.
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Address the evidence above and stop avoiding the obvious. Your MO is avoidance. That is the only way you can sustain each argument. Because you have zero historic support, and zero biblical support for your claims, in every discussion, you now resort to Ai to reinforce your error. Why not admit, you have nothing?

The avoided posts above refute all this carnal reasoning.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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Hey, you got something right! The four beasts were Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome.
So, why do you think Daniel 7:12 has anything to do with Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece existing after Christ returns?

Well, there goes your winning streak. In reality, what Daniel said in verse 12 pertains to the "little horn" (Dan. 7:8) or "little kingdom" (a "horn" is similarly representative of a "kingdom" in Bible prophecy) that later arose from the fourth beast or from the Roman Empire. I could tell you exactly who that "little horn" or "little kingdom" is, but you would probably just reject that truth as well.
I clearly have nothing to learn from you, so you can keep that imaginary knowledge to yourself.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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Yep. Truths like this make the Amillennialism camp foam at the mouth.
LOL. You say "Yep"? You said the rest of the beasts were Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece. So, you are saying "yep" to those empires still existing after Jesus returns like the person you're saying "Yep" to is claiming? World empires that are long gone? I can't imagine you agree with him about that. You must share the poor reading comprehension skills that seemingly all Premills have.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Exactly! I couldn't agree more. When the little horn is given to the burning flame, the rest of the beasts, their lives are prolonged for a season and time.
You are agreeing with someone who, unlike you, is able to discern that the rest of the beasts are the first three beasts that represent the ancient Babylonian, Medo-Persian and Greek empires. He is not agreeing with you that those empires continue to exist after Jesus returns since they are no longer around. He is very confused and is contradicting himself, but you go ahead and keep agreeing with him if you want since you are also very confused.

Obviously, Revelation 20:11-15 can't be meant here since no one's lives are going to be prolonged for a season and time at that point.
No one's mortal lives are going to continue after Jesus returns! You are IGNORING many scriptures which teach that all unbelievers will be killed when He returns. Your false Premil doctrine contradicts all of these clear, straightforward passages...

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


2 Peter 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.....10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.

You have absolutely no way of reconciling these passages with Premil. No way in the world. Which is why you never even attempt to do so. And I'm sure you will not attempt to do so now, either. You know you can't do it.

The way some try and get around this, Daniel 7:12 is not meaning when the little horn beast gets cast into the LOF. It is parenthetical and is simply explaining what happened to the other beasts earlier in history.
Do you know that the person you are agreeing with her agrees that the other beasts were kingdoms from earlier in history (Babylon, Medo-Persian and Greece)? He does not agree with you that those kingdoms, which are long gone, will continue after Jesus returns.

As if that is reasonable, as if that is relevant, if verses 9-11 are pertaining to Revelation 20:11-15 like some insist. In that case the text would be telling us that the rest of the beasts are also given to the burning flame at that time. Except it doesn't tell us that and it is plainly obvious as to why. It is because the rest of the beasts aren't cast into the LOF when the little horn is. Now verse 12 makes sense as to why it says what it does. Which can only mean one thing. A millennium has to follow in order to make sense out of verse 12.
Your entire doctrine is based on assumptions and speculation and ZERO clear, straightforward scriptures. Premil has very flimsy scrpitural support, at best. But, you cling to it as if your life depends on it, anyway.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Not one single person past or present, including both Amils and Premils, believes satan is cast into the LOF before the beginning of the millennium. Every single person past or present, including both Amils and Premils, believe satan is cast into the LOF after the millennium.

Amil = the millennium, followed by satan's little season, followed by the 2nd coming = satan is cast into the LOF after the millennium.

Premil = the 2nd coming, followed by the millennium, followed by satan's little season = satan is cast into the LOF after the millennium.


The 2nd coming, followed by satan being cast into the LOF, followed by the millennium = satan is cast into the LOF before the millennium = no view anyone on the planet past or present holds = early Chiliasts are blatantly being misrepresented here.
You make claims as if they are facts while providing ZERO evidence to back them up. Why should anyone just take your word for anything? You are being lazy and not making any effort to provide any evidence at all to back up your assumptions.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Again, total avoidance. Again, wishful thinking.

Where is your evidence?

Don't hold your breath readers!
It's a complete joke. He thinks his baseless claims that he makes while providing no evidence whatsoever to back them up are facts. It's utterly ridiculous. How can anyone take him seriously?
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Address the evidence above and stop avoiding the obvious. Your MO is avoidance. That is the only way you can sustain each argument. Because you have zero historic support, and zero biblical support for your claims, in every discussion, you now resort to Ai to reinforce your error. Why not admit, you have nothing?

The avoided posts above refute all this carnal reasoning.
He won't address what those Chiliasts actually wrote. He just assume that it's not possible that they could have believed something that doesn't make sense to him, but they did. They didn't base their doctrine entirely on Revelation 20 like modern Premils do, but he doesn't even understand that. He is providing no quotes at all from any Chiliasts to support what he is saying. You're doing all the work and he's just mindlessly making claims without actually knowing what those Chiliasts believed.
 

