22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[Spiritual Israelite]

Race is not the sole criteria for ethnicity, which also includes common history, language, culture, religion, mores, taboos, and commonly accepted social dynamics. God made a promise to the nation of Israel, which shared a common history with God, in what the Bible describes as a marriage relationship, she had a covenant relationship with him based on the law of Moses, which not only prescribed morality and ethics, it also prescribed holidays, mores, and cultural practices.

And it isn't a matter of "if" but "when". She will not abide in unbelief. She will come to saving faith.

Romans 11 is not talking about nations having faith and being grafted in to the cultivated olive tree and nations being in unbelief and being cut off from the olive tree. No, that would be nonsense. The branches of the cultivated olive tree represent individuals who are saved. It is individuals branches that are grafted in or cut off because of faith or the lack thereof. So, you are reading Romans 11 in the wrong context.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You sound like a man who is unable to give reasons for what you believe.

Yet, I do that all the time, so you couldn't possibly be more wrong. I back up my views with scripture as much as anyone here and you still say this to me? Unbelievable.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, of course. But in the end, Israel will be populated exclusively with the elect.

Why, is that a problem?

Because it's unbiblical. Of course, no one would have a problem with it if that actually happened, but it's not going to happen. Paul indicated that he hoped some of them would be saved (Romans 11:14). And then he turned around just a little later and said they will all be saved? That's nonsense. It's all spiritual Israel that is saved and continues to be saved. He referenced an OT prophecy regarding all Israel being saved (Isaiah 59:20-21) and that prophecy has had an ongoing fulfillment for almost 2,000 years now. The covenant that it talks about which provides the forgiveness of sins and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is the new covenant which has been in effect for a long time already. You are acting as if Paul was giving a new prophecy in Romans 11:25-26, but the reality is that he was explaining how the Old Testament prophecy from Isaiah 59:20-21 was being fulfilled and would continue to be fulfilled.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Ever notice that I don't use trigger words like "indoctrinated"?

Satan is not bound. Reference 1 Peter 5:8

The rest of your assertions are unsupported by the verses you cited.

Why would you quote 1 Peter 5:8 but not 1 Peter 5:9?

1 Peter 5:8 Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. 9 Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that the family of believers throughout the world is undergoing the same kind of sufferings.

What happens if you resist the devil while "standing firm in the faith"?

James 4:7 Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8 Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

He must flee from you if you do that. Was it like this in Old Testament times? Absolutely not. Why does he need to flee if we resist him? Because we're so scary? No. It's because we have the Holy Spirit dwelling in us. He has to back down when we stand strong with the Holy Spirit's power. And the reason for this is because Satan is bound. He can't do anything to stop us and to stop the spread of the gospel throughout the world because he is bound from doing so. That is the context of him being bound from deceiving the nations. In Old Testament times, he didn't have to deal with the Holy Spirit's power working through God's servants who are preaching the gospel, so he was able to keep the world in spiritual darkness and keep them as slaves to the fear of death (Hebrews 2:14-15).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Negative. Paul argues in the book of Galatians that salvation is based on a promise God made to Abraham. We are not saved based on a promise made to Israel. And while it can be said that the promise made to Israel is fulfilled in Christ, we can not say that Gentiles have replaced Israel.

No one is saying that the Gentiles have replaced Israel. What scripture teaches is that the Gentiles have joined with Israelite believers in one body as fellow heirs of God's promises. Why don't you understand this? It's explicitly taught in the New Testament repeatedly.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Revelation is the fulfillment of all the promises God made to Israel. Gentiles are tangentially involved, but it's a stretch to call them "priests."

No, it absolutely is not a stretch. That is exactly what Revelation 1:5-6 indictaes. John was clearly writing to both Jew and Gentile believers in the book of Revelation. The book was addressed to churches that had Jew and Gentile believers in them and the book was address to all of them.

Israel had a priesthood that was a big part of the OT, but no mention of a priesthood among the Gentiles. But one thing is sure, Revelation has nothing to do with the Christian church.

There is one thing much more sure than that. You are completely wrong. Who else but the Christian church are those "who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus" (Rev 12:17) and are "the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus" (Rev 14:12)?

Their future is described in Paul's letters and it is quite a bit different than that of Israel and the Gentiles.

Please elaborate on this. What leads you to this conclusion?

I know about the seven "churches" (which should properly be translated as "assemblies"), but if you read the messages to them you will see many connections with the OT. Many things are said to them are radically different than the epistles of Paul which are written to the Christian church.

Such as?

 

[Phoneman777]

Say what now? What you're saying has nothing to do with anything I said, so what was your point here?

Hey "bro", that is not taught anywhere in scripture. Passages like Daniel 12:1-2 and John 5:28-29 indicate that the wicked will be judged right after being resurrected. And verses like John 6:40 and John 12:48 indicate that the righteous will be resurrected and the wicked will be judged on the same "last day". How do you reconcile that with your view?

You said that the wicked will bow to Jesus "right after" the Second Coming when they run to the rocks and mountains, right?

 

[jeffweeder]

No one is saying that the Gentiles have replaced Israel. What scripture teaches is that the Gentiles have joined with Israelite believers in one body as fellow heirs of God's promises. Why don't you understand this? It's explicitly taught in the New Testament repeatedly.

Absolutely.

John 10:15

1. just as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
   
   
2. John 10:16
   And I have other sheep that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice; and they will become one flock, with one shepherd.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I see you are so biased against anything I say that you spent no more that a few seconds considering what I said.

That's not true at all. It just so happens that I disagree with pretty much everything you say. So be it. That's just the way it is sometimes. But, it isn't because I'm not spending any time reading what you're saying.

I guess it's much easier to stick with tradition than to do honest scholarly research.

Who told you that I don't do research? I have done plenty and I could not care less about tradition. Don't act like you know me. You don't know me even a little bit.

I've been where you are. I was there for many years.

I highly doubt that. Where do you think I am?

But when I was presented with the ideas I'm holding forth here I took much time to verify it what I was told was true or not (read about the Bereans in Acts). When I did that I saw that Revelation is indeed nothing more than the final fulfillment of the promises God made to Israel.

Why are you acting like you have studied these things and I have not? That's nonsense. I have most likely studied this just as much as you have. So, our differences of opinion have nothing to do with how much each of us have studied these things.

God's plan for the Christian church is radically different than that of Israel. I can say without reservation that the Bible story makes way more sense when people and times are kept straight. Mix 'em together and there is nothing but confusion.

His plan for all mankind including for the people of Israel and the people of all other nations is for them to be saved through His Son Jesus Christ. Any other plan you believe in is not biblical.

It is a huge assumption that those "who hold fast to the testimony about Jesus" are the Christians.

LOL!!! That is not a huge assumption at all. Who else holds fast to the testimony about Jesus except for Christians? LOL!!!

That's building an entire doctrine of one verse, and that with no justification whatsoever other than preconceived biases. We read the word "church" and immediately glam onto the Christian "church" (better translated "assembly",) never giving one thought that maybe it's talking about some other assembly altogether. Well it actually is talking about some other assembly than the Christian church. Read the letters closely and you will see tons of references to the OT Jewish nation while seeing virtually no references to anything Paul said to the Christians. It's quite obvious to those with eyes to see and ears to hear.

It's quite obvious to me that you don't have eyes to see or ears to hear. Very obvious.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You said that the wicked will bow to Jesus "right after" the Second Coming when they run to the rocks and mountains, right?

They will be killed at that point (as if they can actually hide from Jesus...no) and then resurrected to be judged shortly after just as Revelation 20:9-15 depicts. Is there something difficult to understand about that?

 

[WPM]

They will be killed at that point (as if they can actually hide from Jesus...no) and then resurrected to be judged shortly after just as Revelation 20:9-15 depicts. Is there something difficult to understand about that?

Agreed.

 

[Truth7t7]

So


So, who populates your supposed future millennium?

It's the New Heaven And Earth at the return of Jesus Christ, it appears you haven't been watching my postings

A Millennial Kingdom on this earth is a fabricated fairy tale of man

 

[Truth7t7]

In my view, the earth is burned up but the planet remains. Right?

You desire to see the earth remaining,so you can have a Millennial Kingdom that will never take place

Scripture below teaches the earth is "dissolved" to its very "elements"

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 

[Truth7t7]

Negative. Paul argues in the book of Galatians that salvation is based on a promise God made to Abraham. We are not saved based on a promise made to Israel. And while it can be said that the promise made to Israel is fulfilled in Christ, we can not say that Gentiles have replaced Israel.

God is not only going to keep his promise to Abraham, he is also going to keep his promise to Israel.

Let me be specific. God intends to restore his holy name by bringing the Hebrew people back to the land; remove their hearts of stone and give them a heart of flesh; clean them up and take away idolatry; pour out his spirit on them; and restore their fortunes, i.e. good children, good crops, good wives, etc.

This promise only makes sense in the context of the Hebrew experience.

Your claims are a zionist fairy tale

Scripture teaches only the "Remnant" Jew is going to be saved, the rest are blinded by a spirit of slumber

Yes you can continue to pretend as if the scripture below is non-existant, and run off into the zionist land of all Jews are saved, holding hands and skipping down the yellow brick road to the Kingdom of Oz

Romans 11:7-8KJV
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

 

[jeffweeder]

You desire to see the earth remaining,so you can have a Millennial Kingdom that will never take place

Scripture below teaches the earth is "dissolved" to its very "elements"

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

How can people remain to populate the earth during the future mill if its a ball of flames at the promise of his coming?
Good post.

 

[Truth7t7]

There are actually 2 kingdoms mentioned in Revelation. There is the millennial kingdom in chapter 19 & 20. This one is absolutely on the earth. It will last 1,000 years (Rev 20:4). The other one is the everlasting kingdom and that one will be on a new earth (Revelation 21:1-2, New Jerusalem "comes down"). As you said, the old earth will be destroyed once and for all and a new one created. All God wants to do is get back to the Garden of Eden which is on the earth.

Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist)

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[Truth7t7]

How can people remain to populate the earth during the future mill if its a ball of flames at the promise of his coming?
Good post.

Hey your catching on!

There isn't going to be a future millennial kingdom on this earth "After" the return of Jesus Christ, it's a fabricated fairy tale of man

Jesus returns in fire and final judgment, dissolving this earth by fire (The End)

It will be a New Heaven and Earth after the return of Jesus, the wicked will be in the lake of fire (Eternity)

 

[jeffweeder]

Hey your catching on!

There isn't going to be a future millennial kingdom on this earth "After" the return of Jesus Christ, it's a fabricated fairy tale of man

Jesus returns in fire and final judgment, dissolving this earth by fire (The End)

It will be a New Heaven and Earth after the return of Jesus, the wicked will be in the lake of fire (Eternity)

Hi
Have never believed otherwise.
I caught on over 30 years ago.
God bless.

 

[CadyandZoe]

He's talking about Israelites. "Children of the promise" includes both Jews and Gentiles. (Galatians 4:28)

He is not talking about each and every child of promise. Only those children of promise whom God will put in Palestine so that he might sanctify his name.

Remember the Lord's prayer, "Our father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name . . ." The Lord taught us to pray that God would sanctify his name. The father will sanctify his name as specified in Ezekiel 36. Mediate on that passage.

 

[CadyandZoe]

No. Totally edifying and non offensive. Right?

Speak to the argument.