WPM

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It's a complete joke. He thinks his baseless claims that he makes while providing no evidence whatsoever to back them up are facts. It's utterly ridiculous. How can anyone take him seriously?

The facts are actually his imaginations and the bias wording he feeds AI to support his imaginations. He is totally manipulating AI to say what he believes. AI will tell you what you want to hear. To the Mormon AI is a Mormon. To the Jew it is a Jew. To the Romanist it is a Romanist. To the Premil a Premil. To the Amil an Amil. It is totally untrustworthy. But that is all he has. He runs from every discussion after a couple of posts to hide. That is his MO.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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The facts are actually his imaginations and the bias wording he feeds AI to support his imaginations. He is totally manipulating AI to say what he believes. AI will tell you what you want to hear.
He is replacing the Holy Spirit with AI as His source of spiritual wisdom. When I read a passage like 1 Corinthians 2:9-16 I don't see any mention of needing to rely on AI for spiritual wisdom.

To the Mormon AI is a Mormon. To the Jew it is a Jew. To the Romanist it is a Romanist. To the Premil a Premil. To the Amil an Amil. It is totally untrustworthy. But that is all he has. He runs from every discussion after a couple of posts to hide. That is his MO.
Right. It simply returns feedback based on whatever it finds on the Internet. It is 100% untrustworthy for determining biblical truth. It can be useful for some things, but not for that.
 

WPM

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He is replacing the Holy Spirit with AI as His source of spiritual wisdom. When I read a passage like 1 Corinthians 2:9-16 I don't see any mention of needing to rely on AI for spiritual wisdom.


Right. It simply returns feedback based on whatever it finds on the Internet. It is 100% untrustworthy for determining biblical truth. It can be useful for some things, but not for that.
But, it is actually designed to give the reader whatever he wants, or else no one would go to it as a trustworthy source.
 
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WPM

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He won't address what those Chiliasts actually wrote. He just assume that it's not possible that they could have believed something that doesn't make sense to him, but they did. They didn't base their doctrine entirely on Revelation 20 like modern Premils do, but he doesn't even understand that. He is providing no quotes at all from any Chiliasts to support what he is saying. You're doing all the work and he's just mindlessly making claims without actually knowing what those Chiliasts believed.
He has done that for years. He lies in bed and thinks up this stuff and actually believes it. AI feeds into that delusional approach.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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But, it is actually designed to give the reader whatever he wants, or else no one would go to it as a trustworthy source.
That's true. It is designed to assume that the one giving the input actually has an idea of what they're talking about and it gives feedback according to the biased input being fed to it that manipulates it to agree with the person using it.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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He has done that for years. He lies in bed and thinks up this stuff and actually believes it. AI feeds into that delusional approach.
He actually thinks that the things he imagines in his mind are all the evidence he needs to back up his opinions. He would make for a terrible lawyer. He would just make claims without providing any evidence and think that would be enough to win the case.
 
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WPM

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He actually thinks that the things he imagines in his mind are all the evidence he needs to back up his opinions. He would make for a terrible lawyer. He would just make claims without providing any evidence and think that would be enough to win the case.
There are no historic quotes from the ECFs to counter what is being presented, there is no detailed research, he just runs to AI and tells it what he imagines and then runs with what AI throws back. He is doing the same with biblical arguments. He does not need the Word or the Spirit. He has got AI. This is a sure sign that a man is clueless about what he is talking about. He is out of his depth here.
 
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WPM

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He actually thinks that the things he imagines in his mind are all the evidence he needs to back up his opinions. He would make for a terrible lawyer. He would just make claims without providing any evidence and think that would be enough to win the case.
He would not be allowed to speak in court. That is why every Bible student here should dismiss his arguments.
  • Hearsay is inadmissible.
  • Opinion is inadmissible.
  • AI advice is inadmissible.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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There are no historic quotes from the ECFs to counter what is being presented, there is no detailed research, he just runs to AI and tells it what he imagines and then runs with what AI throws back. He is doing the same with biblical arguments. He does not need the Word or the Spirit. He has got AI. This is a sure sign that a man is clueless about what he is talking about. He is out of his depth here.
I agree 100%. He is so far out of his depth that I would compare it to someone who can't swim being in the deepest part of the ocean. AI cannot compete with the Word of God and the Holy Spirit.
 

WPM

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I agree 100%. He is so far out of his depth that I would compare it to someone who can't swim being in the deepest part of the ocean. AI cannot compete with the Word of God and the Holy Spirit.
Do you realize that nothing I have presented has actually been addressed and refuted yet? Premils know that it is factual. They just don't like it.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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Do you realize that nothing I have presented has actually been addressed and refuted yet? Premils know that it is factual. They just don't like it.
Yes, I'm well aware of that. All you get in response are claims that are made with no supporting evidence being offered. You're the only one making any actual effort to see what it was that the early church fathers believed. Premils just make assumptions about it without doing any research.